This is super complicated, but I think eventually ->-bleeped-<- will fall under the intersex category. It's been said that the human brain is the largest sexual organ in the body. So one could argue that if the gender of the brain doesn't match the physical gender at the time of birth, then by definition you have an intersex condition. The issue is there is no clear difference on what a male of female brain looks like even thought there are some ideals [ur=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/l]here[/url].

My surgeon informed me that when she got in there that I was indeed intersex in that my genitals were not fully formed and there was some scar tissue from either tucking (which she doubted) or there was surgery there a long time ago. There was also scar tissue from surgery of my bowel and the first questioned she asked me after surgery is whether or not I had surgery in those places. I told her to the best of my knowledge that I did not, but when I was 6 years old I remember having a bloody rectum and having to put medicine there. My mother denied any of this and I could tell she was lying about it. (She uses a certain phrase when she lies and doesn't realize that she does it.) This memory has come up with my therapist and we explored it through EMDR, but nothing come out as far as being sexually molested or anything like that. I also do know that my mother was exposed to DES and that most likely I just stopped developing as male at some point and developed female later on, which we do know the brain develops (11-24 weeks) after the genitals (7 weeks) do.

The thing is where does the line get drawn on what is an intersex condition. If I can be classified as intersex with genitals not fully formed then who is to say that this would also apply with the development of gender in the brain. One thing is for sure, even though it's only been 9 days since my GCS. Every feels like where is should be now more than ever. Peeing still feels different since it was one way for so many years, but everything else just feels right now. My mind matches my genitals more now that ever before in my life.

I'm enjoying this discussion, and want to expand on my personal experience.  I think it is valuable and possibly helpful to others.

Most people do not distinguish between sex and gender.  Gaining acceptance as transgender people is a matter of breaking down this view.  The way I see it, sex is biological and deterministic, whereas gender is social and relative.  A large part of the transgender movement is pushing society to stop conflating sex and gender.  I think that makes sense.  In the absence of other people, gender is meaningless, but one's physical body is real and consequential.

I was born intersex.  That is, I was born, from a biological standpoint, neither completely male, nor completely female.  I consider the sexual differentiation of the brain as important as the sexual differentiation of the genitals when assessing an intersex condition.  My diagnosis of intersexuality came very late in life, which is sometimes the case for intersex people.  Being intersex had real impact on my life, much of it negative.   Four years ago, I learned that the cause of my psychological distress was due to being intersex, and I began steps to alleviate the symptoms.

Up to that point, I identified as a boy/man.  Using today's terminology, I was a cisgender male.  I had no conscious sense of being a girl/woman.  I had no desire to change genders.  I didn't habitually cross-dress.   I accepted the expectations of the male gender that I was assigned at birth.  I didn't put on an act to fool people.  Frankly, I thought the way I felt was the way all males felt.  Looking back, there were plenty of clues telling me otherwise, but I dismissed them as being aberrations, personal peculiarities, and sometimes frightening perversions.

My dysphoria which began during puberty had nothing to do with gender identity.  It was purely a physiological consequence of having been born with a brain that was not adequately masculinized in the later stages of my mother's pregnancy.  Then, in my teens, my brain was subjected to high normal male levels of testosterone.  It was then that I began experiencing stress, anxiety and depression, and it only got worse with the passage of time.

When coping strategies eventually failed, and my search for answers suggested that my symptoms might be due to my brain having developed without adequate neurological androgen receptors, I decided to put the theory to the test.   I started HRT.   When my total T level dropped below 100 ng/dl, the improvement in mental health was remarkable.  I had never experienced such clarity and peace of mind.  When I came off HRT, and my former chemistry was restored, mental anxiety and depression returned full force.   I had confirmed that my brain could not function smoothly without estrogen.  I resumed HRT and began what would evolve into a complete gender transition. 

