Quote from: ainsley on February 02, 2017, 11:55:58 AM
I am probably guilty of the discrimination, albeit not consciously intentional.  I am a very judgmental person.  I am not specifically judgmental to trans*, though.  I just am to everyone.  My wife and I can spend the entire day on the bench in a mall and judge everyone that walks by.  It is entertaining to us.  Perhaps we should not be this way...I mean, she and I are in no way without flaws. LOL  Seiously. LOL    Never the less, I think we as humans do this sort of thing instinctively, and it is not always with the forethought of how others might be hurt or harmed by it.
..

What sort of judgement though? I believe judgement is sort a loaded word and can mean many things. The word judge at its base meaning is just to form an opinion or conclusion. We sit and people watch too and most of my judgement is like..."Cute boots" " "Nice outfit i'd totally wear that".

I think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 01, 2017, 09:58:48 AM
Back in the day, the biggest divide was between those who passed and those who didn't.  Now, of course, there are always exceptions -- but in general, those who didn't pass were jealous of those who did, and those who passed tended to discriminate against those who didn't -- namely, there would be no social contact out in public.

I think this is probably still true today.

It is so funny you say this because I am so nervous to go out to even the local support group for this very reason!  I have yet to go out as Paula and it is supposed to be a safe place but I just can't get past the feel I will be judged because I cannot pass BY those who are.  I am by no means saying they will and maybe I am just using that as an excuse. 
Paula

Quote from: PaulaLee on February 02, 2017, 12:48:11 PM
It is so funny you say this because I am so nervous to go out to even the local support group for this very reason!  I have yet to go out as Paula and it is supposed to be a safe place but I just can't get past the feel I will be judged because I cannot pass BY those who are.  I am by no means saying they will and maybe I am just using that as an excuse. 
Paula

Oh, I certainly hope the support group doesn't do that!

Support groups are supposed to SUPPORT.  The facilitator will try to keep the group meetings non-judgemental and supportive.  Therapist-run groups often require an intake session, one-on-one with the therapist and the candidate to join a group, specifically to make sure the person is appropriate for that group.

Even the non-therapy social support groups do this to a lesser extent, via peer pressure on members with an exclusionary lean to be more accepting and open.  It seems to work well in the groups I'm involved with.

We have, for example, members who due to their schedule constraints have had to come to meetups in drab.  No big deal, although we do try to be as sympathetic as possible to their discomfort.  We have non-binary members, with non-binary presentation.  We're comfortable with them and I hope they are comfortable with us.  We have gender-fluid members, a surprise at every meeting, "And, who are we today?"

Paula, the support group is there to support you.   Go, and go as you feel most comfortable.


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Quote from: RobynD on February 02, 2017, 12:26:35 PM
What sort of judgement though? I believe judgement is sort a loaded word and can mean many things. The word judge at its base meaning is just to form an opinion or conclusion. We sit and people watch too and most of my judgement is like..."Cute boots" " "Nice outfit i'd totally wear that".

I think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

Cute boots, nice outfit, stupid hair, bad makeup, ...you name it.  We judge.   We are catty bitches, most of the time.  But, we do it between just the two of us.  I think we do it to build ourselves up, not tear others down.   I think that is what humans do.  I think it is what women do more than men.  I would posit that all women do it in their mind, but filter what comes out so as to not offend.  I think I am guilty of that, and sometimes, perhaps, just maybe, my face or demeanor does not filter what my mind did.  I am not perfect, nor ill intended.  I think it is an inherent and societal-learned thing we do.  I certainly try to overcome it.  I, too, try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance).

I am clockable.  So?  I don't call people out for clocking me, either.  They inherently do it.  They aren't ill intended, either.  I have a higher than normal level of apathy about me.  And I am not above the fray; I clock other people, too....  I am guilty of "Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community".

So, my point is that we may experience Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community, but it may not be ill intended, but, rather, ill controlled instinctive behavior.  I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it. 

Quote from: ainsley on February 02, 2017, 01:53:29 PM

I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it. 

I may try to order that at the next girl's brunch Btw, i judge that i love the name Ainsley

Ha!  Awesome.  It is a lady's drink, to be sure.
And thank you for the compliment!!

