I'm just curious how many girls get FFS and feel like people aren't honest with their looks after.. like people are afraid to tell them things.  I know everyone wants ffs to be the end-all to gender questionability, but I still get this sense that people aren't always honest & forthright.. Then you have some that ask if you've started transition lmao.

Hey,

What do you mean ppl arent honest? Like if they aren't happy with their results and don't share that info? Not sure what you mean lol  or do you mean they got ffs and are still having their gender questioned and aren't willing to share that with us? I'd think it'd be quite shattering to have that happen. But im sure it happens a lot more than we think. Dunno how i would deal with that happening though.

regards,
B

There's lots of ->-bleeped-<- going on.  To me, many "after" pictures still look very male, but nobody dares say anything because it's akin to saying, "Wow, that was a waste of your money!"

This is why those awful local plastic surgeons still get away with offering FFS.  Nobody tells recent patients, "Honey, your FFS results look useless and your surgeon just ripped you off."  And people who are disappointed rarely say they're unhappy with their results.  But they feel it inside.

And then there's the people on sites like this one where surgical results - good and bad - are met with resounding praise regardless.  And where honest evaluations generally lead to the evaluator being hounded off the site.

So yeah, a bit of a mess really.

What would help?

- Less unqualified praise
- More freedom to critically evaluate results without fear of retribution

That way, we might stop some surgeons taking advantage of us.

A problem I see with the FFS opinions is that people judge by different standards. I will often see a face that may have flaws but no more than a CIS woman would have and I judge it passable. Another might determine that those normal flaws make the face un passable. In still other cases, I have seen faces that I could never read and yet the person is unwilling to accept that their face is fully feminine. To be honest in judging other, you need to remove the personal element and have standards that all can agree to. I suspect this would be difficult to do but without a standard it would be difficult to determine the quality of a doctors work.

I don't think there is much ->-bleeped-<- here.

Maybe a lot of comments are very focused  "on the bright side of things", people like to give support and encourage others. But I don't think they go as far as being dishonest.

For what is worth, I have no affiliation with any plastic surgeon, I consider myself a pretty honest gal, and I can say that virtually all results I had seen (with the exception of very very few malpractice disasters) were a massive improvement over the patients starting points.

Being that said, its worth noting (and it has been pointed on this forums many times) that nowadays plastic surgery may be not enough for some individuals to get what you might say "an unquestionably female appearance". Also it has to be noted that some girls just don't want to go for very aggressive procedures which in some cases may be needed to get an "optimal" result. In my experience, every single time I noticed a standing out masculine feature on a FFS result it was a feature that wasn't addressed by the surgery (for whatever reason) and not a "sub optimal" result.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Also for what is worth most (if not all) ffs and regular plastic surgeons tend to be pretty conservative with their quotes when it comes to advice which procedures they consider worth doing. And I say this both from my own experience with surgeons and from what I had seen until now.

I love this topic, although I would also like to know exactly what you mean, Doreen. I have been getting the feeling that people do tend to rationalize their not so great ffs results and then immortaize the surgeon. I went to one of those 'immortal'
Surgeons and the emperor doesn't always have clothes. And I'm not happy with my ffs which I went into incredible debt (50k +) to get. So I can see the tendency of the opposite of buyer's remorse. It's buyer's rationalization. You have to do that for self preservation .

But if people are doing that and still touting a surgeon it does others a disservice who go off of those evaluations. Not that we should rely on them 💯 but we do rely on them a good bit, since as a community we do get taken advantage of. And the ffs circuit is cut throat. Like  the famous law suit of two famous surgeons cat fighting with each other. It's gross.

I have the problem of real life ->-bleeped-<-ing in that no one is willing to tell me what about me elicits stares and snickers from strangers . So I go on being a hermit even after my ffs.

So yeah this topic hits home in so many ways for me! Thanks for starting it, Doreen!

JuJu

Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 07:41:41 AM
I love this topic, although I would also like to know exactly what you mean, Doreen. I have been getting the feeling that people do tend to rationalize their not so great ffs results and then immortaize the surgeon. I went to one of those 'immortal'
Surgeons and the emperor doesn't always have clothes. And I'm not happy with my ffs which I went into incredible debt (50k +) to get. So I can see the tendency of the opposite of buyer's remorse. It's buyer's rationalization. You have to do that for self preservation .

But if people are doing that and still touting a surgeon it does others a disservice who go off of those evaluations. Not that we should rely on them 💯 but we do rely on them a good bit, since as a community we do get taken advantage of. And the ffs circuit is cut throat. Like  the famous law suit of two famous surgeons cat fighting with each other. It's gross.

