Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.

You nailed it. thanks for confirming this approach. The gut instinct is never wrong. Yep! I get the double takes and the micro expressions from random strangers I interact with or simply walk by that show disgust or dissapproval. Thing is I need someone to tell me what it is that is so jarring. Is it was he forehead which is much better, is it my lower face? Am I simply ugly? I don't see what could be so jarring. Yet no one will tell me.
I even pay a shrink to tell me the truth and he says maybe they're just looking at you cuz you're attractive. That's a cop out. If I were so attractive I would have men falling over me. I can assure you I do not!!

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.

Well depending on what you dress like, you may get stares either way

I sometimes thought it would be great to have someone do a "passing test". Like walk 10 meters behind you while you walk through a pedestrian zone or shopping mall, browsing and shopping maybe - and that other person just follows and observes the people, maybe even talks to them if they do stare massively. That other person should probably be cis to not risk changing the reactions. It would be interesting. Because if oneself is trying to look around, people will either change their behaviour and try to avoid staring - at least until you turn the back on them - or looking around all the time will draw more attention.

I have little clue if I always pass. I assume usually I do, some people look at me longer than I feel comfortable, but I have no idea why. No one bats an eye if I buy female hygiene products though and at least at work I was asked if I want to have kids or if I am having my period if I happen to be really in a bad mood on one day, so I assume its ok there.
When I was overweight, I got a lot of double takes and stares - so I wonder - do I "pass" better now with less weight or were those people only staring and double-taking me because they were staring at that very fat woman?

To be honest I've never gotten the 'disgust' look.. Oh I've seen it, but only when I was with another trans and it was directed AT the other trans. I do get men hitting on me, (as well as a few women), but its usually older men lol.  I'm talking creepy 60+ year olds!  I am *so* not into that.  I also partly think its how you dress that might get odd looks... Though I dress cute and conservative.  I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look.  And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.

Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 01:38:51 PM
You nailed it. thanks for confirming this approach. The gut instinct is never wrong. Yep! I get the double takes and the micro expressions from random strangers I interact with or simply walk by that show disgust or dissapproval. Thing is I need someone to tell me what it is that is so jarring. Is it was he forehead which is much better, is it my lower face? Am I simply ugly? I don't see what could be so jarring. Yet no one will tell me.
I even pay a shrink to tell me the truth and he says maybe they're just looking at you cuz you're attractive. That's a cop out. If I were so attractive I would have men falling over me. I can assure you I do not!!

You guys know.....beautiful and unusual looking women get stared at too. Staring is generally rude but it isn't always because you've been clocked. You really want to know? Get in a room of 5 year olds. Goodbye filters....hello truth.   

QuoteWell depending on what you dress like, you may get stares either way
   

Wait.....are you saying???  hose, 5 inch platforms, platinum blond hair, full make-up and a shiny mini dress will draw scrutinizing attention???....lol

Its funny you use that as a saying because I help out a bunch of 5 year old kids in an exercise class lol!  Other than the unabashed staring that comes even from them, most are perfectly appropriate with me.   And honestly if they saw me as as something 'else' they'd definitely be asking.  You are absolutely correct in the lack of filters in that age group.  I'm probably just overtly paranoid .

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:48:54 PM
You guys know.....beautiful and unusual looking women get stared at too. Staring is generally rude but it isn't always because you've been clocked. You really want to know? Get in a room of 5 year olds. Goodbye filters....hello truth.   

Quote from: Doreen on May 22, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
I don't get double takes... what I do get is unabashed staring.  Apparently noone informed folks its not nice to stare.  Its like a deer in the headlight GAZE until I wave or smile or something.  This is a new experience to me... I don't think its being 'read' that's causing it, but who knows maybe it is.  I didn't get this before ffs.  As far as interactions go, guys sometimes ACT like a deer caught in the headlight... even some girls or children.  Again, new experience.. odd to deal with.

Lol I know what you mean 100%. In my experience those "blank stares" (liked how you described them, deer caught in the headlight) which I also find somehow "dumb", are usually due to the boy just being kind of captivated by your appearance. Which is pretty usual for boys given how visual they are and to the fact they are most of the time "on the mood", always available to have sex, and blabla. Just boys being boys.

And many times they wouldn't be easy to figure out, since they usually may not be very expressive (even when it comes to facial expressions) and have most of the time this poker face.

Also it worth be noted that sometimes you can get exactly the same expression along its correspondent stare for completely different reasons. If you are really intrigued about why they are looking at you, a bit of casual interaction may throw light on it very quickly.

I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look.  And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.
[/quote]

It sounds like you've figured out that your look is fine, probably better than fine. and you're being overly paranoid. The 5 year olds test is fool proof 😊 But if you still wanna swap pics for feedback I would welcome that. I will send some real life pics in real life lighting. I ask for nothing but honesty too and that's all I have is honesty. 😐

OK sent your a private message with a couple links. Thanks.  I just ask not to make these 'public'.

Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 02:08:45 PM
I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look.  And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.


It sounds like you've figured out that your look is fine, probably better than fine. and you're being overly paranoid. The 5 year olds test is fool proof 😊 But if you still wanna swap pics for feedback I would welcome that. I will send some real life pics in real life lighting. I ask for nothing but honesty too and that's all I have is honesty. 😐

So true about the kids. They helped me figure out last time I was really unsure and had some misgenderings after so many years what it was - they just straight told me "you have a mans voice", so that was pretty unambiguous. It helped me to decide what to do next at that time - so I got my voice surgery. Now, things are probably just up to me unless I happen to end up in another kindergarten class to teach for a weekend.

