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The Androgynee Enlightenment Process

Started by Nero, January 24, 2008, 05:18:05 PM

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Shana A

Quote from: Rebis on February 04, 2008, 07:17:14 PM
    I'm such a dope that I continued to struggle with it even though I could see it right in front of me.  I had to read some of Leslie Feinberg's books that say it's not necessary to be either of the top two.

From reading Feinberg, Bornstein, etc., I understood from an intellectual level early on that it was possible to be something other than the binary choices, however it took a longer time to manifest that reality into my life.

y2g
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Pica Pica

Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2008, 05:08:45 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 05:01:50 AM
My light switch was a trio of songs on an MP3 player whilst walking my dog.
(The songs were...
                      I can't remember the first one...
                      Freak Show - Gothic Archies
                      Here Comes the Summer -Undertones
They make no sense as to why I clicked to them.)


Now the game is to see what that switch means to you, and that is actually quite an enjoyable experience, good luck with it.

What in the Sam Hill has that to do with my topic?



that's what happened to create the moment where I was enlightened to androgyny. That was the crucial moment of the enlightenment process, those songs, that dog, that moment.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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RebeccaFog

Too bad you forgot the first song.

What if we could play those same songs in the same order over the public airwaves and create Billions of androgynes (nearly enough to change a light bulb)?


What a wonderful world it would be!   :laugh:
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Calyx

Hello Nero,

This is a very interesting question.

Growing up I definitely identified more with the women around me.
My father was away much of the time, either on business trips or
pursuing "masculine" interests - fishing, hunting, card playing, etc.

I remember thinking at an early age that my mother was beautiful
and I very much wanted to be like her. My favorite aunt had no
children of her own and favored me with her attention.

The summer between fifth and sixth grades I decided that I really
was supposed to be a girl and began to seriously crossdress at
every opportunity.

My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.

There was no sexual component to my desire to be a girl until
much later (college). My father basically wrote me off and focused
his attention/affection upon my younger brother. My mother's
feelings were less clear.

I alternately went through periods of attempting to be "normal" and
desiring to be female. I had girlfriends and several close male friends,
but never had any homosexual inclinations.

I always felt more comfortable among women and eventually married
my best friend. Somewhere during the thirty-three years of our marriage
my sexual gratification became strongly associated with my being "dressed".

My wife and I are still best friends, but our sex life has faded to distant
memory and she wants nothing to do with what she terms my "sick fetish".

I still identify more with women most of the time. I've sought professional
help on several occasions, been treated for depression, and for the better
part of a year taken female hormones .

My profession keeps me away from home often. My women's clothing
and cosmetics stay in the trunk of my car and I usually "dress" when
away from home at night in the privacy of my hotel rooms or sometimes
if I am driving long distances. Sometimes I do go out while "dressed".

I would be perfectly happy if I could "dress" all the time in lingerie,
women's slacks and tops, and sandals or running shoes. I do really
wish my breasts were a little larger and that I had long hair, but
I have no desire to be totally female any longer. Quite honestly,
most of the time I wish I no longer had any male sexual organs.

Mostly, I just wish I could be ignored by society and accepted by
the few people I truly care about. I'm very introverted and have
never been overly ambitious regarding career. Most people see me
as a nice, helpful person who doesn't have much of a life.

I hope this helps. I enjoy reading your posts - they really make me
think about my own situation, and are probably a major reason I feel
most comfortable within the Androgyne category of the forum.

Calyx



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buttercup

Quote from: Calyx on February 05, 2008, 11:40:59 PM
Hello Nero,

This is a very interesting question.

Growing up I definitely identified more with the women around me.
My father was away much of the time, either on business trips or
pursuing "masculine" interests - fishing, hunting, card playing, etc.

I remember thinking at an early age that my mother was beautiful
and I very much wanted to be like her. My favorite aunt had no
children of her own and favored me with her attention.

The summer between fifth and sixth grades I decided that I really
was supposed to be a girl and began to seriously crossdress at
every opportunity.

My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.

There was no sexual component to my desire to be a girl until
much later (college). My father basically wrote me off and focused
his attention/affection upon my younger brother. My mother's
feelings were less clear.

I alternately went through periods of attempting to be "normal" and
desiring to be female. I had girlfriends and several close male friends,
but never had any homosexual inclinations.

I always felt more comfortable among women and eventually married
my best friend. Somewhere during the thirty-three years of our marriage
my sexual gratification became strongly associated with my being "dressed".

My wife and I are still best friends, but our sex life has faded to distant
memory and she wants nothing to do with what she terms my "sick fetish".