In the early days of my de-transition, after coming out to a gay male friend, he told me had been noticing a person at his local grocery store, and he was convinced she was a trans girl. He was pretty excited to have 'spotted' her, and he asked me if he should approach her and let her know she was looking good. I blurted out "Gawd nooo, just leave her be". He was like, "Why? She should know that people are supportive, right?". Again, I was like "Gawd, nooo!!". He didn't understand that for many a trans person, NOT being noticed, especially early in transition, can be the absolute best outcome of any trip to the grocery store. I don't know if this girl was out and proud, or non-binary, or looking to live fully stealth, but I do know, that within our LGBT community, there exists side by side, very different ideas about what support looks like and should look like. I told him, if it were me, and anybody, whether an openly gay guy, or not, had approached me and congratulated me for 'being trans', I would have been mortified at having been clocked, and upset to have been approached with this information, and I probably would never, ever shop there again. He didn't understand this. He couldn't conceive of why I would just want to be seen as a normal girl out doing my shopping, and nothing more. For some, gender-variance is not a condition to be highlighted or celebrated, it something to be rectified, and put away, and the sooner, the better..

Yes, sometimes even the most well-intended 'support' can be hurtful, that's why more education and deeper awareness are so important to any marginalized community. Discrimination isn't just about being told you are less, but also about being told that you should also feel yourself to be more. Gender-variance is not the same as having same-sex attractions, though the two concepts often intersect within us in some ways. I have drifted away from my gay friend, whom I had known since high school. He was unable to meet me halfway on the road to mutual understanding, and could not learn to frame the trans experience anywhere beyond his preconceptions from within the gay community. His gender was an absolute, and his hatred for straights was palpable, especially straight women, though he was also ungenerous to lesbian women.

Missy

Quote from: MissGendered on February 02, 2017, 02:14:01 PM
In the early days of my de-transition, after coming out to a gay male friend, he told me had been noticing a person at his local grocery store, and he was convinced she was a trans girl. He was pretty excited to have 'spotted' her, and he asked me if he should approach her and let her know she was looking good. I blurted out "Gawd nooo, just leave her be". He was like, "Why? She should know that people are supportive, right?". Again, I was like "Gawd, nooo!!". He didn't understand that for many a trans person, NOT being noticed, especially early in transition, can be the absolute best outcome of any trip to the grocery store. I don't know if this girl was out and proud, or non-binary, or looking to live fully stealth, but I do know, that within our LGBT community, there exists side by side, very different ideas about what support looks like and should look like. I told him, if it were me, and anybody, whether an openly gay guy, or not, had approached me and congratulated me for 'being trans', I would have been mortified at having been clocked, and upset to have been approached with this information, and I probably would never, ever shop there again. He didn't understand this. He couldn't conceive of why I would just want to be seen as a normal girl out doing my shopping, and nothing more. For some, gender-variance is not a condition to be highlighted or celebrated, it something to be rectified, and put away, and the sooner, the better..

Yes, sometimes even the most well-intended 'support' can be hurtful, that's why more education and deeper awareness are so important to any marginalized community. Discrimination isn't just about being told you are less, but also about being told that you should also feel yourself to be more. Gender-variance is not the same as having same-sex attractions, though the two concepts often intersect within us in some ways. I have drifted away from my gay friend, whom I had known since high school. He was unable to meet me halfway on the road to mutual understanding, and could not learn to frame the trans experience anywhere beyond his preconceptions from within the gay community. His gender was an absolute, and his hatred for straights was palpable, especially straight women, though he was also ungenerous to lesbian women.

Missy

Wow, I mean just wow. "...good safety tip, thanks Egon"(Ghost Busters). I had not even thought of that happening as a compliment. Good to file away so if/when it happens I don't go ballistic at myself.

Really though, thanks for sharing.

Warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: Mia on February 01, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
I've been ripped by gender-fluid trans people because I am binary. Since I aim to "go all the way," I am somehow abandoning trans people and I am an elitist. Quite frankly that line of thinking sickens me, I felt like a mob of people who are "proud to identify as trans," as they put it, set upon me to prove that I'm a terrible traitor for wanting to pass and disappear as a woman. They want to steal the community from me.

They also attacked my ability to obtain hormones and surgeries, without a shred of evidence as to how exactly I obtained my surgeries or my hormones. I will work and pay for whatever it takes for me to find my peace and happiness, for all I know these people are working part time jobs and driving cars they can't afford while they whine about what they can't have. That's not my style, it has never been.

