This sounds like an incredibly hard situation for you.  It seems very likely that he is dealing with incredible amounts of fear.  This includes fear of change, fear of society's reaction, fear of your reaction coupled with insecurity of self, fear of his own desires, and internalized transphobia. 

The fact that he doesn't seem to posses an emotional bone in his body is likely a coping mechanism developed to protect the self from harm.  I am a rational sort of person by nature and rarely showed any emotions beyond anger and depression.  It was terrible, but I knew what to expect from myself and how to cope with these states (though the mechanisms of coping are quite maladaptive).  At the very beginning of my journey I realized that long ago I had locked away and repressed almost all feelings of happiness, joy, and love (possibly anything positive in general) away with anything remotely feminine.  It wasn't an active process that did this, but a constant retreat into rationality as a way to avoid dealing with complex issues.  Emotions are not necessarily rational and it takes a while to accept them rather than go on a cycle of self invalidation.

I discussed HRT with my wife very early on as something I wanted to do.  I was very hopeful that it would allow me to experience all the vibrant emotions I read others experiencing.  I was also incredibly attracted to the idea of feminization.  I was scared to admit that to myself for a while.  I was also scared to be forced to deal with the societal repercussions of said feminization.

The truth of things is that I changed a lot yet I changed less than I imagined.  After 8 months on HRT I do experience a wider range of emotions.  They are not entirely new, but I am not repressing everything so strongly.  I was amazed to realize that most times I feel happy rather than neutral.  I allow myself to feel giddy and playful and all the positive things I had shut off.  I still get angry and I still get depressed, but I bounce back far quicker.  The anger doesn't seem to initiate the cycle of self loathing as much or as intensely.  I am not an emotion trainwreck.  I was a moody SOB at the start, but now not as much.  I have only cried twice (both within the last month). It's kind of nice to be able to actually do it.  I still have plenty of emotional blocks against it and it's not something that happens willy nilly.  I am becoming a better person overall.  Though it is a challenge some days and I do revert to my old behaviors sometimes.

As to the feminization aspect that has been interesting.  I did not have strong male features to begin with.  I was definitively male looking, though.  The changes were subtle.  More rapid than my rational brain wanted.  Deep down they couldn't be rapid enough.  There was a conflict between my rational brain and my hidden desires.  Over the last month I get gendered female by most strangers.  My biggest tell is my voice, which I have not worked on at all.  Even then it only occasionally leads to confused looks.  I am starting to get hips.  My body hair is finally slowing down and getting thinner.  I have developed to a B cup.  They are still growing and it is unclear where they will stop at.  I have good genetics for breast growth apparently.

Before starting all of this there was a strong sexual component to feminization.  That faded a lot.  There are still remnants of it, but for the most part I am just pleased with how my body is developing generally.  I am attracted to women still and it is odd to realize that I look at attractive women with both envy and desire.  I cannot speak for your husband but there may be a bit of that going on.

Socially almost no one has cared about my transition.  This is in central pennsyltucky.  A very red and conservative area.  The only one who seems to have issues with it is one friend.  We have been friends for 20 years.  I do not know why it bothers him so much and he vehemently denies that it does, but he can barely even look at me.  He avoids me a lot and mostly talks to me via phone or text these days.  I realize that he must have some issues he is dealing with, or rather not dealing with.  It is a shame, but nothing can be done since he won't talk to me about it.  Otherwise, everyone is too busy living life to care much about whatever​ I do, even if it is against their beliefs, etc.  That being said I don't force my being trans on anyone.  I care less about pronouns than most and have the blessing to pass.

Another thing to mention so that when thinking of/about myself I do not think of gender at all.  I don't inherently think of myself as man or woman.  I am just me.  Occasionally, societally patterned thoughts about gender pop in there but mostly it's just me.  I do think about some of my actions or mannerisms as being girly or manly sometimes.  It's mostly a thing because then I usually follow it up with, "oh yeah, I am allowed to act "girly" now".

I don't know how much of this spiel will be relevant or useful to you.  I hope some of it will be.  I hope your spouse can find their way to happiness without taking it out on you.  Without knowing him I am at a disadvantage in providing advice.   Mostly, this was just to illustrate one way he might be and to show that things aren't all bad.  He needs to address his issues and having someone to talk through them with can be incredibly helpful.  Stay strong.

Hugs,
Amber

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 17, 2017, 09:49:23 AM
Well everyone... I need your support... again... why does my husband (no transitioning yet) constantly pick fights with me???

