Knowing i'll be starting HRT this fall, i met with a local electrologist this morning. Her shop had received excellent reviews on Yelp and i was surprised when a departing customer addressed me, saying that i was in good hands. This electrologist only uses the thermal method and yes i know the other two methods are better. There are slim pickings for lectrolysis shops here in the central valley.

I've two questions.
1. She mentioned that electrolysis produces small scabs. I wasn't aware of this in all my research. is this common?
2. She said that each time a hair follicle is zapped, it's not entirely killed (this is absolutely contrary to what i've read). She said most of it is killed and that the hair will regrow, although thinner. Each continued zapping of that follicle works toward killing the entire follicle. Is this true? I thought one zap and the follicle is dead.

thanks,

Laura

I hope someone else comes along with these answers because I want to know too.

Electro for me usually doesn't leave any scabs. It happened once on the side of the mouth, and that's turned into a scar - I'm furious about that. It wasn't a scab in the normal sense but a sort of yellow crust. That sounds vile, but it's the only way to describe it.

Generally, no scabs, just swelling and a kind of tight sensation, which is gone the next day. If you've ever been smacked in the face? You get that tight swollen feeling where the upper lip has hit the teeth. It's a similar feeling.

Yes, you will have to go back over old ground a couple of times to really clear it. My upper lip for instance seems to have decided to return heavier than before. I think it cauterizes the blood to the hair root, and it just depends whether the cauterization was enough first time, and most often isn't.

Does anyone know, with lasers, if you've had zero results after two sessions, does that mean it isn't working? Two sessions out of six - with zero result.

1 - It may produce some scabs.

2 - It really depends on the follicle.  Some require multiple treatments to kill the hair off completely. It depends on the thickness of the hair, the length of the zap and the growth phase.

I've had in excess of a hundred hours and I have many more hours to go.  I wish it was one zap one kill.  If that was the case, I'd be done already.

Quote from: I Am Jess on September 07, 2016, 04:57:38 PM
1 - It may produce some scabs.

2 - It really depends on the follicle.  Some require multiple treatments to kill the hair off completely. It depends on the thickness of the hair, the length of the zap and the growth phase.

I've had in excess of a hundred hours and I have many more hours to go.  I wish it was one zap one kill.  If that was the case, I'd be done already.

Have you had any scarring as well as scabbing?

I'm taking a break, because I don't know if I can deal with scars on my face. I had none, and have been fastidious about skincare since before I was even in my teens. Now, thanks to electro, I have one scar. I'm hoping it's just a one off?

I haven't noticed any scars and scabbing has been minimal.
I really have no choice.  It's electrolysis or nothing because of my age and lack of any color in my hair.

Quote from: alex82 on September 07, 2016, 05:00:13 PM
Have you had any scarring as well as scabbing?

I'm taking a break, because I don't know if I can deal with scars on my face. I had none, and have been fastidious about skincare since before I was even in my teens. Now, thanks to electro, I have one scar. I'm hoping it's just a one off?

Quote from: I Am Jess on September 07, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
I really have no choice.  It's electrolysis or nothing because of my age and lack of any color in my hair.

I'm in the same boat. At 65, my facial hair is all grey. Thank you all for your comments. i'm a bit calmer now

Laura

Quote from: alex82 on September 07, 2016, 04:53:13 PM
Does anyone know, with lasers, if you've had zero results after two sessions, does that mean it isn't working? Two sessions out of six - with zero result.

Eek!

What colour is your hair Alex? I have a 98% dark brown mixed with a bit of ginger and occasional blonde but it's pretty consistently dark. I was hoping to book a six session laser course (not IPL) using wowcher or groupon or something and clear my face over the next months.

Electro is that much more expensive at the minute that I just haven't explored it. Plus it seems super time consuming and slow but i guess it's all worth it in the end yada yada yada. Scabs and scarring has me totally freaked out though.