I have the problem of real life ->-bleeped-<-ing in that no one is willing to tell me what about me elicits stares and snickers from strangers . So I go on being a hermit even after my ffs.

So yeah this topic hits home in so many ways for me! Thanks for starting it, Doreen!

JuJu

Agree 100%. 50k!!!! Damn! I've seen some questionable photo's on the websites of some of the big name surgeons so i think this topic is completely relevant as well.

What you are naming "buyer rationalization" is actually a known phenomena, and may be true for some cases on this subject @JuJubee.

But I really think that different standards may explain quite well for so many many cases where evaluations on the same result vary greatly.

Even when it comes to self evaluation. Remember those girls who get over the moon, almost ecstatic about their changes after just a few months on HRT?

My gut tells me that different standards and own self perception may account for a whole bunch of cases that seem just plain and shameless->-bleeped-<- at a first glance. As I told many girls just don't want dramatic changes (even if they are required to get a "no doubt female" result), even if the procedures were completely free for them (no cost at all).

Same happens to girls that don't pay attention to some features that may be obvious for others.

Anyway Im really sorry you are disappointed with your FFS. May I ask you for more detailed input about it? Also I can get what you mean (and how annoying is) by being ->-bleeped-<-ed to the point no one is giving you useful input about what you may be missing and may be worth fixing.

Hi Wednesday, my ffs story is I had a nose job and type III forehead work done by a Dr who many regard as the best in the ffs biz. He's def the most expensive. I bought into that hype literally. And his bedside manner was harsh and his work is sub par at least his work on me was. My nose is pretty good but my forehead still has bossing. And I am really upset about it. It's better but not what I would expect from all the hype.

Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they did't need this or that procedure and said Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get their forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore their chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done, but they've decided they simply didn't need. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?"  Most of us don't want to be butt holes that are like, dashing peoples hopes. It makes us look like total jerks.  So we say something "constructive"  or post nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for absolutely nothing....or (gasp) worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better about what they need than the Dr. does, and then complain about or state they received "bad" results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
     If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are way too empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. Problems all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt.

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 11:12:14 AM
Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they don't need this or that procedure and the Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get the forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore the chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done but they decided they didn't need it. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?"  Most of us don't want to be jerks that are dashing peoples hope. It makes us look like jerks.  So we say something "costructive"  or nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for nothing....or worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better what they need than the Dr., and then complain about or just plain """ bad results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
     If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are to empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. It just all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt

I agree with you Jentay! It's not easy deprogramming humans to be brutally honest when it may help the person asking for opinions in the long run but the person dropping the honesty could get vilified for it. I know I want brutal honesty because my family dynamics were such that if you're not brutally honest with me then I can't trust you. It's tough finding people who are honest and come from a place where they want to help you rather than bash you. Cuz being honest is an investment. you have to deal with the fallout. And most people don't want to.

Another thing is on this site and any site, judging passability is not easy from a picture. I bet a ton of cis girls could post pics and we'd all think, um no you can't pass. Oh humans!!

They say 68% of statistics are made up on the spot...

I've noticed that 103% of all ->-bleeped-<- or brutal honesty threads are started by someone who doesn't show themselves. And that's fine, it just makes the rhetoric empty to me.

Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 11:28:00 AM
Another thing is on this site and any site, judging passability is not easy from a picture. I bet a ton of cis girls could post pics and we'd all think, um no you can't pass. Oh humans!!

Boy isn't that the truth. Two points here. Many of us are overly critical (enough with the type III forehead work everyone supposedly needs) and on the other end of the do I Pass?, spectrum. Pictures lie. They make us look worse, they make us look better....they make us look like someone else. Few are posting extemporaneous candid shots. They're generally one in a hundred and all in ideal lighting from perfect angles. The only thing any of us can actually comment on rgarding "passing", is does that picture pass. I can't possibly tell if YOU pass till I'm in a room with you talking to you. Which is the reason why I don't engage in  the Do I Pass threads, so I dont have to ->-bleeped-<- regarding something that is absolutely impossible to assess.

Ok so this is by far my most favorite topic . If anyone is in the NYC area and cares
To give an honest I will even take brutally honest opinion on how I present , let me know.  Do they have trans conventions or something where things like this take place??

Yes, I think there is a lot of this happening.

I saw a number of faces post FFS that I would still say should have done more or that look not "100% passable" or more often that look "jumbled" - like the forehead is feminine but the chin is masculine, almost like a mixed puzzle of two people. But people will tell them they look good because they want to hear it or say that they are so happy and no one wants to bust in with "well, if its good enough for you to be happy, fine, but I would not be happy with it, so maybe I should choose a different surgeon".

