Quote from: ActionLiz on November 21, 2016, 12:04:18 AM
I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

I completely agree with this. I'm not a scriptural dogmatic - its not inerrant and not accurate on so many things in my opinion. Still it give us a decent understanding of our relationship to God, the spirt likely has to do the rest.

Quote from: Deborah on November 21, 2016, 01:42:02 PM
The New Testament, specifically Paul, tells Christians to admonish each other for the other's sins.  It also tells them to eject the ones that do not listen to them.

i like the rainbow and lollipops version of God as much as everyone else does, but as deborah points out it is not always so in the bible. my father explained this to me as well. he would probably not be happy i cheated using the internet, but i wanted to find something closer to what he taught me. there did come a point he told me. i would have to read the bible myself, and come to my own interpretation of the bible and relationship with Jesus Christ. i have not been able to do so yet but i would like to some day. i did try to a few times but not so easy for me having to read paragraphs over and over again to truly grasp them. this web page seems to be the closest to what my father explained Jesus Christ to be. i suppose he favored the forgiving Jesus Christ over the vengeful God.

http://newlife.id.au/christian-theology/the-ultimate-sin/

As far as salvation and eternal life goes, unbelief is the sin that really matters!

In the Old Testament, the verses condemning people for cross-dressing are next to verses calling for stoning of children who defy their parents, or who carry something heavy on Saturday.

As for the Apostle Paul, he didn't just condemn homosexuality but in the same paragraphs, all promiscuity, gossip, fear, lack of faith, women speaking in church, women ruling over men, women not wearing a head veil in church, and he further told women to stay at quietly at home and have children.

I actually went along with church stuff when little, although I read the Bible for myself and could see the inconsistencies, but once I read the original Hebrew and Greek I saw that all Jesus saying was that we also are God and can do whatever He does..the Prodigal Son story even says we are the same DNA as God, and all God has is ours. Jesus told people who were healed during his ministry that THEIR faith healed them, told us that if we told a mountain to jump into the sea, it must obey us.

No mention of something having to be "God's will" or that God did it for us. We are able to do it ourselves.

But I didn't have to be trans to get rejected by the church. When my husband dumped me and my two kids to run off with a younger woman I quickly found out what my fellow church members were really like. I was suddenly invisible, a second class citizen, ignored, while my husband never lost a church customer.

I suddenly could no longer take the sermons on how God controls everything, and whatever happens is to teach us a lesson (we are helpless victims).  Babies die because God has a plan (God kills people's kids to make them better Christians)..no personal responsibility-we are only victims of a capricious God. And teaching intolerance for wicked gays and Muslims.

I'm sure there are good churches, but I'm so over it by now.

I do love meditating with the Thai and going to Buddhist temples..so beautiful, peaceful, open air, animals wandering in and out, flowers and wild birds abundant on the temple grounds. Just being there puts one into a natural meditative state.

This is d bigot fanatical old world view... I am Catholic and I have consulted with a few priests on the issue and they reassured me that it is not a sin and when it comes to sexual relations he advised me to make it asloving as possible... I posted here our email correspondence in the past....

Your priests disagree with the Pope; kind of a big deal in the Catholic Church.




It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

The priest of the Catholic church i sometimes attend also does not see it as a sin. The churches are often more liberal than even this liberal leaning Pope.

The baptist church i sometimes attend - the pastor does not see it as a sin - a direct quote from him " it is medical care, how can it be a sin?". He is a decent friend of mine.

The Anglican (Episcopal but they identify as Anglican ) church i attend at times has a female pastor, also does not consider trans not a sin. I of course ask this because i am both curious and also don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, there are many church options.

Quote from: Raell on November 22, 2016, 06:37:41 AM
Jesus saying was that we also are God and can do whatever He does..

  Raell

  would this be why people take the passage "Vengeance is mine" and think it is theirs? or would there be more to it? i have been told it is not ours but it is for God.

  please forgive me for asking, and i see why you would leave the church that is awful and i think completely not Christ like what these people did.

p.s. my cousin became Buddhist a long time ago, she is a very happy person.

I am Catholic and as you know the Catholic church can be really strict about many many issues.... I left the church for yearsssss because of bad experiences and judgement from Priests but I can always feel the "call"to come back.... Let me just share my correspondence with the magnificent catholic priest that changed my life........I'll xxxxx names for privacy reasons.... Hope it helps someome that might be looking for answers.