Today, you could say that I am transgender because I changed my gender identity from man to woman.  I present full-time as a woman.  It's how I see myself today, and how society sees me.  But beyond that, you could say that I'm transsexual because I changed my sexual identity (not sexual orientation) from male to female.  I physically transformed my bodily sex from male to female.  Being physically female makes life easier, of course, but the main reason I endured the trauma and expense of surgical alternation of my body was to reconcile it with my own internal self image as a woman.  It was the second half of my gender dysphoria -- that awful sense of being trapped in the wrong body.

Given the diversity of the transgender community, I'm not for a minute saying that other transgender people are intersex.  But for me, it's the only thing that makes sense.  I grew up in a normal, intact family, never subjected to sexual abuse, did well in school, had a successful career, got married, and raised children.  I was a traditional conformist if ever there was one.    What intersex means to me as a transsexual woman is that the reason for my needing to transition genders and transform my physical being was due to a congenital birth defect.  Knowing that is somehow comforting to me.  It was my fate.  I don't blame myself or anyone else.

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on November 11, 2017, 01:40:36 PM
This is super complicated, but I think eventually ->-bleeped-<- will fall under the intersex category. It's been said that the human brain is the largest sexual organ in the body. So one could argue that if the gender of the brain doesn't match the physical gender at the time of birth, then by definition you have an intersex condition. The issue is there is no clear difference on what a male of female brain looks like even thought there are some ideals [ur=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/l]here[/url].

My surgeon informed me that when she got in there that I was indeed intersex in that my genitals were not fully formed and there was some scar tissue from either tucking (which she doubted) or there was surgery there a long time ago. There was also scar tissue from surgery of my bowel and the first questioned she asked me after surgery is whether or not I had surgery in those places. I told her to the best of my knowledge that I did not, but when I was 6 years old I remember having a bloody rectum and having to put medicine there. My mother denied any of this and I could tell she was lying about it. (She uses a certain phrase when she lies and doesn't realize that she does it.) This memory has come up with my therapist and we explored it through EMDR, but nothing come out as far as being sexually molested or anything like that. I also do know that my mother was exposed to DES and that most likely I just stopped developing as male at some point and developed female later on, which we do know the brain develops (11-24 weeks) after the genitals (7 weeks) do.

The thing is where does the line get drawn on what is an intersex condition. If I can be classified as intersex with genitals not fully formed then who is to say that this would also apply with the development of gender in the brain. One thing is for sure, even though it's only been 9 days since my GCS. Every feels like where is should be now more than ever. Peeing still feels different since it was one way for so many years, but everything else just feels right now. My mind matches my genitals more now that ever before in my life.

Yeah Sydney. I really don't know. I can Use DES but I really can't either. I man my junk is the size of a five year old boys and hasn't grown since I was 5. I did grow boobs in puberty though. A cups and noticeable.

Intersexed? I am looking down right now and "it" is less than one inch long. It almost looks like an XL Clitoris.

I am a trans woman. I don't want nor need any excuses. Whatever happened in the womb just happened. Nothing will change the fact that I am a trans woman though. I don't know what happened that made me trans or don't even care. I am just sort of thankful of it. That sounds messed up but I know both minds so that is a good thing right???

Quote from: Jenntrans on November 13, 2017, 04:09:55 PM
Yeah Sydney. I really don't know. I can Use DES but I really can't either. I man my junk is the size of a five year old boys and hasn't grown since I was 5. I did grow boobs in puberty though. A cups and noticeable.

Intersexed? I am looking down right now and "it" is less than one inch long. It almost looks like an XL Clitoris.

I am a trans woman. I don't want nor need any excuses. Whatever happened in the womb just happened. Nothing will change the fact that I am a trans woman though. I don't know what happened that made me trans or don't even care. I am just sort of thankful of it. That sounds messed up but I know both minds so that is a good thing right???

It all good.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify my being transgender with DES or intersex, I am what I am and that's it and at the end of the day it doesn't change anything. I'm just saying there is a collation between transgender being classified as an intersex condition. Perhaps transgender is in itself one thing under the intersex umbrella if the gender of the brain does not match the gender assigned at birth.

