Quote from: lady amarant on March 02, 2008, 02:04:05 AM
The US military invented something good, at least!

Now, my dear, DARPA indeed started the Internet, but let's never forget that it was High Energy Physicists at CERN (Geneva) who invented the Web!

(and then, just a few years later, the US Congress killed SSC.  > Sorry. It's a bit of a sore spot.)

Hi Alyssa M. I can't let you hang like that on that cliff, least ways not without some back up support from bellow. Welcome to Susan's hon

Cindy

I picked "yes", but I'm not clear about something.  Is there a connection between GID and the internet? Transition and the WWW?  If there is, what is it? 

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 02, 2008, 02:57:28 AM
Now, my dear, DARPA indeed started the Internet, but let's never forget that it was High Energy Physicists at CERN (Geneva) who invented the Web!

(and then, just a few years later, the US Congress killed SSC.  > Sorry. It's a bit of a sore spot.)

hehe. point taken... 

Cindy -- the woman in the photo is Lynn Hill. I guess you could say I've got a huge "girl crush" on her.

Don't worry about Lynn -- I'm sure all her pro is bomber!

Thanks for the welcome Cindy -- it's always nice to know you're on belay. 

Posted on: March 02, 2008, 03:48:20 AM

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Quote from: Leslie on March 02, 2008, 03:32:50 AM
I picked "yes", but I'm not clear about something.  Is there a connection between GID and the internet? Transition and the WWW?  If there is, what is it? 

I think the idea is that without groups like this or web sites like tsroadmap or Lynn Conway's site that it's a lot harder to get decent information about your options, so you're less likely to transition, even if it's really what you want.

Quote from: Leslie on March 02, 2008, 03:32:50 AM
I picked "yes", but I'm not clear about something.  Is there a connection between GID and the internet? Transition and the WWW?  If there is, what is it? 

It's more about that the proliferation of knowledge on ->-bleeped-<-, and the availability of a somewhat anonymous way of retrieving that information that I'm referring to.  For example, how many people live in places where the idea of a transsexual or any transgendered person is so taboo that the mere thought that someone might be results in them getting shunned out of existence, or otherwise treated horribly?  In these areas, I would expect that the information wouldn't be available in the way it is now, if at all if it wasn't for the Internet and people taking the time and effort to put up and make sites like this one.

Now we know there were the few and proud pioneers who went forward (no names needed to be mentioned) whose stories we may (or may not) have heard about without this proliferation of knowledge.  Many people prior to the Internet becoming a social medium available pretty much anywhere, well I wonder for them if it weren't so easily accessible in an anonymous way as it is, would they have sought help?  Would they have just gone on with their lives?

For many on here, these types of boards and chat rooms have become to be therapeutic, more often than not acting as a "proxy therapist" by allowing them to be able to talk to people who have received therapy.  Many people (myself included) give much advice or thoughts on things taken directly from our therapy sessions. 

That's more what I'm getting at with this.  Not the idea that "without the Internet, would you have been a transsexual to begin with?"  I'm not trying to give the impression that this poll is a sorting hat between who is really a TS and who isn't.  It's about whether they would've been able to follow through.

-Kit

Re: Would you have transitioned or started if it weren't for the Internet?

I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 1984......which proceeded the internet by about 12 years! I was taking hormones in 1986...

I agree the internet is a good tool for locating surgeons and making friends with like minded people but to say the internet is a catalist for people deciding if they are transsexual or not is insulting to say the least....

Quoteto say the internet is a catalist for people deciding if they are transsexual or not is insulting

I personally cannot see how this is insulting. If people had no access to books, television, internet etc with information about trassexuality would they still be one ? IMHO Of Course. Can this information be a catalyst to them both deciding and accepting that they have this condition and starting to do something about it ?  I think it absolutely can and I myself fail to understand how this is an insult.

Quote
I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 1984......which proceeded the internet by about 12 years

The internet was around long before '96. and you had access to somebody could diagnose you, not everybody has this privilege. I think they would be many lost souls if there was not so much information around.

im with Dawnlette.... Ofcourse its a catalyst.... same as books, or someone who knows.... it helps you see what the hell is wrong with you!

The sudden rush to mention they 'have transitioned pre internet' by so many in this topic seems amusing, like its a ->-bleeped-<- badge of honour to have done it the old way... like the complaining routine of 'how hard it was "back in the day"' in ANY topic that deals with primarys and seconderies
R >

Quote from: dawn on March 02, 2008, 04:43:45 AM

Quoteto say the internet is a catalist for people deciding if they are transsexual or not is insulting

I personally cannot see how this is insulting. If people had no access to books, television, internet etc with information about trassexuality would they still be one ? IMHO Of Course. Can this information be a catalyst to them both deciding and accepting that they have this condition and starting to do something about it ?  I think it absolutely can and I myself fail to understand how this is an insult.