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 11:12:14 AM
Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they don't need this or that procedure and the Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get the forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore the chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done but they decided they didn't need. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?"  Most of us don't want to be jerks that are dashing peoples hope. It makes us look like jerks.  So we say something "costructive"  or nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for nothing....or worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better what they need than the Dr., and then complain about or just plain "bad" results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
     If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are too empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. It just all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt

I could not agree anymore. Seems there's a trend to feeling like "you don't need much, when in actuality .. you needed the whole darn list. I viewed one YouTube girls result..and she was one of the ones that vouched not to get everything because she didn't feel it.. she still looka lika man .

This topic reminds me of this Seinfeld episode
Where Kramer blurts out George's gf
Needs a nose job. We need more Kramers in this world.

A surgeon can only do so much...   I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man.   As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done.  He says I am borderline with the forehead.  I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed  with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us,  the surgeons can only do so much.  There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable.  Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither.   I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.

I just didn't want to go half-way with ffs and regret it.  I passed (sort of) before.  So of course here I am today. waltzing through the local grocery store... and this 16 year old kid does a double take, a triple take... he proceeds to look, look away, look, look away.. like he has some kind of spastic tick.  AGAIN its the old 'deer in headlight' phenomenon with the looks too. Its just so weird?! OMG I hope I never did that back in the 'old' days.  And again, it wasn't the 'what is that ewwww' kinda look either.

I just kind of coyly smiled. Maybe I should've asked him if my nose was performing tricks lol.

Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much...   I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man.   As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done.  He says I am borderline with the forehead.  I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed  with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us,  the surgeons can only do so much.  There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable.  Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither.   I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.

Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much...   I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man.   As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done.  He says I am borderline with the forehead.  I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed  with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us,  the surgeons can only do so much.  There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable.  Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither.   I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.

I'm going to Dr z . Next month.. if you don't mind me asking what all did you?

Quote from: lovelessheart on May 22, 2017, 04:50:25 PM
I could not agree anymore. Seems there's a trend to feeling like "you don't need much, when in actuality .. you needed the whole darn list. I viewed one YouTube girls result..and she was one of the ones that vouched not to get everything because she didn't feel it.. she still looka lika man .

So how can one get a true and honest assessment? I find it hard since surgeons seem to either try and sell you a whole list of all they can do - or shy back and tell you that you do need nothing or just a little bit - asking trans women either you get a whole list - usually by those who had all of it done themselves and think it served them well - also by those who know about all those things - or you get people telling you that you look so good you need nothing and that whoever is commenting would be happy to switch. I even was asked if I was a former patient when I was at a consultation.
I think we probably are going to need more independent counsellors who will get paid for making a good and honest assessment and suggest the best procedures from what is available worldwide. VFFS does something like that, although I guess some people now are questioning the independence, as she works so closely with Facialteam. Still I found her assessment to be quite in the middle between the extremes I heard otherwise.

Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much...   I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man. 

Yes totally. I sometimes saw photos and when I met the person face to face they just appeared a lot more masculine - or in some cases the reverse is true.

Quote from: anjaq on May 23, 2017, 06:17:00 AM
So how can one get a true and honest assessment?

I have been wondering that for years. People close to me are terrified to say anything negative and I don't fully trust plastic surgeons who are in business to change your face. All I can say is I am in nyc and would offer an unbiased assessment to anyone who would like it...at least as unbiased as I can possibly be given the fact I'm in the same boat 😊. I wish we had this service avail to us outside of VFFS. The in-person assessment I think is so much more valuable.

Quote from: Jujubee on May 23, 2017, 06:58:19 AM
I have been wondering that for years. People close to me are terrified to say anything negative and I don't fully trust plastic surgeons who are in business to change your face.

Yes - which would usually mean that a surgeonwould tend to sell you more than needed, rather than less, but apparently they also try to be careful to not be judged as salespeople, so I do not know how they determine how much they will suggest. People close to oneself are the worst. They almost always will say that they love you as you are and you do not need to pay a lot of money and change the face. They want you to stay as you are, as they know you and think the money is better spend on a really cool vacation or a small house.

QuoteAll I can say is I am in nyc and would offer an unbiased assessment to anyone who would like it...

Sadly thats a bit far for me. But nice for those nearby. I guess a lot of these things have to go over the internet, as local communities are pretty small. I went to a local group some 2 years ago and it was pathetic. Maybe 15 people. I tried to talk about my voice surgery and to say it is working and a viable solution but people were not interested at all, they preferred to drink a beer and chat about the troubles they have with work and family because coming out, I guess.

I honestly found the easiest way is to do closeup pics and maybe a youtube short clip of you chatting... you can see so much more than a simple snapshot this way. Behaviors, mannerisms, voice, its all there in an actual video recording.  Of course the best test is 'real life' where either you get sirred or mammed.

Well if you get sirred in any situation, then that is of course very obvious. But between that and being regarded as just another woman is still a mile. At least where I live, few people would be so rude and call a person obviously presenting as female "sir". One has to look for more soft clues about the perception of other people.