I am 52 and am having a mix of Laser and Electrolysis

My Technician goes for a one zap one kill, if however the hair is in the wrong part of the growth cycle then it will come back. There is only one part of the growth cycle where you can kill the hair. This is why you will appear to get regrowth. Once a  follicle is dead then it is gone...it cannot regrow. Same thing if it is already in the dying off phase then you can't kill it, if it is dormant stage then definitely you can't kill it.

I get a small amount of scabbing but very tiny and never lasts more than a few days. I have had two different people work on me and both have left roughly the same amount of marking. Although the latest woman is really fast she also tends to keep the current up which hurts more but she can be more effective this way(so she says), especially as we have not had the first full clearance completed yet so the hair is very tough. Not far away from first full clearance but not yet.

Hope that helps

Liz

Quote from: lauraelliott1951 on September 07, 2016, 03:56:04 PM
1. She mentioned that electrolysis produces small scabs. I wasn't aware of this in all my research. is this common?

I had full facial hair removal via what I believe is the Thermolysis method (not Blend). I've also had Blend on some areas of arm and chest but most of my hours in the electrologist's chair were under Thermolysis for beard/facial hair. All other areas, legs, arms, chest successfully used laser. Facial hair was unaffected by laser which is why I sought electrolysis. I am very pleased with the results of all the work.

In my journey of facial hair removal, once in a while, there would be a little blood appearing out of a pore (like a tiny dot which dries)... so technically that's probably a "scab" but it was more about healing after a pore had a needle stuck into it and zapped. I have not seen that often, but more so in the early stages where I went into like 3 hours sessions of significant clearing.

Interestingly, when I would use a product with Zinc Oxide (recommended by my electrologist) on my face the evening after the appointment, my face would rarely have those dots in the morning. Something about the Zinc seemed to help my face heal faster overnight. After seeing that, I religiously went to sleep at night with a cream containing Zinc all over my face... I'd wake up shower it off and my face was looking much better than if I'd skip that. No understatement, I found that cream to be a night/day difference. I personally found it to be a little secret which helped me.

Regardless of any post-treatment used, I've heard it's critical to keep your hands away from picking at your face, especially those healing areas with that dot-like scab... which I've seen go after a day or so with cream, or several days without. But in all cases, I kept my hands away... I hear picking or touching those can lead to scarring. I guess that's like any scab. 

As odd as it may sound, I used this Baby Bee Diaper Rash Ointment product which contains Zinc and was recommended by my electrologist...

http://www.burtsbees.com/Baby-Bee-Diaper-Rash-Ointment/792850030503,default,pd.html?cgid=diaperOintmentAndCare&start=1&q=#start=1

... there may be others but my electrologist told me most baby diaper rash creams contain zinc so that's how I ended up there.

For daytime, I'd use arnica cream as a lighter healing alternative.

I'd recommend asking your electrologist or doctor (like a dermatologist) for a recommended cream for post treatment... your derm may have something prescription containing zinc but maybe even something more... I don't know but worth trying.

On hindsight, or as I learned during the process, I sort of view all electrolysis as somewhat invasive to the skin and body, so I sort of look at it as "mini" or "micro" surgery of sorts. I think it tends to be discussed as if it's some outside only thing, a quick session, that's it, simple etc. but especially for full facial hair removal I feel it's more invasive than it is often discussed. Not a bad thing, but just saying... it's more than just dainty zapping... a needle is inserted into the follicle and does zapping or heating or whatnot...

All forms of electrolysis are therefore essentially wounding the body (to kill the follicles) to get rid of hair. I therefore learned quickly to respect the treatment and process by not taking "post-OP" facial care lightly. After a lengthy 2 or 3 hour session, or even 1 hour, my face had pores which had been entered into, and my face was red, more vulnerable, so it needed TLC. When given that TLC with the right electrologist or dermatologist recommended treatment, it healed quickly and well.

After treatments I learned not to touch my face with dirty hands... I'd wash first... like no shopping at the store then touching my face, for example. I treated my face as if in a sort of "post OP" that needed to be kept clean, away from germs etc. I think that approach paid off.