Before I dealt with this I was doing the same thing every day.  I had incredible anger and self loathing built up and simply took it out on her at every opportunity.  My anger all revolved around knowing exactly what I was, knowing for years exactly what I wanted, and being too afraid to do anything about it.  So I was constantly in some form of inner turmoil and varying degrees of depression for many years.  Finally, the self generated despair overcame the fear and I began treatment.  Since then, a little over two years ago, the fights between me and my wife have disappeared.  From a daily occurrence to never.

For many years I thought it was her because of this or that reason.  Because the simple step of facing this directly and stopping all the coping and avoidance mechanisms also stopped all our conflicts it's pretty obvious in hindsight exactly what was going on.

Your husband also needs to face this head on and admit to himself what it is he needs to do, whatever that ends up being.  You cannot do that for him.  You have been incredibly supportive thus far and have gone above and beyond what many would have given already.  Your husband will have to resolve the next step.

Two things would be useful without committing him to any specific action.  The first would be some professional counseling.  The second would be coming here and talking to some of us.  There are people here that come from every possible circumstance imaginable.  He would soon find that there is absolutely nothing about his life experience in dealing with this that is in any way unique.  Someone, or more likely, many, have experienced the exact same emotions, have had very similar life experiences, and have been in the exact same place he is right now.  I think that would help.  It did help me anyway; a lot.

But you can only offer these to him as options.  He has to take the action himself.

In the meantime know that you are doing nothing wrong and by what you have written I think you are doing everything right.  The root of all this turmoil is his inner demons.  He can only exorcise them himself.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

QuoteOne quick question: could he expect (being 42) to have at least an A cup within 4-6 months on HRT? Could he still present as male and hide what's going on underneath?

FWIW, I nicely fill a 38A bra (no HRT) and it's really not that noticeable, compared to when I don't wear one.  I just wear shirts that don't make my bra obvious.  Incidentally, there are many men with large breasts.  Some have them naturally and some due to medication or other medical issue.  So, compared to many men out there, an "A" wouldn't be all that noticeable.

You have received a good deal of information in this thread but something hasn't been touched on so far. There will be a time not far in the future that both of you will have to face for your own well being. The decision will be a gender therapist, couples consoling or a divorce. Your husbands refusal to face the issues could be tolerated but taking the discomfort out on you is abuse and should not be tolerated. I understand wanting to preserve the marriage but don't wait to long before making the decision because this about both of you.

Quote from: Dena on March 18, 2017, 12:02:25 PM
You have received a good deal of information in this thread but something hasn't been touched on so far. There will be a time not far in the future that both of you will have to face for your own well being. The decision will be a gender therapist, couples consoling or a divorce. Your husbands refusal to face the issues could be tolerated but taking the discomfort out on you is abuse and should not be tolerated. I understand wanting to preserve the marriage but don't wait to long before making the decision because this about both of you.

Ditto

I'm glad you can see it as a form of emotional abuse. It's really hard to be supportive when his way of dealing with it is to constantly pick fights with me. I'm hoping that once we start counseling on the 28th that he will begin to settle down and learn to deal with things in a better way. But at the same time he keeps saying that he may go to one or two sessions because he doesn't like counseling. Which is funny because he's never done counseling before so how would he know? We have tried over the 17 years that we've been together to go to counseling and he makes it through one session. Of course the counseling sessions were just marriage counseling because there's always been something going on that I just couldn't put my finger on.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 17, 2017, 09:49:23 AM
Well everyone... I need your support... again... why does my husband (no transitioning yet) constantly pick fights with me??? I stopped asking questions about what he feels or how he sees me at his request to allow fir his mind to settle down. Then he will start to talk about some things but then when I respond with questions or concerns I have... he shuts down and begins to pick a fight with me. To turn the subject off of the subject of his not fully accepting that he is Transgender. He tells me that he wants HRT but that he won't go on them... but he will make comments about wishing he could... The thought is always there (I told him I support him going on them) so why won't he take that step?? It's driving me crazy with all the back and forth...

Hi Twoman44,
There probably isn't slot I can say here that hasn't already been said so I will give you my experience incase that is helpful.

I am 44 mtf. I say mtf but I still consider myself a guy. I have been in therapy for around 18 months and have experienced pretty much everything others have described here, the denial, self loathing, unimaginable confusion, and the list goes on.