I still identify more with women most of the time. I've sought professional
help on several occasions, been treated for depression, and for the better
part of a year taken female hormones .

My profession keeps me away from home often. My women's clothing
and cosmetics stay in the trunk of my car and I usually "dress" when
away from home at night in the privacy of my hotel rooms or sometimes
if I am driving long distances. Sometimes I do go out while "dressed".

I would be perfectly happy if I could "dress" all the time in lingerie,
women's slacks and tops, and sandals or running shoes. I do really
wish my breasts were a little larger and that I had long hair, but
I have no desire to be totally female any longer. Quite honestly,
most of the time I wish I no longer had any male sexual organs.

Mostly, I just wish I could be ignored by society and accepted by
the few people I truly care about. I'm very introverted and have
never been overly ambitious regarding career. Most people see me
as a nice, helpful person who doesn't have much of a life.

I hope this helps. I enjoy reading your posts - they really make me
think about my own situation, and are probably a major reason I feel
most comfortable within the Androgyne category of the forum.

Calyx






Hi Calyx, My heart skipped a beat reading the description of your life and how you are getting along.  I felt abit sad at the end there, 'being seen as someone with not much of a life.'  :(


I have myself mixed feelings about being classified as an androgyne.  This at best describes the way I appear to the world.  I still have a masculine side to me, but would eventually prefer the world to see me as 100% female.  Hormones have had a marvellous affect on my mood, I am alot happier and calmer.  My blood tests revealed my liver and kidneys are in good order, that was relief, was abit worried about that for some reason, I had misused meds in the past but luckily no lasting ill-effects.

As you can imagine, in my part of the world, being out and about causes people to treat me decidedly differently to others.  Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much.  It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will.  I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore.  ;)
I have discovered by reading many of the posts written by androgynes on here, I can identify with many of them.  I am not overly female, not overly male in my thinking.

I  protect my friends and loved ones, and have been in afew fights because of this, and I stand by what I say and do, but at the same time will admit when I am wrong (sometimes reluctantly) and like to review the situation before I commit to anything.  I was told by a therapist that I am very 'self-aware'.  Which can be a gift and a curse.   My sense of humour can be quite childish and weird at times,  and I have been described as child-like, which seems to be a common theme with androgynes.

Anywho, most of the time I just like to identify with being human.  I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that.   :)
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that.   :)
well stop it.  You're making the rest of look bad.


>:D  >:D  >:D  >:D >:D
  •  

Jaimey

Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I  protect my friends and loved ones, and have been in afew fights because of this, and I stand by what I say and do, but at the same time will admit when I am wrong (sometimes reluctantly) and like to review the situation before I commit to anything.  I was told by a therapist that I am very 'self-aware'.  Which can be a gift and a curse.   My sense of humour can be quite childish and weird at times,  and I have been described as child-like, which seems to be a common theme with androgynes.

I'm starting to think that these traits have to be related to androgyne in some way.  Man...I should go back to school and take some more gender studies classes (too bad there's not much money in social sciences...).
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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sd

Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much.  It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will.  I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore.  ;)
I fully believe this as well and think a lot of people have been "ruined" this way.

My mother used to fret over the fact that she did not think I could say no to anyone about anything.
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 12:12:54 AM
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
Sometimes being 'nice' all the time doesn't get you anywhere, so I have to put on the 'bitch' persona, this way I'm not messed about with as much.  It's sad but true, if 'they' think they can walk all over you, they will.  I promised myself I wouldn't let that happen anymore.  ;)
I fully believe this as well and think a lot of people have been "ruined" this way.

My mother used to fret over the fact that she did not think I could say no to anyone about anything.
I have to "act" angry or depressed in order to get attention.  Even if I just say "that bothers me", it's taken like I said nothing.

It's too weird that we share these traits.

If we could get someone to put up the money, there's a company that maps your DNA for about $1000.00.  We could try to get as large a pool as possible and start doing studies on the psychology, nature, the DNA comparisons, and personality traits of us.

Maybe we could get a grant from somewhere.  May as well do it ourselves.  No one else takes us seriously.  Hee hee

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sd

Quote from: Rebis on February 07, 2008, 03:01:55 PM
If we could get someone to put up the money, there's a company that maps your DNA for about $1000.00.  We could try to get as large a pool as possible and start doing studies on the psychology, nature, the DNA comparisons, and personality traits of us.

Maybe we could get a grant from somewhere.  May as well do it ourselves.  No one else takes us seriously.  Hee hee

That would be interesting to do, too bad I do not have a grand sitting around handy.
Would they even be able to identify that though, it may not even be dna based.