Dear xxxxxx., ( Miss Lux)

The most common phrase in the whole of the Bible is "Don't be afraid."  I think that is so for a good reason, that we are so often afraid to lay our lives open to another, and often enough to God.  I can well understand your being afraid having been told those various things by priests.  There is no sin involved at all in having a sexual reassignment procedure.  As for sexual relationships in the future, I think the main thing is to trust in God's goodness and mercy, and to keep a watch on your own heart to see that your actions and relationships are as loving as they can possibly be.

Regarding going to confession to someone.  What part of the world are you living in.  It's a long shot, but depending where you are I may be able to find someone who would be sensitive to your needs.  The main thing is to trust in God's goodness and perhaps start to attend Mass again if you can find a community and Church that seems right for you.   I have people coming to see me in a few minutes so this will be grief for the moment. Let me know if you'd like to, what part of the world you live in and I may be able to follow something up for you then - I can't promise of course, but there may a path that might open up for you that way.

All good wishes.,
Father xxxxxx


PS - XXXXXX - we are who we are, and you can be sure that God unsterstands the journey of your heart and the need you had to make the changes in your life that you have made. So I'd encourage you to let go of any sense of God being unhappy with you because of your change of sexual identity.  God knows us intimately and understands better than we do ourselves our needs and the cries of our hearts.  So please relax about all that.  Life is too short and too precious to be ruined by other people's mis-judgements!

If we are true to our own deepest self, then we are in harmony with God's dream for us.
Father XXXXXX
----- Original Message -----


Dear Father Xxxx,

    First of all thank you for emailing back and I pray for your fast recovery from the shoulder surgery and thank you for touching lives and letting us see more of the Christ of love,compassion and forgiveness.

    I have been searching for answers for sometime now on and off but have given up many times due to frustration or perhaps for not wanting to know the painful truth. But recently I have been having a fervent desire to go back to the Catholic church, to receive the sacraments again but I am scared!!!!

I stopped attending mass, receiving communion,going to church for almost 7 years now but I never abandoned my faith in Christ, I continued to pray every night and  say my novena to St. Therese and introduce St. Therese to my friends and on several occasions I received the unexpected rose/petals from St. Therese  I dunno if it's  just a mere coincidence (3X)  but it helped  me to never let go of my faith in God.

   Father, I am xx years old a registered nurse here in the USA and I had a  sex reassignment surgery several years ago, male to female. The thoughts of going to hell and having disobeyed(?) Christ constantly bugs me every time I pray. I have searched and researched and I get contradicting response from theologians,Internet to Pat Robinson to religious friends.

    I want to go back to the Catholic Church and receive the Holy Communion again but I am scared reallyyyy scared to go to confession, I was traumatized!!! Before I stopped going to church I went to confession and  after having confessed my sins the priest from St. John Bosco  told me that my sins will not be forgiven if I don't cut my hair,go to counseling etc... ,What more now!!!! When I hand out novena's to St. Therese to some people I know a few told me that im giving novenas out but I am disobeying God  nor fixing my life for being a transsexual etc...

    I know you've heard and read about it and it is truly hard to understand unless you are one, Father I am not rationalizing but since I was a toddler/pre-schooler I have always felt I am a girl.It is not about  the attraction to boys but it is my very being is a girl ever since. >From the time I learned to pray I would pray to God to make me a woman when I wake up, every birthday wish, every Christmas wish every wishing well wish but after reality hits me that it is not possible and some started telling me I am going to hell my wishes and prayers to God changed to just take me or don't make me wake up anymore. I contemplated suicide many times but the fears of hell scared me.

    Father, I get conflicting answers is it a sin to have had a sex change surgery? Is it a mortal sin? How about the hermaphrodites/intersexed will they sin if they undergo corrective surgery?  I wanna go to confession  but scaaaaaaaaaared what if the priest refuse to give me absolution like before if unless I  become male again, then I will die with my sins, I won't be able to receive the holy communion forever? If I receive absolution I assume it is forgiven and im no longer living with that sin if it is a sin, so if I fall into temptation how will I confess it - I engaged in pre-marital sex or homosexual acts? I can't get married either in the eyes of God too, so every relationship with a man would be a sin too? Can I just confess directly to God or the sacrament of confession is a must in order to receive  the holy communion? Father is it possible to confess via phone just to get over this hump? I work every other weekend 12 hrs shift as a nurse, can I attend Friday night mass for those Sundays?