I haven't been picking fights with my wife, but I have been causing her much pain in other ways. I would have frequent meltdowns where I would get angry at myself for not being able to contain these feelings, this anger and frustration ends up in emails I send to my therapist where I accuse her of not doing her job properly and insisting that she diagnose me with something, any diagnosis would do as long as it's not transgender. I know my wife reads these emails and it hurts her deeply to know I am in such torment. I get stuck in this vicious cycle of accepting myself one minute to hating myself the next. During these cycles I would try and purge all things trans from my life. I have deleted my account here at Susan's 3 times so far. My therapist told me I am in the middle of an emotional breakdown. For me, these trans feelings hit me as a bit of a surprise a couple of years ago. After all the therapy I have had, I now know that there were clues as to my being trans right back to my childhood, but these memories were locked and buried away in the deepest, darkest corners of my mind. Even until very recently, I still had trouble acknowledging that these memories ever existed and I would try and convince myself that I am not trans.

Many people on this forum have suggested to me to just try HRT to see how it goes. I was told that the psychological effects come long before any physical changes, so it is a good way to answer many questions and know if it is the right path for me. Well being as stubborn as I am, I have resisted taking that advice, I have not yet started HRT and still find myself in this terrible cycle. My wife cannot stand seeing me hurt this way, and I have been to blinded by my own stubbornness to see that my actions are hurting her.

It got to the point where my therapist suggested (very strongly!) that I should consider trying HRT. My wife and I had a joint couples session and both my wife and therapist think I should be trying HRT. I have an appointment in May with an endocrinologist. I can certainly understand your husband saying he wants HRT but us hesitant to start. I am terrified about going on hormones. Part of me hopes they won't work on me to prove I was right all along that I am not trans. Nobody wants to be trans, especially when it is discovered later in life. I am also looking forward to finding an answer one way or another. Living the way I have is pure hell.

I can understand his anger and frustration but taking it out on you is never a good idea, especially after all the support you are providing.

I don't know what advice I can offer other than sharing part of my story. The people on this forum are amazing. Everybody wants to help because we all, in our own individual ways, have experienced/are experiencing similar hurdles. If he hasn't already, coming onto this forum could be very helpful for him. Also, a good therapist can be a lifesaver.

I hope you can both find some peace without damaging your marriage.

Feel free to message me if you like, or your husband can message me too.

Jessie

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 18, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
We have tried over the 17 years that we've been together to go to counseling and he makes it through one session.

Counseling is inherently uncomfortable for most males. My wife "dragged" me to couples counseling a couple times over the years, once with a female, and once with a male. It was always good, and we got some useful changes in direction out of both. No major issues, more of a fine tuning thing.

But I almost always wound up crying, which may not happen with everyone, but it takes some getting used to as a man. I suppose I've always been more prone to crying than most men (I cry in movies) but always tried to deny/hide it. Just so you know, that will be uncomfortable for him. I wouldn't comment. Merely hand over the tissue box, or preposition it near him.

When we saw the male therapist, my wife felt like he took "my" side and she didn't feel very supported. Maybe I felt the same way with the female, but being new to it, it didn't really occur to me.

Quote from: Dena on March 18, 2017, 12:02:25 PM
You have received a good deal of information in this thread but something hasn't been touched on so far. There will be a time not far in the future that both of you will have to face for your own well being. The decision will be a gender therapist, couples consoling or a divorce. Your husbands refusal to face the issues could be tolerated but taking the discomfort out on you is abuse and should not be tolerated. I understand wanting to preserve the marriage but don't wait to long before making the decision because this about both of you.

It's agree here and IF he is not willing to go, you should at least. I would encourage you to find one anyway as it could help you help your husband.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 18, 2017, 01:49:06 AM
Thank you everyone. I cried all the way home from work today (I'm hardly ever alone to full out cry). What if he never comes to terms with this? Will our life be like this forever? For someone who feels female inside, he sure doesn't have any female feelings... so it's really hard to wrap my mind around seeing him as female....he's kind of a hard ass... not an emotional bone in him (except maybe anger). Are there any of you that want HRT but say you won't go on it or transition? That's what my husband says. Is it possible that he is bi gender? Or just denying he is a woman? I'm hoping that he will want to stick with the therapist but he really doesn't want to go... I'm pretty sure going to one, to him, is the first step to transitioning. He's afraid (IMO) that if he goes to therapy he will be offered HRT and how it could lead help his thoughts (he won't let me call it dysphoria). And then I he hormones will feel good and want more (this is where my biggest fear comes into play..). I'm afraid he will change his sexual orientation and not desire me anymore). I love the support and that you are all willing to hear me out and h LL answer my questions!

One quick question: could he expect (being 42) to have at least an A cup within 4-6 months on HRT? Could he still present as male and hide what's going on underneath?