After electrolysis, I personally feel I observed the face as being more open and vulnerable for at least a day or more, so respecting the healing process just seemed best. Unfortunately, beyond talking directly with my own electrologists or dermatologist, I don't see much community discussion on robust post-electrolysis care. Maybe it's out there, but I felt I learned a lot from my electrologist which I felt was not in any FAQs I'd read prior. I think most folks just figure out what works, hopefully getting great input from friends or the electrologist/dermatologist.

In short, ask your electrologist or dermatologist about post-electrolysis treatment plans, but also remember your face is healing from something somewhat invasive after electrolysis sessions.

Quote from: lauraelliott1951 on September 07, 2016, 03:56:04 PM
2. She said that each time a hair follicle is zapped, it's not entirely killed (this is absolutely contrary to what i've read). She said most of it is killed and that the hair will regrow, although thinner. Each continued zapping of that follicle works toward killing the entire follicle. Is this true? I thought one zap and the follicle is dead.

Yes, true... electrolysis is known and proven to be eventually permanent for any given follicle but it takes time to hit each such follicle the required number of times. The "required number of times" is unknown beyond estimates... each person and follicle is different, but your electrologist should be able to give an estimate.

I've heard, and personally experienced, about 1 year of regular sessions for complete facial removal, where "complete" here means that after about 1 year I still experience some very minor growth but it is so little I can go much longer between sessions, or where tweezing becomes viable for in between sessions... for example, if I skip tweezing for a few days, there's relatively little tweezing... just some hairs here/there. It's amazing... think about that, days or weeks pass and no beard or anything, just some hairs here/there. So that's sort of what the one year point was like in my case. I'm at two years now but have had few sessions in the last year so that's a testament to the process. I'm sort of still at the one year mark in that sense, but it's still great nonetheless.

I feel grateful to have found my electrologist... she cares, knows about good natural face creams and that sort of thing... I felt lucky to be in her care and I feel so happy to have endured those crazy long sessions in the beginning and not to have to deal with all that hair now. I can wear light foundation now, which I always wanted to do... I don't like pancake stuff for regular use... but I also go out often without any coverage and like who I see!

So I give electrolysis a huge thumbs up. Just do your research, check in with your doctors, find the right electrologist who you feel comfortable with, and take care of yourself throughout the process.

Best of luck with your treatments! 

(I can never manage to keep it short.... please forgive me...  )

Quote from: alex82 on September 07, 2016, 04:53:13 PM


Does anyone know, with lasers, if you've had zero results after two sessions, does that mean it isn't working? Two sessions out of six - with zero result.

I have had about 10 laser sessions, The only real hair I have left is on my upper lip and chin, both of which took an absolute hammering under the laser last session. If I look carefully I may notice some damaged hairs, I had my treatment about 7 days ago and would expect to start shedding next week, I can already see a number of black hairs that won't shave correctly and look weird. I would expect a great result this time, will have to wait and see.

Two sessions I couldn't see much but by about the 5 or 6th I could really notice the difference. I wouldn't have kept going otherwise.

Unfortunately I don't think we pay enough attention to the hair cycles when thinking about the results we are getting. Out of the 3 Phases there is only one in which the hair can he successfully killed. Then consider the huge number of hair cells we have thanks to the genetics of having male skin and male hair patterns initially. It is a war of attrition, getting the hairs in the right cycle in the first place is tricky enough then the method needs to be correct each and every time it is applied(skill of operator) for a successful kill. Good operator , right skin type, right hair type and correct method, all play a factor.

I am carefully scrutinising my current laser results because I have now completed 10 sessions which I was told should be enough to make a noticeable difference.(First thoughts are yes I have heaps less) So will know in another 2 weeks the final results...but I suspect that I will still need a few more sessions. I know it is making a big difference to the number of dark hairs on my face. It is very patchy and all new growth, so it is finer and easier to remove than the original. Each session seems to have more and more area's that are either clear or have only grey hair.