Yeah... I haven't the stomach or mental capacity to deal with that amount of toxicity. I spent most of my youth 'gender neutral' and the only reason for that was I refused to fully commit to the male standing in front of me in the mirror since it wasn't right for me. I grew out of it, realizing, I wanted to be one and not the other and it was only ever the male that caused me discomfort. Maybe these children will outgrow their silliness too? Maybe they wont and they're just terrible human beings, yelling and screaming at whoever will hear them waving sticks around at the sky..

Quote from: Mia on February 01, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
On the one hand, I stand united with all trans people, and I always will because all of our experiences are similar. But to counter these people's bias, I wonder aloud who really travels the easier path - someone who doesn't worry about passing but endures endless discrimination, or someone who lives in fear and suffers through financial and physical agony along a very uncertain road to completion?

I think, if given the option, we'd all want to pass. Though, I'm sure some people love to play the martyr also..

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 02, 2017, 01:01:22 PM
Oh, I certainly hope the support group doesn't do that!

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that they do, only that I am afraid that they will.  I am quite sure it is my insecurities not their actions preventing me from going.  Heck, my wife has not seen Paula yet and perhaps after that happens, who knows.

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 02, 2017, 09:45:47 AMLive your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

Sorry. My sermon is done.  I kinda feel strongly about that.

I would hesitate, though, to make this a matter of being moral. 

Because it really depends on where you're at when it comes to your healing process.  If you have to withdraw for your own health, then withdraw.  There's no time limit -- it might be a lifetime, for all any of us know.  You just don't know.  For all I knew, I wasn't ever coming back to the community.  I just couldn't risk possibly stirring up my dysphoria. 

Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless. 

Quote from: RobynD on February 02, 2017, 12:26:35 PMI think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

In my experience, the desire to judge -- and yes, I agree that it's really about pronouncing what's "right," primarily for hierarchical reasons -- comes from lacking a sense of inherent value.  Without a sense of inherent value, value can only be assigned through comparison, through establishing a pecking order. 

A nice meditation, I think, which I got from my book club actually, is to actively seek out what we like, so as to establish empathy.  And then, advanced course here, is to simply appreciate others for exactly what they bring to the table, whether we like it or not.  Because inherent value isn't rooted in likeability.  Inherent value is inherent, it inheres, and it's simply a matter of choice to actively recognize it or not. 

Sadly, we live in a culture that is generally antithetical to the notion of inherent value.

QuoteSo, my point is that we may experience Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community, but it may not be ill intended, but, rather, ill controlled instinctive behavior.  I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it.

A tall glass of apathy would be nice, but unfortunately our emotions precede conscious thought.  It takes work in advance (again, recognizing one's own inherent value) to nip those negative emotions before they're generated in the first place, and that work isn't exactly easy -- after all, we're now dealing with the subconscious, which generally means it doesn't respond to conscious probing or what we might call "the will," but rather to material demonstration and lived experience.  Which usually takes time to sink in. 

Quote from: PaulaLee on February 02, 2017, 05:32:06 PMI am sorry, I did not mean to imply that they do, only that I am afraid that they will.  I am quite sure it is my insecurities not their actions preventing me from going.

The vast majority of people at support groups are there get their own support, not to pass judgment on others.  Generally speaking, once people start passing regularly, they tend to stop going to support groups, because passing generally does a great deal to ameliorate dysphoria, and so support groups become largely unnecessary.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 02, 2017, 05:57:36 PM

Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless.

Yes.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 02, 2017, 05:57:36 PM
Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless.

Thank you, Sophia!

This is one of those moments when a truth inadvertently shines a light into an unintended corner.

I have this running issue with straight, very masculine men. I attract them easily enough, and can bed them without hesitation, but ultimately, they won't bond with me, no matter how well we get along..

I thought it was my height, or my past, or my same-sex attractions, as each have been cited, but more often, there is no reasonable explanation given, except an allusion to me being 'masculine' in some unnameable way...

And this it, this is the missing piece. Yes, they can almost accept me as being smarter, or more world wise, or more talented, or having bedded far more women than they have, but ultimately, what is undermining these relationships, I am now convinced, is my easy demonstration of personal power. What straight man, what very masculine, manly man, wants to be with a woman, even an especially feminine one, that is more powerful than he is, and in tangible ways? Duh..

Now I see the pattern, the light has come on in the refrigerator.

Thank you, so very much.

I thought it was me. It is not. It is them.

I need a very secure man, a very secure, manly man, one that welcomes a woman with her own power gladly, and is not threatened by it.