Quote
I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 1984......which proceeded the internet by about 12 years

The internet was around long before '96. and you had access to somebody could diagnose you, not everybody has this privilege. I think they would be many lost souls if there was not so much information around.

I have been a computer buff since the 1980's and the internet was still in it's infancy in 1996 when I used to surf the net and there wasn't a lot on it....

The original question was 'Would you have transitioned or started if it weren't for the Internet'? and I would say if the internet existed or not, people would still be on the same path because we are born this way..

yes, but if you dont know what it is. the pain would be worse, and your more likely to eventually suceed with killing youself... many have said this.... the internet saved thier lives...

Some can transition in thier teens without help, id say most dont know what the feelings are. and they get so overpowering most cant live with it... the internet is simply a media for information, we found the info, we survived, celebrate it, dont treat us like leppers for using an 'easy access' media that you think makes you better somehow because you did it first and without it...


Someone learns to ride a bike without trianing wheels and just rides around thier street, yet thier friend learns WITH training wheels, and goes on to win the tour de france... whos the better cyclist? the one with help or not?
R >

QuoteI would say if the internet existed or not, people would still be on the same path because we are born this way..

_More_ people would _not_ know that "the path" even existed. This this not mean they are, or are not TG.

Quote from: Berliegh on March 02, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
I have been a computer buff since the 1980's and the internet was still in it's infancy in 1996 when I used to surf the net and there wasn't a lot on it....

The original question was 'Would you have transitioned or started if it weren't for the Internet'? and I would say if the internet existed or not, people would still be on the same path because we are born this way..

The question isn't "are you a transsexual because of the Internet?"  The choices are the difference between "would you have transitioned or started if the Internet didn't exist?" and the other implied alternative, "would you have not transitioned or not started if the Internet didn't exist?"  I certainly assume that GID is there regardless of whether the Internet exists.  But whether someone accepts it or not is based upon whether the information was available in the first place for them to accept it. 

That you got diagnosed in the 1980's implies that your therapist or whomever started the ball rolling towards your being diagnosed with gender dysphoria had the information available to diagnose it.  That the information is more available now and has been growing steadily since the Internet started budding, that's not in question either.

As far as is known, most people that have GID don't seek therapy, however we know that the number of people diagnosed/treated for GID/self treating is increasing steadily.  There has to be a cause for that, and putting this question out there is me wondering is it because the information is just more readily available, or perhaps some other reason?

I'm certainly open to alternatives.

-Kit

P.S. To add just a bit to what I said, yes it is so much easier access to finding information not just about surgeons, but it is also much easier to find gender therapists.  I know even today it's still hard in many areas to walk into any therapist's office and be referred to a good gender specialist, assuming someone walked into the therapist's office to begin with, and once there they were able to tell the therapist about their GID without being armed.

And I'm sure there's a trickle down effect where a therapist who was unprepared for someone to come in and discuss that went home and googled gender identity disorder.

Quote from: DarthKitty on March 02, 2008, 05:25:26 AM
As far as is known, most people that have GID don't seek therapy, however we know that the number of people diagnosed/treated for GID/self treating is increasing steadily.  There has to be a cause for that, and putting this question out there is me wondering is it because the information is just more readily available, or perhaps some other reason?

I'm certainly open to alternatives.

-Kit

Yes, there's an alternative. There is some evidence that chemicals in the environment and in the food supply (rBGH, atrazine, certain plastics and coatings for plastics) can mimic sex hormones or affect how they work.

How big of an effect might this be? Nobody knows. Nobody really knows what causes GID in the first place -- it's all really guesses still. Nobody knows how much exposure we have to these chemicals. And nobody knows how they actually affect humans.

My $.02 is that I doubt it's a very large effect, though I believe it's real. There's also some evidence that GID is mostly prenatal, so environmental factors would be surpressed a lot. More importantly, societal change (including the growth of the Web) seems so much more parsimonious an explanation.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 02, 2008, 05:42:51 AM
Yes, there's an alternative. There is some evidence that chemicals in the environment and in the food supply (rBGH, atrazine, certain plastics and coatings for plastics) can mimic sex hormones or affect how they work.