I myself haven't cried in 17 years. The hardass demeanour is to hide the underlying desires and self. I'd just let him do his thing to be honest. If he doesn't want to go to therapy, so be it, same if he does. I'd say support him either way while making clear that starting fights to take it out on the family, isn't gonna work. That ain't how we do it. 

Gains made on the body from MTF HRT from what I've seen online, doesn't look like much in all honesty.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 18, 2017, 01:49:06 AM
One quick question: could he expect (being 42) to have at least an A cup within 4-6 months on HRT? Could he still present as male and hide what's going on underneath?

I went from zero to full B cups in 6 months.  Hiding them would not really be an option for me.  Not that I would ever want to. Quite the opposite in fact.

TwoWoman; I am a bit late coming in to this thread. A lot has been said here to smoke your head even more then your husband's dropping of the T-Bomb.

The apparent reality on the ground, from my wife's perspective, is that I became an "Angry" person in the years prior to me finally doing something about being trans. She knew of my gender issues from about day 1, even began staying around the house during my monthly or so escapes from maleness spending the day cross-dressed. But as life marched on and the guilt of me stealing what little time she had with John, and especially me relying on distractions and diversions to "Quiet the noise", like burying myself more and more into work and finding a thousand things around the house that needed doing. I see now how during all that time I slowly changed into some lifeless, soulless Thing that only existed to do what was expected. No hopes, no wishes, no dreams, bar one given up on long long ago.

Eight years ago my world crashed around me. After much reflection I reasoned that the root cause was how I was NOT handling being TG.  By the time I was returning home from my third ever TG Support group meeting I knew I needed to be there, and that it was almost too late to tell my wife what was up. The big problem is "talking", especially about such deep emotional things like this, was not something I could do. But I knew I needed to come up to speed fast if I wanted to do all I can to keep us together in spite of the total betrayal of some 30 plus years I was going to drop on her. BTW-Betrayal is a BIG hot button issue for her and for all these years we both had believed I was "Just a CD".

During our many difficult, deeply emotional talks in the ensuing months to years there might be "some" anger. During such times one has to expect that the reptilian brain will let loose, bypassing the normal filters. But we both also knew to listen to the message, not the words. I don't get this sort of vibe from your postings. It seems more of a "I don't to talk about it", shutting you down response. Even when you try the playing 20 questions route to find out what is going on inside his head.

If anything like most of us, a lot of what is going on is Shame & Guilt. We spent a lifetime living up to an image, perhaps even a Hollywood big screen version of that image. And now, you failed yourself big time by just giving in to entertaining the thought you might be trans. You feel even worse admitting to a loved one. So fight back even harder. I suppressed these emotions before, I can do it again. Or, the opposite response, full speed ahead, but.... don't admit it to anyone, even yourself. Or any number of other responses. All fueled by my two oldest friends, Shame & Guilt.

Will HRT change him? It depends. May not do a damn thing, totally depress him, or..... I relied on my on/off low dose HRT several times throughout the decades for the very badly needed brain-reset. Always stopping when the hormones eventually came into conflict with "The Prime Directive" of being a normal guy. Nothing says abnormal guy better then knowing things are starting to take a hit below the belt.

What physical affects HRT will have varies greatly and age is also a major factor. After about 3-4 years this old dinosaur has an almost for real B cup. Between my age, emotional state, and HRT, I suspect typical male penetrative sex is impossible. But the chances of that happening with my somewhat supportive wife is slim to none between "I cannot think of you as a husband with breasts nicer then mine" as well as her physical limitations.

While the physical aspects of HRT does freak out my wife, the amount of personal growth I have been able to achieve, how much of a.... not really different, a grown up younger version of me of some 40 years ago, the sort of person she can love even more then back when both of our hormones were in sync and raging.

All of the above only happens when BOTH parties to this partnership called marriage cooperate and compromise for your shared future dreams as well as what is needed today. Even then, how the other feels or does we have no control over. My wife and I have idea what the real future for us will look like. Her greatest fear is as learn more and more who I am, a male love interest may arise. I sort of fear it too as it is all too real of a possibility. A highly unlikely one today since I need to live and present primarily as male. (see compromises above). I may want to live full or part time as female, luckily I mostly do not need to. It's one day at a time for us both

Quote from: JoanneB on March 19, 2017, 07:40:18 AM
TwoWoman; I am a bit late coming in to this thread. A lot has been said here to smoke your head even more then your husband's dropping of the T-Bomb.