All that matters now is that I've transitioned completely and now I begin living life the gender I should have lived all along.

I've always leaned toward thinking that transgender is typically an intersex condition of the brain, and also that it's likely many people who identify as transgender may fall into the intersex category without ever realizing or recieving the diagnosis.

While I could be wrong, I've often thought that if transgender were understood as a type of intersex with a physically inborn component then then transgender people would be seen with more validity by society as a whole

Quote from: extraaction on November 14, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
I've always leaned toward thinking that transgender is typically an intersex condition of the brain, and also that it's likely many people who identify as transgender may fall into the intersex category without ever realizing or recieving the diagnosis.

While I could be wrong, I've often thought that if transgender were understood as a type of intersex with a physically inborn component then then transgender people would be seen with more validity by society as a whole

Around the world, many Intersex babies won't be recognized as people, due to how many cultures view us.  Making ->-bleeped-<- some sort of Intersex condition, isn't going to make things any better.  Many of us have had our bodies violated, mostly after birth.


Here is the qeustion, why do you care? 

Quote from: AlexISAlex on January 06, 2018, 01:34:12 AM
Here is the qeustion, why do you care?

Many of us struggle to know ourselves.  It's been the challenge of my life, and I'm only beginning to understand why I am as I am.  My first serious attempt to answer that question took place while I was in college.  I had access to virtually everything written about human sexuality at the university where I studied.  What I learned from the experts of that day was more hurtful than helpful.  Being told you have a psychological disorder is a horrible burden to bear at any age.

The view that ->-bleeped-<- is some form of mental derangement/delusion continues today across a broad spectrum of the general population.  Even the so called experts don't agree on the causes of ->-bleeped-<-.  To further the confusion, the term transgender has come to include all forms of gender variant behavior, including forms that most likely are psychological in origin which only serves to reinforce the mindset that all transgender people suffer from a mental disorder.

It was somewhat comforting for me to learn that I was born partly female.  I'm talking sex, not gender.  My brain was not sufficiently masculinized during fetal development.  Knowing that my condition resulted from biological processes that neither I nor anyone else had control over, takes away the shame and the guilt of being trans.  I am but another variation in the sexual development of human beings in utero.

Why do I identify as intersex?  Because as I understand the biology, the incomplete formation of the genitals and the incomplete masculinization of the brain are caused by the same hormonal forces, only separated on the gestation timeline.  Intersex is about sex, not gender.  My situation was not so much about gender identity as it was about the physiological incompatibility of my body and brain, the physical symptoms of which were eliminated by HRT.  Gender transition and genital surgery followed as a consequence of HRT.  They were never primary motivations during my lifetime.

I understand the reluctance of intersex people to expand the definition of intersexuality to include those with body-brain incompatibility.  I understand the stigma that intersex people have to endure.  I just wish that people could understand that having genitals that don't reflect your gender identity, whether they are ambiguously formed, surgically mutilated in childhood, or normal looking, have similar consequences on the mental health and well-being of the individual. 

The problem with not recognizing mind-body incongruity as type of intersex condition is that people like me (and particularly children) have to fight for proper medical treatment by overcoming the widespread perception that their condition is a mental rather than a physical health issue. 

while not all intersex people are transgender (many will identify as intersex/nonbinary), i think it is important that we acknowledge transgender as a type of intersex condition.  just because the external parts may not be visibly intersex doesn't mean there is not a physical/biological component.  "transgender" is something that happens internally--in the brain--rather than externally, but it is not a "mental disorder", and recognizing this fact is critical to getting adequate healthcare and treatment. 

edit; i think the poster above me said all this much more clearly and eloquently

Quote from: kuudos on August 30, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
I've seen both sides to the argument - Intersex people saying that being trans is different from being interesex, but I've also heard trans people make good points: ->-bleeped-<- has been categorized by some medical practitioners as an intersex disorder, a mixture of a brain-body switch and hormones present during fetal stage that didn't fully develop, along with the fact that transgender individuals undergoing transition fit the loose definition of intersex - Having physical qualities from both sexes. I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again after I did research and learned that transmales often have a mixture of both genitals, even a clit that can get fully erect.