Liz

I think that the incidence of scabs has a lot to do with both the skill of the electrologist and the type of skin that you have. The only way to really know is to have a session, follow the after care advice, and see what happens.

I have friends that have gone to the very same electrologist that I use (a very well known one with many trans clients here in L.A.) and they have had some issues with scabs; other friends that have used the same electrologist have had none. It seems to be luck of the draw.

I have very sensitive skin and it's all I can do to stay put on the table for an hour because of the pain - but I rarely get scabs afterward. I usually I get some swelling afterward and red dots appear after a couple of days but thats about it.

Since laser was mentioned i'll give my .02 - I had a year of high quality laser and it did clear my face, but eventually the hair returned - thus, the electro sessions i'm having now. The laser did help to ease my dysphoria during my early days of transition so I don't consider it a complete waste of money, but it's a year wasted that I could have been doing electro instead.

In an electrolysis session, only follicles in the growth (anagen) phase are treated.  They number only about half the follicles on your face.  The rest are in the resting (catagen) phase and will emerge over a period of several months. 

It usually takes more than one electrolysis treatment to kill a follicle on the face.  This is especially true for thermolysis (flash) which, depending on the skill of the electrologist, has a kill rate less than 15%.  Blend provides a higher kill rate, rising as the galvanic action is prolonged.  Kill rates near 70% are achievable.

My electrologist has experienced wide variation in kill rates from client to client.  Apparently,  the patient's own physiology is an important factor, too.  A hair is produced from one of many stem cells in the follicle bulge.  It's not enough to kill the hair that is currently growing.  You have to kill all the stem cells in that follicle.  That is hard to do with thermolysis because the probe must be inserted precisely to where the stem cells reside.  Some electrologists will crank up the power level to increase the likelihood of destroying the stem cells.  Some will do two or three pulses as the probe is withdrawn to better the chance of making a hit.  Unfortunately, damage is done to the surrounding dermal cells, as well, which can sometimes lead to scarring.

Blend modality is much less likely to cause skin damage because the kill mechanism is completely different.  The application of an electrical current from the probe's tip through the body produces a caustic fluid (lye) that runs down the hair shaft to the papilla near which the stem cells are hiding.  The heated lye is very effective in destroying the follicle while not affecting the surrounding dermis cells.  Therefore, no scarring.  Even a novice electrologist can get good results with blend.  Unfortunately, an electrologist can treat at most 300 hairs an hour using 12-second blend vs  as many as 2000/hour using flash.  That makes using blend way too expensive to use in the early phases of facial hair removal.

I have recently completed my 28th full face and neck clearing since beginning electrolysis 22 months ago.  I've undergone 225 hours of treatment using both flash and blend modalities on a very disciplined schedule.  The first clearing took 32 hours which means some 50,000 hairs were treated using flash.  That's way too many hairs to treat with flash at one time, and many read spots and some scabbing was the result.  My beard was simply too dense for full clearing at one time.  Most first timers need only 24 hours to fully clear their face and neck.

My most recent full face & neck clearing took 5 hours using only 12-sec blend.  1500 hairs were treated.  It would have taken less than an hour using flash thermolysis.  So after 22 months and 225 hours of electrolysis, + or - 95% of my facial hair has been permanently removed.  It will take several more treatments to kill off the remaining telogen hair when it resumes growth.

Facial hair removal has been the most challenging aspect of my transition.  The time involved, the expense, and the pain.  Nothing else compares, and I've done it all.

thank you all for your detailed responses. I'm glad your answers align with those i received, although i'm a bit petrified about this whole process lasting 300+ hours. I've read where some people pay up to $20K for electrolysis, which is about what it will cost for FFS later.

