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M to F how has your view of men changed with transition?

Started by HappyMoni, January 06, 2017, 10:18:42 PM

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MissGendered

#40
Hello Monica!

As you know, I am not trans, though I did live as an unwilling (and somewhat unknowing) FTM for most of my life. Therefore, take my input with a few grains of salt, my perspectives may be skewed, or perhaps universal, depending on context, or personal experience.

First, I always considered myself in my past life to be a lesbian in a man's body. I only found women attractive, and could not fathom why anybody would want a man, or what they saw in a man that was 'hot'. I lived and breathed for a woman's touch only. My particular physiology made performing with women very easy and I was known to be an exceptional lover. I made the best of it, but whenever I found a real connection with a woman, she was usually bi or bi-curious. But the idea of 'same-sex attraction' was foreign to me.

Fast forward to my de-transition, and at first, I became hyper-aware of the limits to the average male's world-view and  their apparent inability to connect with others on a personal level. Skip to my second year of HRT, and a rerun of "Thelma and Louise" on TV, and from somewhere out of nowhere, while a very young, six-pack abbed Brad Pitt is doing the nasty with Susan Sarandon, he looked toward the camera, and the angle of his jawline sent a HUGE, unexpected shivver down my spine. I was revolted by my own feelings, but my gf of 16 years, whom I still believed to be my forever soulmate, caught my reaction, and rightly foretold my future. "You are going to start wanting a man, aren't you?", she asked with great pain and anxiety. I denied it, not believing it would ever be possible, of course. Well, the fact was she was right. I broke up with her a while later for very valid reasons concerning her worsening treatment of me, she had become hateful and violent, so she had to go. I was still arrayed with what looked like male parts at the time, and from what I could see, only gay men or bi men were interested in me sexually. I was changing in a place where everybody had known me as 'male', though straight guys with no knowledge of my past had begun treating me very nicely, and had started flirting with me. It was very confusing, very, very confusing!

My gf lost sexual interest in me early on, when my thingy stopped working, but we made love like lesbians anyway, and though I could still please her, she could no longer please me. After the breakup, I was still hugely dysphoric about my parts, so I only dated trans-girls, but the same thing happened, I could please them, but I was getting nothing out of it except companionship and intimacy, but no real ooomph..

I dated a lot of men after I moved away from there, even slept with a few, but never let them do anything 'down there'. It was foolish, and dangerous, but we kept our parts hidden (it was actually only my alters doing this), as I was still in pieces. Once I had my vaginal canal reopened and my vulva reconstructed in Montréal, there was no turning back. I let the man I had been dating for the last 9 months go all the way with me 32 days after surgery, lol, I am laughing now, despite the risks and stitches and pain, but I couldn't wait another second to have him inside me. *blush* He never knew there was anything unusual about me, thank goodness.

So, I too went from being in competition with men, to being repulsed by men, to craving them. Yes, most guys are just guys, and that is a shame, but there are some guys that are very special, and until they see you as desirable beyond the bedroom, they hide their inner beauty from the world. Remember how you felt compelled to interact with the world pre-HRT? Most men only know this reality, and their best nature, if they have one, lol, is reserved for the girls they see as potential mates. Weirdly, I am not only attracted to 'hot' guys, but big, goofy, ugly guys, too. Sometimes the more ogre-like he is, the hotter I get, lol. Softer, more 'sensitive' guys turn me off. I want a man that is a man's man, ya know? Maybe that's just me, I dunno. So, from my perspective, I do best with heterosexual relationships. When living as a 'man', I only wanted women. Now that I am living as I was designed, I only really want a man. I still see women as divinely beautiful, but I feel no urge to be with one sexually. I love their company, and girl's night out is my fav evening of the week, but something about a man, MY man, soothes and stimulates me like no woman can.

Now, onto another topic, you had mentioned wanting to blast guys when they assume you know nothing about cars and guy stuff, right? Well, think that through before you do, because what may happen is that you mightl invalidate yourself as a woman in his eyes, not impress him, or so it has been in my experience. I was better at a lot of man stuff than most men will ever be, but never, ever, has revealing that fact helped me as a woman. If passing is your goal, take the advice given by another girl earlier in this same thread and apply it more broadly; "we don't do that". Any hint of male syntax can betray you. With your wife, this may not matter to you, but out in the world amongst males, it could be a problem. It's not just a female voice that secures passability, it takes 'proper' syntax, vocabulary, and staying with the appropriate topics, too. These are all possible 'tells' for people, men and women alike. Because I am on a gender-safe site, I am enjoying using whatever syntax that pops into my head, but if I were on a knitting site, or hanging out with the guys at a bar in real life, I would limit myself to traditionally female expressions, tones, vocabulary, and topics. It took a long time for me to realize the implications of content as well as manner in communication with other humans, but once I figured it out, my hetero-normalcy stopped coming into question. I know not everybody desires to be seen as hetero-normal, but my original core wiring is to the binary. Left to my own devices, I would have never strayed from a traditionally feminine role or lifestyle, so for me, unlearning every male trait and behavior is of paramount importance. But, your mileage may vary. As an aside, I have never heard a straight, cis woman use that expression, lol, so I should probably say something like "I dunno, maybe that's just me, who knows? Ha!"...