There's a popular, but incorrect, belief that whether you develop as male or female depends on whether you have XY or XX chromosomes. In fact, all the X and Y chromosomes do is, about 6 weeks into your embryonic development, cause you to develop either ovaries or testicles. Everything from that point onwards is driven by hormones. More specifically, if you have functional testicles churning out their usual complement of hormones (and your body is able to respond to those hormones), you'll develop as male. Otherwise you'll develop as female instead. Whether your chromosomes are XX or XY doesn't make any difference. This is easily demonstrated by a condition called Swyer's Syndrome,  in which the testicles of a genetically male fetus fail to develop.

Here's an example of one such person:
https://www.interfaceproject.org/ali-von-klan/

as you can see, despite being genetically male, she both looks and behaves just like any normal woman would. She was born with female genitals, and has all the female internal reproductive organs too (apart from ovaries). With the appropriate hormone treatment to mature her uterus and with eggs implanted via donor IVF, she could even fall pregnant and give birth. That's how important testicular hormones are in determining sex!

There's a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), which also produces people who are genetically male but developmentally female, and who both look and behave like women. With CAIS, the testicles do actually develop as normal and produce their hormones like they should, however the condition involves a mutation that renders that person completely unresponsive to the androgenic hormones the testicles produce, so all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. As with Swyer's syndrome, the result is a person who appears female at birth, looks and behaves like a girl while growing up, and often doesn't even discover until her teenage years that she's unusual in any way. This allows us to narrow things down even further and say that it's mainly testosterone and a hormone derived from it called dihydrotestosterone (or DHT), that causes a person to develop as male. Without those hormones, you develop as female instead, even if you have XY chromosomes.



This is a diagram taken from an endocrinology textbook, showing the key events in male genital development. You can see how nearly all the important stuff takes place from week 7 to week 12 after conception, the only further development taking place after that point is enlargement of the penis and testicular descent.

If the testicular hormone production of a genetically male baby goes wrong between week 7 and week 12, that person will be born with hypospadias, or in really severe cases the scrotum will be split and have a cavity in the middle. If their testicular hormone production goes wrong from week 13 onwards, there won't be much physical evidence of it apart from possibly undescended testicles and/or a penis that's shorter than normal. The medical definition of intersex is based around genitals, so under that definition, intersex people are those who had something go wrong with their hormones between week 7 and 12 after conception.

However, it's not just the genitals that differ between the sexes. There are important differences in the brain as well, that drive most of the differences between adult men's and women's social and sexual behaviour (and your inner sense of whether you're a man or a woman). As with the genitals, those brain differences are driven by the presence or absence of testicular hormones. We know this because, among other things, scientists have produced female animals with male brains and male behaviour, just by exposing them to externally administered testosterone at the appropriate stage in their prenatal development. Exposing female fetuses to testosterone early in their development mainly affects their genitals; later in development it mainly affects the sex of their brain and their subsequent adult behaviour.

So, intersex isn't just something that can affect the genitals. It can affect the brain as well, and there's increasing scientific evidence that being transgender is caused by a form of intersex affecting the brain.

Unfortunately, none of this seems to have filtered through to the world of medicine, where doctors have happily been treating pregnant women with hormones of various kinds ever since the 1940s (when it first became possible to mass produce hormones for use as medicines). Due to differences in the way fetal metabolism works, at least two hormones that saw substantial use during pregnancy in the 1950s and 60s, ethisterone and norethisterone, turned out to be potent testosterone mimics in unborn babies. From 1940 to about 1980, an estrogen called diethystilbestrol (or DES), that acts as a powerful chemical castration agent in adult men, was extensively used in pregnancy too.