We seem to be so largely ignored, it could be difficult to try and accomplish it. I have seen some pretty stupid studies though...

Anyone know anything about grants or maybe a university department head?

Posted on: February 07, 2008, 05:14:24 PM
Ok, forget the grant part...   :laugh:
That was quick and easy, now we just need someone to take it on. The money is there.

Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.

http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW

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Nero

Quote from: Calyx on February 05, 2008, 11:40:59 PM
My parents discovered me "dressing" in my mother's clothing and
I was repeatedly lectured, threatened, and physically punished.

Good evening and welcome Calyx.
<offers hand>

My heart goes out to you upon reading that. Having experienced the opposite (I'm ftm), I can't know the pain of the abuse you suffered for dressing in the clothes you felt comfortable in, but I can sympathize. I was forced into dresses and skirts for church and private religious schools. The shame was so great, I'd sit in church and hang my head, not daring to meet anyone's eyes.
I'm so sorry to hear of your abuse.

Nero
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
The money is there.

Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.

http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW


I think it's doable.  Just needs the right people.   
  •  

buttercup

Quote from: Rebis on February 06, 2008, 07:54:27 AM
Quote from: buttercup on February 06, 2008, 12:25:29 AM
I bleed, I cry, I laugh, I desire etc. just like everyone else, some people seem to forget that.   :)
well stop it.  You're making the rest of look bad.


>:D  >:D  >:D  >:D >:D



Yeah, that's another one of my many abilities. lol   :icon_biggrin:
  •  

Jaimey

Quote from: Rebis on February 08, 2008, 07:50:53 AM
Quote from: sd on February 07, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
The money is there.

Quote-Purpose. The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to invite grant applications for biological, behavioral, social, addictive, and mental health research related to the health of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other diverse populations.

http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=HrRRvq2P1vY5FNGkyqDkMKK6CRygMGzDHy1GGV5hDG3Nz066Dq9g!1669432672?oppId=14877&flag2006=true&mode=VIEW


I think it's doable.  Just needs the right people.   

Indeed.  Anyone here who is good at this sort of thing?
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
  •  

RebeccaFog


Okay.

We get the funding/grant/whatever
we develop tests to work out which traits are genetic and which are learned or whatever
we get DNA samples and send them out.
we analyze the data.

We use the grant money to pay for clusters of us to gather in our respective regions and to determine other traits.

We ask for more grant money.
  •  

Pica Pica

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
  •  

Seshatneferw

Much better than cutting up live androgynes.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
  •  

RebeccaFog

I don't see what difference it makes whether they are dead or alive when they are cut up.




>:D
  •  

NickSister

What if nothing was found?
It would be interesting to see if there was a genetic link though, but I rekon it would be more like us to be identifiable by an absence of certain genes rather than the genes we actually have...

My DNA won't say much, it is shot full of holes, I sit too close to the tv and like to stare into the microwave. :icon_dribble:..

Not sure what my enlightenment process was. Seems to have been a process of eliminiation for me. Growing up I assumed everyone was just like me but I was always confused about why people knew the rules and I didn't...I assumed I had my head in a cloud, which I did. In my late teens I tried various labels and researched, listened to people identifying as various things and tried them (the labels and the people) on for size. Over the course of about 10 years I went throught the following: Male? - no; Female? - not really; cross dresser? - nope; gay? - well that dude is nice but I did not really enjoy touching his tackle as much as my own so no; bisexual? - nice idea in theory but to be honest I like women more; ->-bleeped-<-? - They seem a bit like a fantasy to me, besides this was something men did....male? - we went through that already.... When I discovered non-binary genders I felt it was right, it was a Hazzah! moment provided by the internet (it might even have been androgyne online), but it took a long time for me to get my head around it, as in "I'm not male or female but how can I not be male or female"? kind of thing.
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sd

While it seems so odd to all be so similar.
Actually it should not feel odd, it should feel RIGHT!

This is what we were missing our whole lives from our peers. This is what everyone else experienced their whole lives (they just don't make a big deal about it). Men understanding men, women understanding women... We were always on the outside looking in, for the first time we are experiencing that camaraderie.

And it feels wonderful!




I am pretty sure I can safely say that there is something medically/genetically different about us from other people. I can trace my issues and feelings clear back to the day I first learned about boys and girls differences in clothes as well as the first time I learned the difference between genitalia. Both times I remember thinking what I was being told was wrong and unfair. I wasn't even 5 years old. I remember these events vividly, especially the second, not that I want to picture my cousin naked in the tub with me, but...
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