Yeah, I really need to get my act together, and just be the real me now, too. This is my time to shine! No more boy-talk for me, lol! ;-)

You have a lot of changes coming up in your life, Moni, and as somebody else said, "who know what will happen?".

Just be brave, be real, be open, and let yourself be your authentic self. Your wife may be okay with all this, maybe not, but that is for her to decide. What counts in the end is how well you treat each other, and how honest you are with yourselves, and each other, and how much you both grow as people. It will all work out, you'll see!

:-) MissyG





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pretty pauline

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 10, 2017, 01:35:30 PM
It is often repeated that orientation and being trans are two different things. If you take into account the mind frame of the trans person who has been desperately suppressing their female side only to spring forth looking for validation as a woman.
Does this make sense to anyone else, or am I off base here? I am motivated to understand this because I want to stay with my wife.
You've sort of answered your own question Moni, if you didn't have a wife that you love you might feel different, but you love your wife and want to stay with her.
It makes perfect sense to me validation as a woman. I had zero interest in men before transition, the thoughts of being with a man was eww ugh, but after transition that all change, I don't know why, maybe the way men treated me, a whole change of attitude and just being treated as a woman, very surreal the first time I kiss a man, it was like omg, I'm kissing a man, I'm now married to a man, a straight man that only wants to be with a woman, very reassuring for me as a woman, he is a very supportive husband, it's all down to indivdual experience.
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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JMJW

 Online there's no pesky male body to get in the way of having a cyber-heterosexual interaction with men, which I used to do since 2005, even before I realized I was trans (but had started reading the website "second type woman" just out of fascination. The rules are different in real life, where I'm socially held back by autism, making me celibate for all practical purposes.

I have noticed I don't relate to my best friend as well. He always wants me to go places, to bad it's Wrestling, Fighting in point Karate competitions - in the male category of course , and playing warhammer games with Beardy Mc Neckbeards.

Good times eh.  I remember him and me sparring and getting tossed around like a ragdoll by a fireman who literally weights twice as much as me and ripping the skin off the sole of my foot only to get up and attack again and again. I don't quit dammit.
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Tessa James

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 13, 2017, 06:21:07 PM
Tessa,
   I am not as far into my adjustment as you are. I am still very frequently running into situations that I have to figure out. I know how to deal with situations with men as a "male." I don't know how to react as myself, as crazy as that sounds. For example, when I am around men who did not know me before, I find myself not keeping eye contact for very long. I kind of act a bit shy. I don't know if this is perceived as flirting, which I have no intention of doing. I am very unsure as to how I am perceived, so I think I get shy. I imagine that maybe this is not too unusual for a newbie like myself. Added to this, I sometimes feel like I am walking a tightrope with my voice. I have had throat issues and it can be a bit unpredictable. Another reason I am shy right now. It's funny but, I am not worried about male bravado. I look forward to it in a way. I want to goof on it or perhaps at least call them on it. The moment someone talks to me like I know nothing about cars or sports or puts women down, I am going to have some fun. I love having the female perspective, I can't wait until I really get my bearings.  Anyone have any input on similar experiences or shyness? I wonder how long it takes for this to become old hat.
Monica

Hey Monica,

You're not at all crazy sounding to me.  Actually that sounds more typically feminine to be shy or reserved?  Just getting a woman's attention is a green light for some guys and all that might entail.  I have come to understand much more clearly why so many women don't even bother with simple eye contact.  As good as you are looking I would guess simply engaging a guy is enough stimulus to get a motor running.  The dating pool has deep and shallow ends right?

You sound really fun to me and I also like to sort of surprise people with being assertive and outspoken.  Don't take us/women for granted, we think and act outside the box too!  This is one reason I quit my voice lessons.  I am transgender and it is easy to figure out.  I have found that there are plenty of guys looking for people like us.  The more difficult part may be finding someone worthy of your attention and interaction.

While I also like to goof with guys and sometimes toy with people I really don't want to be manipulating people.  Having a woman's perspective while having lived as a man offers priceless insights.  I like a robust conversation with honest dialogue rather than fawning over a preening persona...too easy and too old. 

And what is flirting really?  Is being fun, engaging and witty the same as looking for a date?   Determining intentions is a big part of the dance...do I hear music?...all the time ;D ;D ;D
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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HappyMoni

You have all, in recent posts, both reassured me and scared the hell out of me. I have  some thinking to do. I will address one thing tonight. When I talked about standing up to men for my sports or car knowledge, my intention is not to go all "manly" on them. If they are drowning in their own superiority over females, I will stand up for my gender in my way. I am firmly on this side of the fence now, but have seen how things work on the other side. Because of where I work and live, men generally are pretty well behaved with their attitudes toward woman. Is that naive? Maybe.
Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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Fresas con Nata

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on January 10, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
This is such an interesting discussion!  When I began my transition, I figured I would be a lesbian, because I had zero interest in men as romantic or sexual partners.  After a few months on hormones, I noticed men a lot more.  I surprised myself on more than one occasion thinking to myself, "That guy is really cute!".  It was like, "Wait, who said that?!"