Considering the importance of testicular hormones (particularly testosterone) in determining whether you develop as male or female, exposing unborn babies to these drugs is an obvious recipe for disaster, and is likely to result in people who've partly developed as the wrong sex. Most of the exposure to these and other drugs given to prevent miscarriages tends to happen after the critical week 7 to week 12 period for genital development has ended, so you'd expect the result to be people who physically appear to be their genetic sex, but whose brain is the opposite sex or a mixture of male and female. That's what appears to have happened with DES, and I think it's happened with ethisterone and norethisterone too (although hardly anyone knows about these two drugs, since unlike DES there was no cancer scare and never any activist movement associated with them).

WOW, very interesting.

There is also an article directly in the Susan's ne s section with additional research on DES: https://www.susans.org/2018/01/02/des-exposure-intersex-development-males/

Follow the link to the original research... contains the same graphic!

HughE, have you seen any information on the skeletal change timeline?

I have searched for such information but it seems not readily available. Doctors tell me things in the bones like shape of the joints is prenatal but I have not seen where in the developmental timeline hormones effect these changes.

To be specific the joint profiles I know to look for as gender specific are the knee, elbows (to a lesser extent), and the sacroiliac joint profiles.

In the adult skeleton these are readily apparent but looking closely things like knee angles are visually different in children as is the pelvic width as the sacrum is already wider in pre-pubecienct younger kids.

The skeletal differences mainly arise as a result of the different hormones present in boys and girls as they go through puberty.

If you're a natal male but have lower than normal male levels of testosterone during childhood and puberty, it leads to you developing long, slender limbs and other skeletal proportions that are more like what you'd typically get in a woman rather than a man. This type of body structure is known as "eunuchoid habitus", and these are some of the characteristics associated with it:

* long, slender arms and legs
* feminine looking facial features
* legs significantly longer than the height of your upper body
* an armspan more than 3cm greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic area)
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
* a female carrying angle
* a female digit ratio
(in my case, I don't know if they apply more generally)
* small, high arched feet
* long, luxuriant eyelashes
* clear, acne free skin as a teenager

From what the medical literature says, it's the pubertal hormone surge that causes the differences between male and female skeletal proportions to arise, but you're right, I have noticed that you can already see the skeletal differences starting to develop in children well before they reach puberty. Although sex hormone production is quite low during childhood, maybe there's still enough of them being produced in children to have some effect on skeletal development.  Or maybe there's some other factor in addition to sex hormones. I don't think genetics (XX vs XY) has anything to do with it though, because XY women (e.g. Swyer's Syndrome, or Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) all seem to have female skeletal proportions.

I know most literature discusses those pubescent affected differences. The only thing I have to go on is a couple of doctors and a couple of PAs who all said the joint profiles are specifically prenatal as that is when the bone shapes themselves form. Everything after birth is bone growth but not shape.

When the subject of being trans comes up several medical professionals have shown some interest in the subject. So I have asked them if they wanted to see the 3d images of my CT scan. Medical people especially the newer generation seem really interested in the subject. So far they have all given my scans the confused look and a long "huh that's really interesting". One suggested I should show them to a physical therapist or radiologist and see what they think. As internists, they tend to say that they studied skeletal features early in med school but it's not their specialty.

Some of what I know in regards to adolescent growth matches alot of what you list. Girls are shorter overall because female hormones come in a years or so before males start. This triggers the beginning of calcification of the long bone growth plates. Male hormones also have effects in puberty increasing other bone sizes as well as skull bone growth of the mandible, brow ridge, cheek bone zygomatic arch increasing in length beyond the ear canal entry, larger muscle attachment ridges all over the skull, ect.

What doctors all say is prenatal is bone joint end profiles. The knees are so much different that companies now make gender specific artificial knees. These angles match the normally wider female pelvis so to make a person have straight lower legs. Young girls all show a markedly visable knock knee before puberty. Their sacrums are wider at a young age. The joint profile of the sacrum to ilium is very different between girls and boys. If examined closely even a young person shows these differences in a CT scan. Females have a sacrum that is approx 3* the width of the base of the spine where males are approximately 2* the total spine base width.