How big of an effect might this be? Nobody knows. Nobody really knows what causes GID in the first place -- it's all really guesses still. Nobody knows how much exposure we have to these chemicals. And nobody knows how they actually affect humans.

My $.02 is that I doubt it's a very large effect, though I believe it's real. There's also some evidence that GID is mostly prenatal, so environmental factors would be surpressed a lot. More importantly, societal change (including the growth of the Web) seems so much more parsimonious an explanation.

I think the environment plays a huge role in this - are we really gonna claim we are largely unaffected when Salmon stocks are plummeting due to the number of sterile intersexed fish born, or that polar bears will most likely die out before all the ice melts because all the females are turning lesbian? Gender variance has always been around as a natural thing, but our interference has pushed it into overdrive.

The chemical and pharmaeceutical industries have done a number on the world, and now the biotech nuts are taking over, who knows what comes next.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 02, 2008, 05:42:51 AM
Yes, there's an alternative. There is some evidence that chemicals in the environment and in the food supply (rBGH, atrazine, certain plastics and coatings for plastics) can mimic sex hormones or affect how they work.

How big of an effect might this be? Nobody knows. Nobody really knows what causes GID in the first place -- it's all really guesses still. Nobody knows how much exposure we have to these chemicals. And nobody knows how they actually affect humans.

My $.02 is that I doubt it's a very large effect, though I believe it's real. There's also some evidence that GID is mostly prenatal, so environmental factors would be surpressed a lot. More importantly, societal change (including the growth of the Web) seems so much more parsimonious an explanation.

Yes I agree the number of people who have GID could be increasing greatly from these chemicals being introduced to the environment and otherwise.  There's such a huge number of explanations around that could explain for what's going on these days.  I think ten good explanations are much better than pushing for a single one as being the be all end all definitions of why GID exists, or what people need to grab on to as an explanation as to why they are who they are.

But I guess I'm more looking for alternatives for as to how people are able to get through this in the first place, when in the past they wouldn't have? 

Culture definitely is a big player in all this (the web inclusive.)  But beyond the web what other examples of major changes have made it more possible today for people to transition than fifteen years ago, that if they were removed more people would instead cope than transition?

-Kit

The Internet only informs gives one the opportunity to learn if you are a TS or not and I agree with the statement you are born TS but you may not understand know what it is without information so how in Sam Hill are you supposed to seek help if there is no access to the that type of information. I remember when My sister and I use to play dress up when I was about four years old. Her clothes wouldn't fit so she dressed my with her dolls clothes, Ya I even remember vividly even after that many years. it was as tall as I was, it had shoulder length curly blond hair, beautiful blue glass eyes and pink cheeks and it would say mommy when you move it.

Well after all we both played with that doll. Anyway after my sister dressed me and generously decorating my lips with lipstick she would bring me into the living room wearing the blue dress from her doll. She would parade me before my parent informing them I was her new sister. I remember and man do I remember prancing around the living room so proud on myself.

Now to speed up the clock to the year of 19 and 62 when I ran away from home to join the hippies. I had my hair butt length and wore unisex clothes. I hitchhiked from southern Ontario all the way to New York city. Got rides mostly with truckers and they thought I was a girl, believe me I wasn't about to dissuade then from the notion either. I was a late bloomer like I didn't start looking anything like a young man until I was 25 years old. Anyway I ended up staying at the commune for two years, even had me a boyfriend and I can remember clearly to this day what he looked like. I was also quartered with the girls, a good many of the girls were runaways like myself.

Anyways circumstances mad it so I had to leave and go back home. It wouldn't be until 36 years later before I would discover there was a label that went with this.... disorder for lack of a better word had. Point being if I had known in 62 what I was, I could have easily and gladly transitioned back then. I was certainly a shoe in for the roll of being a girl anyway. There was no computers then and actually I didn't find out until 10 years ago about transsexualism. I over heard a couple of folk talking about it where I worked. Curiosity got the cat and I went to the library to do me a little research and 2 years later I got me a computer and found much more information on TS'ism then I found this place. Now 8 years later I sits here again transition complete.

All those years without a computer, can you imagine how much a computer would have benefited me back in 62? Bugger huh, to borrow the phrase from a good friend that I met in a sky-fi Internet group from the UK, about, well not certain when, but it was before I started transitioning my user name was Maryjane. What a wonderful guy, his user name was Master. He was a real gallant night in shining armor in the presence of the ladies. At least I discovered  there were some gallantry among some of the gentlemen in the UK. I also had a wonderful friend there also, her user name was Princess Ivy. I spent several months with her on MSN helping her through a nasty divorce.