I'm at that point right now. I can't see myself ending up with a guy for much longer than a couple of weeks, just for fun, and I really crave falling in love with a woman. However I've already had that moment of "Wow who's that guy—wait a minute?!??!".

Funniest thing is, I haven't started HRT yet.
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josie76

Well Monica I'm still pre HRT but I know that backing away from the male positioning has let me see things about myself more clearly.
I do not find men physically attractive, but there is that female instinct that does seem to crave a man in a sexual nature. The idea of what a man does with a woman I find desirable even though the idea of a guy himself I find neutral at best and a bit disgusting at worst. Visually women light up the sexual part of my brain while men do not. I would have to rate myself as bi-curious because those darn female instincts are still there, lol.
If I were fully transitioned and a single person could I see myself being sexual with a man? Yes that would be a possibility, however a woman's touch is far more attractive to me. Either way I need an emotional connection and buildup to think about sex.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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Angela Drakken

Quote from: AnonyMs on January 13, 2017, 11:31:14 PM
I'm slowly tending towards the view that men are animals.
Honey, I've been aware of that my whole life. Transitioning has only solidified this fact. I'm amazed by some of the crap that comes out the mouths of FATHERS, even fathers WITH DAUGHTERS OF THEIR OWN. One of my co workers was bragging BRAGGING once that he wished he raped this girl once because he never got a second date with her! Utterly disgusting. This is someone I used to have something approaching respect for..

But I must be forgetting 'real men' dont talk like this. (When their wives or daughters are around anyway..)
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josie76

Omg Angela you are so right. Once at a customer location while I was working on a machine, one of the guys there was bragging about how his daughter in her prom dress was doable. But with a more foul way of putting it. That is if you can imagine a much more foul thing to come out of someone's mouth.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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Angela Drakken

Quote from: josie76 on January 16, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
Omg Angela you are so right. Once at a customer location while I was working on a machine, one of the guys there was bragging about how his daughter in her prom dress was doable. But with a more foul way of putting it. That is if you can imagine a much more foul thing to come out of someone's mouth.
Up north with my father once a long time ago, when he still tried to get me involved in GUY things, we stopped to gas up our bikes at a small gas station in the middle of no where. The gas station was a small family owned outfit and their young daughter served us. My own father in his mid to late 50s at this time is full on CREEPING on this poor girl while shes trying to help us. I think he may have even touched her on the lower back, shoulder and rear end. (Perfectly acceptable amirite?) Later back at camp hes bragging about how she was 'into him' and he couldve had her if he wanted.. this girl I would consider was too young for me. My father was, and is, still married to my mother, though he sleeps in front of the tv after staying up to the wee hours watching porn.

There's darkness in everyone. Some hide it better than others.
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MissGendered

When our histories are full of horrid examples of 'manhood', it is a natural thing to project this onto all men, if for no other reason than our own self protection.

I felt the same thing most of my life. I felt it more intensely when my femaleness became apparent, and even more when I became vulnerable through E therapy and beginning to dress female.

But, after MUCH therapy, and MUCH self-searching, and then the passage of time, and exposure to men that were not at all like my negative portrait of ALL men inside my mind, I found that I had been mistaken.

It is easy to be a hater. Especially when hateful examples of a type of person are everywhere. It is harder to overcome one's hatred, and harder yet to see that which we constantly refuse to allow to be true.

I know people of all stripes that hate. Many are within the LGBT, and if anybody should know better, it is those of us within a highly discriminated group of people.

All men are not animals, nor dogs, nor rapists, nor horrible people, nor horrible fathers.

If I were a man, I would find such talk disturbing and hateful in its own right.

Good men, honest men, healthy men, men that are prepared to take a bullet for a woman's honor, DO EXIST...

I try to not become that which I despise.
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HappyMoni

I had a pretty bad day today. I had an issue go badly. I feel about as dysphoric as I have since going fulltime. I have a deep down exhausted feeling that each day I walk among people who can never understand me. I cried much of the afternoon. So, why do I tell you all this? I tell you because I learned or maybe reaffirmed something I already knew. Love is most important. My partner held my hand, she bought me beautiful flowers. When I told her I felt like an idiot, she said go ahead and cry more. If any cis person can "understand," it is her. I started this thread with an observation and some worries about me in relation to men. I don't know if I will crave being the female in a straight sexual situation at some point. GCS is going to be life changing. I do know that my partner is more important than anything like that. To betray the relationship I have, would truly be the death of the person that I am.
I don't regret thinking about these things. Maybe others here have similar concerns. I do have my two cents to put in about grouping people together as good or bad or animals or whatever. I think it is a mistake. I don't want to be judged with all other trans people, or 50 year olds, or brown eyed people or any group. Judge me on me, what I do. I really think people here were more exaggerating for effect than actually thinking all of one group is this or that.
I hope people will continue to explore their feelings about attractions as it is confusing and maybe in flux.  Thanks for letting me say my peace.
Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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Tessa James

Thank you for the mature and sober reflections too.  Your partner sounds wonderful, one to cherish!
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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