Quote from: natalie.ashlyne on November 07, 2017, 07:44:56 PM
No not all transgender people are intersex and not all intersex people are transgender. I am both I have female organs inside of me but I was AMAB as I have male parts as well. I have alway felt female and when I went to the Doctors I found out with after alot of tests.

Just out of curiosity, what was your final diagnosis?  I have 3 leading ones so far.  The most prevelant is gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact (Swyers with a bonus).. the others are pseudohermaphroditism and partial androgen insensitivity.  Personally I just think I got screwed but who's keeping score.    Been having non stop daily cramps for months and they can't seem to figure out why (ammenorhea).  Hopefully soon.  I have no internal male parts, had reassigned external stuff (somewhat ambiguous, but still erring on the amab side).. and the mullerian stuff (look it up, its good for you)

I can relate to all this, in fact could write a book but will try to keep it short.  Well after 10 years, 25 doctors and more tests then I can count I have one conclusion I firmly feel the Doctors do not care to,anyway in my case first was born in 1948 and 98% sure I was exposed to DES, which has resulted in "Form of variation of moasic kleinfelter syndrome". I was prescribed T for nearly 3 years and all that happened was my T levels went down my E levels increased but the osteoporosis excelerated, it was awful which came down to "partial androgen insensativity syndrome" and" hypogonadism" another doctor called it "an endrocain disruptor disorder" and finally another agreed with the others plus added "vanishing twin syndrome". I am blessed with general overall good health except for a spine which is a disaaster;I am now into my 5th year of estrogen and all blood work has stabilized, the osteoporosis has reversed (DEXA scans do not lie)but still disabled from the damage done. I guess I am both trans (have felt that way since age 5 or 6) and intersex. I thank you all for  posting it has been great help to me to know I am not alone if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask as there is much more then room he will permit, my prayers are with and for us all.

Quote from: DeidraDee on January 10, 2018, 04:57:20 AM
I can relate to all this, in fact could write a book but will try to keep it short.  Well after 10 years, 25 doctors and more tests then I can count I have one conclusion I firmly feel the Doctors do not care to,anyway in my case first was born in 1948 and 98% sure I was exposed to DES, which has resulted in "Form of variation of moasic kleinfelter syndrome". I was prescribed T for nearly 3 years and all that happened was my T levels went down my E levels increased but the osteoporosis excelerated, it was awful which came down to "partial androgen insensativity syndrome" and" hypogonadism" another doctor called it "an endrocain disruptor disorder" and finally another agreed with the others plus added "vanishing twin syndrome". I am blessed with general overall good health except for a spine which is a disaaster;I am now into my 5th year of estrogen and all blood work has stabilized, the osteoporosis has reversed (DEXA scans do not lie)but still disabled from the damage done. I guess I am both trans (have felt that way since age 5 or 6) and intersex. I thank you all for  posting it has been great help to me to know I am not alone if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask as there is much more then room he will permit, my prayers are with and for us all.

I specifically asked my mother if she used DES or any form of hormones when i was born, a question she flatly denies... then again I was born while father was in prison, she was lonely, and she's blatantly lied about so many things in the past its to the point I don't believe anything she sayd.  I do know I was given alleged 'allergy shots' around when I was 10 and experienced a tremendous growth spurt (literally a foot I grew) when I turned 11.  However, my voice didn't deepen and I did not develop any pubic hair.   There is something bad that happened, I know it... but getting her to admit is, good luck.  She wasn't shocked at all when I showed her I had no testosterone at all when I turned 21, but I DID have estrogen being produced.  She just calmly suggested I get on testosterone therapy or take herbal testosterone.  The world is full of people that will mislead you intentionally... she made an occupation out of it in my opinion.  She will admit to having calcium problems when I was born, and she got in a bad car accident too when she was pregnant with me.. she stated she was under terrible stress in that time (which I don't doubt); That's all I have been able to get her to admit.