The apparent reality on the ground, from my wife's perspective, is that I became an "Angry" person in the years prior to me finally doing something about being trans. She knew of my gender issues from about day 1, even began staying around the house during my monthly or so escapes from maleness spending the day cross-dressed. But as life marched on and the guilt of me stealing what little time she had with John, and especially me relying on distractions and diversions to "Quiet the noise", like burying myself more and more into work and finding a thousand things around the house that needed doing. I see now how during all that time I slowly changed into some lifeless, soulless Thing that only existed to do what was expected. No hopes, no wishes, no dreams, bar one given up on long long ago.

Eight years ago my world crashed around me. After much reflection I reasoned that the root cause was how I was NOT handling being TG.  By the time I was returning home from my third ever TG Support group meeting I knew I needed to be there, and that it was almost too late to tell my wife what was up. The big problem is "talking", especially about such deep emotional things like this, was not something I could do. But I knew I needed to come up to speed fast if I wanted to do all I can to keep us together in spite of the total betrayal of some 30 plus years I was going to drop on her. BTW-Betrayal is a BIG hot button issue for her and for all these years we both had believed I was "Just a CD".

During our many difficult, deeply emotional talks in the ensuing months to years there might be "some" anger. During such times one has to expect that the reptilian brain will let loose, bypassing the normal filters. But we both also knew to listen to the message, not the words. I don't get this sort of vibe from your postings. It seems more of a "I don't to talk about it", shutting you down response. Even when you try the playing 20 questions route to find out what is going on inside his head.

If anything like most of us, a lot of what is going on is Shame & Guilt. We spent a lifetime living up to an image, perhaps even a Hollywood big screen version of that image. And now, you failed yourself big time by just giving in to entertaining the thought you might be trans. You feel even worse admitting to a loved one. So fight back even harder. I suppressed these emotions before, I can do it again. Or, the opposite response, full speed ahead, but.... don't admit it to anyone, even yourself. Or any number of other responses. All fueled by my two oldest friends, Shame & Guilt.

Will HRT change him? It depends. May not do a damn thing, totally depress him, or..... I relied on my on/off low dose HRT several times throughout the decades for the very badly needed brain-reset. Always stopping when the hormones eventually came into conflict with "The Prime Directive" of being a normal guy. Nothing says abnormal guy better then knowing things are starting to take a hit below the belt.

What physical affects HRT will have varies greatly and age is also a major factor. After about 3-4 years this old dinosaur has an almost for real B cup. Between my age, emotional state, and HRT, I suspect typical male penetrative sex is impossible. But the chances of that happening with my somewhat supportive wife is slim to none between "I cannot think of you as a husband with breasts nicer then mine" as well as her physical limitations.

While the physical aspects of HRT does freak out my wife, the amount of personal growth I have been able to achieve, how much of a.... not really different, a grown up younger version of me of some 40 years ago, the sort of person she can love even more then back when both of our hormones were in sync and raging.

All of the above only happens when BOTH parties to this partnership called marriage cooperate and compromise for your shared future dreams as well as what is needed today. Even then, how the other feels or does we have no control over. My wife and I have idea what the real future for us will look like. Her greatest fear is as learn more and more who I am, a male love interest may arise. I sort of fear it too as it is all too real of a possibility. A highly unlikely one today since I need to live and present primarily as male. (see compromises above). I may want to live full or part time as female, luckily I mostly do not need to. It's one day at a time for us both

I have similar experience without the hrt. The thing is, we think we can beat this when young, so back then, we even think we're just crossdressers or hoping that. Jennifer Finney Boylan says she thought love would cure her and I thought so too. Telling my wife to be now wife of 23 years from nearly the beginning was part of that and a big step in that I never admitted that to anyone. To me that's a high level of trust and love. Sometimes it's not enough. I'm still working through it, have a new gender therapist and we'll see. What I call say is that I can't do the lie anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 17, 2017, 11:03:58 AM
Sofhie89, can I ask why you say you love your wife but don't desire her? That confuses me.

Well, the hrt reduces the desire of having sex with my wife to almost zero.
But i stil want the best, for her, i still want to care for her, i still want to be the father of our kids, i still want to attend her needs, this why i say i love her.
Furthermore i daresay that not desiring her enables me to see her with untroubled eyes how precious she is to me! isn't that tragic, as the path i am folowing will almost certainly end with a separation.
Never think that he tries transitioning because of problems he has with you, the only problem he has is with himself. Unfortunately nothing you did or didn't cause that problem, eventhough it is somtimes tempting to reject the fault on your partner, as i stupidly did more than once.

Twoman it took some time for my sex drive to come back and it's not the same as before but we both like it better. Most of my rl trans friends are sexually interested and active