    Father enlighten me, help me ,I am lost and hurting.


Sincerely,
Xxxx

Quote from: Deborah on November 22, 2016, 09:09:59 AM
Your priests disagree with the Pope; kind of a big deal in the Catholic Church.




It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

The current Pope has not released any statement in particular about transsexuals... The Pope released a statement regarding homosexuals and it is more of love and acceptance rather than judgement.

He has lumped it all together with the phrase gender theory and addressed it here.

Quote56. Yet another challenge is posed by the var- ious forms of an ideology of gender that "denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family. This ideology leads to educational programmes and legislative enactments that promote a personal identity and emotional intimacy radically separated from the biological difference between male and female. Consequently, human identity becomes the choice of the individual, one which can also change over time.   . . .
Let us not fall into the sin of trying to replace the Creator. We are creatures, and not omnipotent. Creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.

AMORIS LÆTITIA, pg 44, https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf , 19 Mar 2016



It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I found this recording of Alan Watts to be of interest to the conversation. It may be long, but it's an interesting perspective on the whole Christianity/Sin thing.

Quote from: Deborah on November 23, 2016, 12:31:00 AM
He has lumped it all together with the phrase gender theory and addressed it here.
AMORIS LÆTITIA, pg 44, https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf , 19 Mar 2016

Also, there is this:

Speaking to a group of Polish bishops, Pope Francis delivered a harsh critique of teaching children they can choose their gender identity.

"Today, children are taught this at school: that everyone can choose their own sex," Francis said last week, according to the Catholic Herald and other news organizations that read a Vatican transcript of the closed-door meeting. "God created man and woman; God created the world like this and we are doing the exact opposite."

Teaching children that they can pick their gender, Francis said, is "terrible."
-Washington Post
dateline 8/3/2016

QuoteTeaching children that they can pick their gender, Francis said, is "terrible."

Well, there's the problem.

Transgender children are not picking their gender.  They're discovering that their gender doesn't match the structure of their body.  They are realizing that their assigned gender is not their correct gender.  There's precious little choice in this.

Discovering that once has a medical problem and seeking assistance in resolving it is not "terrible."

I agree with you.  Two billion other people agree with him. :-(


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

personally, I think quite a few Christians would be pretty surprised what Christ actually thought if he came back and gave his opinion

Quote from: Deborah on November 23, 2016, 08:16:59 PM
I agree with you.  Two billion other people agree with him. :-(

It's the hat.  I clearly need a much bigger hat.  Yeah, that's the ticket!

Quote from: stephaniec on November 23, 2016, 08:23:51 PM
personally, I think quite a few Christians would be pretty surprised what Christ actually thought if he came back and gave his opinion

agreed,

Archangel Michael who appeared before me today in person as a angel, yes in person I am not here to be sarcastic and will happily answer this on a polygraph machine. Made a request for me to post the following statement from him on here. He asked me to post it asap out of concern for members here:

Being trans is not a sin and you are loved by me and the other angels and archangels. If you need support or guidance or healing or protection ask for me. I am not allowed to intervene unless invited by you.

I stand ready to help unconditionally 24/7/365 you are always loved unconditionally. We are working to advance trans rights a lot constantly you're situation as trans people will improve heavily over the next 10 years you are under our protection. All you need to do do is ask us for our help. We love you unconditionally as the gender you identify as you will never be punished for being trans you are loved. We ask you to contact us so we can help you.

We love you unconditionally as transwomen and transmen. Do what you need to do to be happy we support you always.

Love

Archangel Michael

Personally I never used to believe in Angels that was till January 2014 when Archangel Michael took the decision to make his presence known to me and turned up out of the blue and sent me into shock. Since that day I have been taught a lot by him as he took a decision to make me one his students.

He personally healed me of my depression, severe ptsd, anxiety and suicidal feelings without the use of conventional therapy or medication.

I am very grateful and thankful for this.

Thank you for all of your perspectives guys. I have been thinking about it more and honestly most Christians do not seem to research into gender dysphoria or transsexualism. I believe one of the most irresponsible things done by different churches is that pastors jump to conclusions that it is a sin and then they tell their congregations that. It becomes an echo chamber with no one really researching about it.

As has been said most Christians seem to link it to homosexuality which maybe because the trans community has allied themselves with the sexuality movement. So they assume they're pretty much the same thing.