I consider myself intersex for me I feel most of my suffering comes from being intersex not transgender. That's just a symptom of the issue. I have xx/xy chimerism but only like less than 10% of my genome is actually xy. Which is my problem. As a result I believe my brain has a more male genotype but much my body is xx (I still have xy karyotype in my body other than my brain like in my saliva). So I have always felt like I was male like I should have a male body in other words my twin brother but instead have a body like a female the twin sister. That results in me being intersex. It's rare though most intersex people identify with the gender they were assigned. For me the way my cells are distributed is just a matter of bad luck. At the end of the day it's the way I was born and the way GOD made me. I can't say I'd rather have died off completely. It's better to exist than not exist at all. Chimerism is when twins fuse together. It just happens I seem to be more my twin brother mentally and probably others ways I'm not aware of and reproductively and physically mostly my twin sister. So of course that's going to make for some issues. But nothing I can't work through.

Whether the cells within it are XX or XY cells doesn't appear to have any bearing on the sex of your brain. That depends on whether there were low or high levels of androgens present when it was forming.

I started out thinking I must have XX/XY chimerism because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I got to find out more about how the biology of sexual development works, the conclusion I eventually reached is that my genes are ordinary XY genes, and I would have been a completely typical male, except something happened partway through my prenatal development that temporarily shut down my testosterone production, so that the early stages of the process of building the permanent structure of my brain took place with little or no testosterone present (whereas the later stages took place with normal male levels of testosterone). I think that's what produced my brain, where the more evolutionarily ancient parts (controlling stuff like instinctive behaviour and body language) seem to be female, whereas the more evolutionarily advanced parts (that control things like language and conscious thought) are male.

You can see how XX vs XY has little if any bearing on whether you have a male or female brain, by looking at XY women (e.g. who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Swyer's Syndrome, two conditions that cause people who are genetically male to develop as female). They universally seem to be feminine women, not just in the way they look but in the way they behave too. Often they don't even find out about their condition until they're teenagers.

Here's some examples on Youtube:






As you can see, they're all normal looking women with typical female personalities and behaviour. It's not just their bodies that are female, but their brains are as well. That's despite all the cells in their bodies being genetically male (XY).

yeah I think that because in the case of androgen insensitivity syndrome they are immune to testosterone so are their brains so that's self explanatory then with swyer's syndrome they don't an sry gene to function as male. In my case I have indeed at least functioning sry gene proteins etc... The thing is most of my genome is xx and the rest is xy 9% or so. My body isn't immune to testosterone it just has a very little of what it's working with generally speaking. But I do produce a lot of testosterone for a female

Quote from: HughE on January 15, 2018, 04:05:03 PM
Whether the cells within it are XX or XY cells doesn't appear to have any bearing on the sex of your brain. That depends on whether there were low or high levels of androgens present when it was forming.

I started out thinking I must have XX/XY chimerism because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I got to find out more about how the biology of sexual development works, the conclusion I eventually reached is that my genes are ordinary XY genes, and I would have been a completely typical male, except something happened partway through my prenatal development that temporarily shut down my testosterone production, so that the early stages of the process of building the permanent structure of my brain took place with little or no testosterone present (whereas the later stages took place with normal male levels of testosterone). I think that's what produced my brain, where the more evolutionarily ancient parts (controlling stuff like instinctive behaviour and body language) seem to be female, whereas the more evolutionarily advanced parts (that control things like language and conscious thought) are male.

You can see how XX vs XY has little if any bearing on whether you have a male or female brain, by looking at XY women (e.g. who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Swyer's Syndrome, two conditions that cause people who are genetically male to develop as female). They universally seem to be feminine women, not just in the way they look but in the way they behave too. Often they don't even find out about their condition until they're teenagers.

Here's some examples on Youtube:






As you can see, they're all normal looking women with typical female personalities and behaviour. It's not just their bodies that are female, but their brains are as well. That's despite all the cells in their bodies being genetically male (XY).