Sometimes I even see such pictures presented in galleries or on online posts or ads made by the surgeons or associates which puzzles me because I am not sure if the surgeons really like those outcomes or if they feel compelled to put them online if a patient gives an ok. I think often the patient or sometimes also the surgeons and probably other patients said that something is not needed and then its missing, but occasionally those parts have actually been worked on and still are not so good.

But its really hard to say so publicly because the general consent is to be uplifting, that trans people already suffer so much abuse that at least we should be saying always nice things. In addition to that, if surgeons or their associates read in a forum or group, it is a lot harder to comment negatively on them - I saw occasionally posts retracted because of this - former patients do not want to be publicly critical about the surgeons, patients who have a surgeon on their short list also do not want to ask too much ... its really complicated

I think how much surgeons recommend varies a lot. I have gotten quotes for only two minor procedures and I have gotten some for about 10 procedures to be done in 2 separate surgeries... This make sit increadibly hard to really choose what is needed. If a lot of people tell you that you do not need a procedure or that you do not need FFS at all but some will tell you to do everything possible - who do you believe?

Yup jentay, and to me it looks that many of those "results that leave much to be desired" are mostly due to what you addressed (people skipping really needed job) and to the fact that many people asks for very subtle/natural changes when it may take a much aggressive approach to obtain an optimal result.

I think people has to be way more aware about how things work and about what they can get.

For example, many people is scared about looking fake or too plastic, but for some, their only option may be to look a bit plastic if they want to look solidly feminine.

Also (and after many years seeing lots of results, plus having myself some jobs done) I really can't find anything (like average quality in their results) that justifies neither the great hype nor the high quotes from some one of them.

To me, when it comes to surgeons fees for example, they could be based in anything but in an outstanding, really well above average, quality of work.

Common sense tells to me that this being more of a science oriented to perform previously studied procedures than of a sort  of "freestyle" art where you can do whatever you want being the only limit your own cratives... It turns out pretty clear to me that almost no room is left for personal contribution (therefore not close enough to make differences).

In my opinion results are highly constrained (if not completely decided)

- Techniques used. They have limitations on what they are able to achieve, risks and drawbacks that are just the same for any surgeon no matter his skill or talent.

- The starting point you have. Since its not like painting on a blank canvas, this is pretty much the other thing that may constrain the outcomes.

Oh I'm pretty happy with my results overall, I think I look good...now if you look REAL close to my skin I see bad flaws & stuff.  BUT that being said, I still have that residual concern ... that folks aren't completely honest.  Plus this unrealistic expectation to look as cute as the models on tv lol.  Still, there is always that ... worry... that it wasn't enough.  Like sometimes you get this sense someone is questioning you, though its probably all psycho-somatic in the first place.  I probably just need to go out with a 'screw it' attitude and dress up to the 9 for myself, and not care what others may or may not be thinking.  I WANTED the surgeon to be as aggressive as needed... I actually asked him specifically to be so before I went under.  I'd rather be rehashed and cute than have to go multiple times and waste tons of money that I don't have.

Additionally:

You're right though in that we all tend to be overly observant of specific details, things that generally don't happen in the cis-populace. 

Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 12:16:42 PM
Ok so this is by far my most favorite topic . If anyone is in the NYC area and cares
To give an honest I will even take brutally honest opinion on how I present , let me know.  Do they have trans conventions or something where things like this take place??

Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.

Quote from: Doreen on May 22, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
Oh I'm pretty happy with my results overall, I think I look good...now if you look REAL close to my skin I see bad flaws & stuff.  BUT that being said, I still have that residual concern ... that folks aren't completely honest.  Plus this unrealistic expectation to look as cute as the models on tv lol.  Still, there is always that ... worry... that it wasn't enough.  Like sometimes you get this sense someone is questioning you, though its probably all psycho-somatic in the first place.  I probably just need to go out with a 'screw it' attitude and dress up to the 9 for myself, and not care what others may or may not be thinking.

You're right though in that we all tend to be overly observant of specific details, things that generally don't happen in the cis-populace.

Yes, and refering to skin or whatever particulae attribute, it begs the question, are we trying to look feminine, or look like Barbie. Cuz' they really are two different issues and are quite regularly conflated. I just want to pass and be accepted by the muggles. I have no delusion nor do I want to end up addicted to plastic surgery. I've enough issues to keep me occupied.

I don't get double takes... what I do get is unabashed staring.  Apparently noone informed folks its not nice to stare.  Its like a deer in the headlight GAZE until I wave or smile or something.  This is a new experience to me... I don't think its being 'read' that's causing it, but who knows maybe it is.  I didn't get this before ffs.  As far as interactions go, guys sometimes ACT like a deer caught in the headlight... even some girls or children.  Again, new experience.. odd to deal with.

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.