Laura

Hi Laura,

Clara Kay's response is very similar to my experience and understanding. It really depends on your facial hair and skin type.  I just finished electrolysis. I had a light density, salt-and-pepper beard.  It took 50 hours over two years, with a bunch of laser sessions thrown in, or about two hours a month.  It cost me a little over $6300. My electrologist, who is very trans-experienced, told me more than once that she really liked the approach we took, because she got to clear any regrowth as we went, and the trauma to my skin was minimized.  She used primarily thermolysis, but some blend.  Towards the end, she used blend primarily for the untreated hairs, and thermolysis for the thinner regrowth hairs.  I never had any scarring or scabbing. I would be horrified if I did.

With kindness,

Terri

Quote from: CallApril on September 08, 2016, 03:45:47 AM
Eek!

What colour is your hair Alex? I have a 98% dark brown mixed with a bit of ginger and occasional blonde but it's pretty consistently dark. I was hoping to book a six session laser course (not IPL) using wowcher or groupon or something and clear my face over the next months.

Electro is that much more expensive at the minute that I just haven't explored it. Plus it seems super time consuming and slow but i guess it's all worth it in the end yada yada yada. Scabs and scarring has me totally freaked out though.

Unfortunately, it's every colour - from blackish (Italian grandfather) through brown (Irish grandmother) to red (English grandmother) and blonde (English grandfather) and even premature! greying (maternal gran and paternal grandfather both started going grey in their 30's - so I've coped the lot, so to speak. I had hoped the laser would wipe the darker ones. So far it hasn't.

I emailed the clinic and she called, seemed surprised when she asked how long was it before you had to shave afterwards, and I said 'the next morning, like normal'. I did get a deal on it, but I'll be really hacked off if nothing happens, it still wasn't cheap and she's kind of got charlatan written all over her - she's warned me twice now that electrolysis isn't permanent (it is), but I've paid two thirds of it now, so I'll at least have to have that number to see if anything improves.

Scabs I don't really mind, that's temporary and it hasn't really happened, I imagine they'd only be as tiny as the needle. What did happen the last time was this horrible yellow coloured crust, sort of like wet sugar (I very gently touched it in horror) - and that has scarred.

I didn't do anything different - I drove straight home, put on the same betnovate ointment, went to sleep on fresh pillows, exfoliated three days later with a gentle Clinique scrub, and it scarred.

There's no way I could cope with a face of scars and pitting. That's just not in the boundaries of acceptability to me, so I don't know what to do. Plus the boredom of it, and I don't like the woman doing it much - she loves to talk, and most of it isn't very nice to listen to - I know all about her other transgender clients, and their names and occupations etc, her hatred of Israeli's, and her extensive views on housing benefit fraud.

Last time I went she must've just read something in The Sun about one of those mythical one legged, blind Afghan lesbians with seven children to twelve different fathers getting a house in Mayfair, because that was all she talked about.

I'll probably try somewhere else. I thought about going to Antwerp and having the 8 hours a day for four days straight, but they don't have a space until January, and it's even more expensive now thanks to the Brexiteers efforts to trash the exchange rate.

I thought over Christmas I'll be back in London, so I could go heavy on it there. The only place willing to do a six hour appointment wanted £750, compared to eight hours a day four days straight, for €3,000 in Belgium. Probably works out roughly the same, couple of hundred more expensive in London for the total time added up.

The other thing I looked at was carbon dying - so you wax out everything, put black dye in/on, and it dyes the root as it starts to grow. Then zap the lot with lasers. But nobody has said whether it actually works, and I cancelled the eBay order for the carbon dye I'd bought by saying a child I was looking after must've ordered it for a joke. Felt bad, but they gave me a full refund.

My facial hair is salt and pepper. The pepper sometimes comes back and needs more than one zap.
According to my electrologist the grey is more likely to need only one zap.  But the grey is not as young and juicy as the pepper and so does not slide out as easily and is more likely to cause the red dots the next day. They heal fast and I haven't had any scarring.

In short - mostly grey?  Better and cheaper.

Quote from: Jane Emily on September 08, 2016, 06:55:05 PM

In short - mostly grey?  Better and cheaper.

oh, in my case this would be good news since i'm all grey.

Thanks,

Laura