Oh yes the good old days, yes, certainly, got nothing against my child hood growing up. I had only really one good friend, her name was Helen, we ran together like a couple of ragamuffins for five years then never saw her again.  Can you imagine what could of happened to me if I would have come out back then? Well it almost happen once when I had my long hair and still wearing unisex clothes. I was hitchhiking home from down town and this car pulled over and opened the door and waved for me t get in. I did and it wasn't a mile down the road when that pig had or tried to get his hands in my pants. I managed to get out of the car when it was still moving and I roiled a couple of times but once I got to my feet I was off like a scared jack rabbit into the wood.  Ah to be a kid agin, what am I saying, I'm still a kid, I refuse to grow up. Sorry for the book. Just wanted to show what it was like precomputers and postcomputers.

Cindy

 

Quote from: cindybc on March 02, 2008, 07:22:02 AM
Anyways circumstances mad it so I had to leave and go back home. It wouldn't be until 36 years later before I would discover there was a label that went with this.... disorder for lack of a better word had. Point being if I had known in 62 what I was, I could have easily and gladly transitioned back then. I was certainly a shoe in for the roll of being a girl anyway. There was no computers then and actually I didn't find out until 10 years ago about transsexualism. I over heard a couple of folk talking about it where I worked. Curiosity got the cat and I went to the library to do me a little research and 2 years later I got me a computer and found much more information on TS'ism then I found this place. Now 8 years later I sits here again transition complete.

All those years without a computer, can you imagine how much a computer would have benefited me back in 62? Bugger huh, to borrow the phrase from a good friend that I met in a sky-fi Internet group from the UK, about, well not certain when, but it was before I started transitioning my user name was Maryjane. What a wonderful guy, his user name was Master. He was a real gallant night in shining armor in the presence of the ladies. At least I discovered  there were some gallantry among some of the gentlemen in the UK. I also had a wonderful friend there also, her user name was Princess Ivy. I spent several months with her on MSN helping her through a nasty divorce.

Oh yes the good old days, yes, certainly, got nothing against my child hood growing up. I had only really one good friend, her name was Helen, we ran together like a couple of ragamuffins for five years then never saw her again.  Can you imagine what could of happened to me if I would have come out back then? Well it almost happen once when I had my long hair and still wearing unisex clothes. I was hitchhiking home from down town and this car pulled over and opened the door and waved for me t get in. I did and it wasn't a mile down the road when that pig had or tried to get his hands in my pants. I managed to get out of the car when it was still moving and I roiled a couple of times but once I got to my feet I was off like a scared jack rabbit into the wood.  Ah to be a kid agin, what am I saying, I'm still a kid, I refuse to grow up. Sorry for the book. Just wanted to show what it was like precomputers and postcomputers.

Cindy

 

You have a lot of similar circumstaces to my own Cindy and your posts are always interesting..

Same thing happened to me in 78 when I was a very young androgenous teenager, I was hitching and a guy who was in the forces picked me up tried to rape me and nearly suceeded.......I hit him while the car was moving and he stopped and I ran for my life..

Thanks for the book Cindy -- it was a good read!

Quote from: DarthKitty on March 02, 2008, 06:34:10 AM
But I guess I'm more looking for alternatives for as to how people are able to get through this in the first place, when in the past they wouldn't have? 

Culture definitely is a big player in all this (the web inclusive.)  But beyond the web what other examples of major changes have made it more possible today for people to transition than fifteen years ago, that if they were removed more people would instead cope than transition?

-Kit

DK -- Here's some speculation for you. Other than the Web, advanced in treatment (therapy, hormones, surgury); more media images of trans people (mostly negative, but not entirely); a more mobile society (so you can more easily find people without preconceived notions of you, and also move to safer communities in general); and generally broader acceptance of LGBT people (starting, of course, with the L, G, and B) have all made it a lot easier.

For me, the Internet was the most important (if only chronologically), because it's the first place I ever saw positive images of trans people. That did me a lot of good in resolving issues of guilt and shame, of which I had plenty. After that, the next was the general openness, which has allowed me to get support from friends. I don't think I could have gotten nearly as much support think 15 years ago (though I was just a kid then -- what do I know?). I definitely see attitudes among people under 30 as being far more open to transgender identities than among people that are older.

Never trust anyone over 30, right Cindy?

Hi Alyssa M.

But of course, politeness  Either drive the Cadillac or take the Ferrari. But hey it seems I can way better understand kids then adults, adults are boring. Old Hippies never die, they just smell that way.