Sorry to derail the thread, but when epiphanies strike, it pays to stand up and listen. And I want you to know that you helped me, even without intending to do so.

I am so very glad I also returned to the community.

It has been a very productive visit!

Missy

Quote from: Cannabliss on January 31, 2017, 08:00:06 PM
Has anyone ever experienced that?

I'm the only transgender person I know. 

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'


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I think I agree with you,I'm a 24 year old MTF and I agree totally with what you said,personally I feel it too myself,because I could not pass.

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:41:31 AM
In thinking about it, folks who have truly completed their transition probably should leave the trans community and just live their lives.  Wasn't that the original goal of transition, to just be a woman?

My goal wasn't to be a woman.  It was to be more myself.

And I've spent most of my life living as a man.  It's a huge part of my history and not one I'd be willing to walk away from, even if I could.

I'm transitioning because it makes me feel better.  I want to look in the mirror and not be grossed out or have to block the awareness that what I see is me.  I would like to relate to people, especially women, the way I see other women relate to one another.  I'd like to look "cute"; well, at least as "cute" as I can be with all that visible testosterone damage.

As long as I can have that (or some amount of it), I don't mind people knowing I'm trans.  Anybody who knows me as more than a random face is going to know it, anyway.  As long as they relate to me as me, and don't use my history as an excuse to invalidate the most precious parts of me, I'm okay with it.

I'll probably keep up with the people I've met in support groups, because they're people who share experiences I've had that cis people have not.  Just as war veterans like to meet with other war veterans because other veterans understand, so I like to spend time with other trans people (incl. NB and FTMs), because they understand.


As for the "more trans than thou" folks, life's too short.  I can't be bothered.  I'd rather spend my few remaining years (and my "remaining limbs" ) with people who do accept me.  Besides, I've been erased by far bigger bullies than they'll ever be, and I'm still here.

Quote from: Asche on February 04, 2017, 10:16:47 AMMy goal wasn't to be a woman.  It was to be more myself.

And I've spent most of my life living as a man.  It's a huge part of my history and not one I'd be willing to walk away from, even if I could.

I'm transitioning because it makes me feel better.  I want to look in the mirror and not be grossed out or have to block the awareness that what I see is me.  I would like to relate to people, especially women, the way I see other women relate to one another.  I'd like to look "cute"; well, at least as "cute" as I can be with all that visible testosterone damage.

As long as I can have that (or some amount of it), I don't mind people knowing I'm trans.

Well, yes, we transition to be ourselves and have that sense of self recognized socially, but that begs the question of who you are in the first place.  For me, being a woman is who I am.

If you're non-binary, on the other hand, then you practically must have an open narrative in the first place, because without it you'll just get gendered on the binary by default.  In that respect, being non-binary is kind of like being gay, people don't know unless you say, and even more so with being non-binary because it's so much more rare and there's practically no representation of it in popular media; at least the gay and lesbian population has had a lot of media exposure over the last two to three decades. 

But if you want to be able to relate to other women the way other women relate to each other, it'll be much more difficult with an open narrative.  Not impossible, because a few women can be very open-minded; they can see the invisible self.  Although if you're defining yourself as non-binary, that's an experience far outside the realm of what most people can grasp.  Instead, to have that kind of connection, you'll need...

QuoteI'll probably keep up with the people I've met in support groups, because they're people who share experiences I've had that cis people have not.  Just as war veterans like to meet with other war veterans because other veterans understand, so I like to spend time with other trans people (incl. NB and FTMs), because they understand.

...this. 

I kind of feel the same way, actually -- sometimes I needed to talk about this experience, and the only people I could really talk to about it were a few women who'd basically followed the same path.  They weren't from support group, though, as none of the people I knew from RL support groups went the way of a closed narrative. Instead, I found these friends online, in the midst of my transition, women who shared a similar philosophy and had the same goals... and eventually, the same sorts of experiences.  It's very different, I think, to live and love with a closed narrative versus an open one. 

Not to say that one way is inherently better than the other, just that the experiences themselves are very different... and as such, will be more or less suited to serving particular purposes and intentions. 

People are still people and are envious creatures. I'm jealous of how wonderful you look but what I would hope from our community is that we know better so we do better, as having felt 'less than' and bullied much of our lives that we rise above the superficiality and cruelty  that afflicts man and woman kind. Too much to ask??!!