Quote from: MissMonique on March 16, 2018, 07:21:11 AM
I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

I saw this post coming a mile away....
Anyone ready to start supporting people again? 
You cannot correct people until you start supporting them; they simply will not hear you.

Quote from: ainsley on March 16, 2018, 08:09:45 AM
I saw this post coming a mile away....
Anyone ready to start supporting people again? 
You cannot correct people until you start supporting them; they simply will not hear you.

My idea of supporting people is to guide them in how to respectfully interact with the world. I put less priority on commending tantrums blaming others for self image issues.

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 06:56:32 PM
Yes, my description on here and use of language was perhaps a little unflattering.  However, I am saying it here, about someone you'll never identify from my description.  I am saying it to ask for your advice about myself rather than to pass a comment about a nameless, anonymous third party.  The point of my comment was that this person looked like the sum of my worst nightmares about myself.  I caught a moment of eye contact and felt such internal pain in her.  It looked like she knew she had ended up in a bad place and had no way back to anywhere else. 

So, yes, unsuccessful based on their own relative experience.  Perhaps I was reading a lot into that shared moment, but the point was the fear it stoked in me.

I gave her a smile and a nod, as if to say, I see you sister. 

Don't for one second read into that some idea that I am unaccepting and judgmental.  That is judgmental of you to do that to me.  I can feel someone's pain.  I can share in it.  And in reality, a lot of the time people feel that they have to "play along with us as we dress up as women".  I had this from a nurse that came to my home to do bloodwork, I had it in the hairdresser's, I get it everywhere and it is rare to be accepted in a way that reflects how I feel and If I see that in someone else, but amplified to an extreme, then I am not judging them, I am sympathising and fearful for my own future.

To pretend that they are successfully transitioned, that their interior and exterior match to a level they are happy with and that the world takes them seriously and I should just be nice about it all and only say lovely things does no one any favours about improving how we deal with issues, support one another, lobby for change, get access to better resources and find ways to support people who find themselves in a place like that.

Or we could just pretend... lah de dah...  everything is flowers and rainbows.

I understand where you're coming from, I don't think you need to explain yourself any further .

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 06:15:38 AM
Jesus, Monique, you say how nice it was to be in a non-judgmental place, and  then you judge the hell out of someone?

This is exactly what you did Devlyn. We should correct someone through the example, not through scolding and judging.

To the members who share the same feelings as the OP.  I had the same fears when starting out.  Transition was a giant step into the unknown.  I needed a certain amount of faith/hope that things would work out.  I've also had to adjust my expectations a long the way.

For those happy who are comfortable being visibly trans, I am happy for you.  But that doesn't work for me.  It feels crappy to get misgendered and to know that people are just humoring me with my fantasy.  I guess I'm just saying it can be hard for those of us who just don't "see" it.

Quote from: MissMonique on March 16, 2018, 07:21:11 AM
I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

I was on your side until you started bad mouthing our country!

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on March 15, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

I agree, this should never be a place where we attack.  Words and sentence structure are tricky and sometimes hard to put together with your true meaning.  Trying to understand the true meaning of someone else's thoughts can be tricky too.  There are rules at Susan's that are there to protect each and everyone.  Let's step back, take a deep breath, and relax and stop with the attacks.

I think this whole conversation highlights one of perhaps the biggest divides among us all.

There are those who have the need/confidence/determination to go out into the world and regardless of their appearance are happy to live their lives; I'd put myself broadly in this camp.

And those for whom appearance and a more holistic acceptance out in public are a higher priority. Perhaps the OP is in this group at this point in time?

I do not consider either of these groups superior, they simply reflect lived experiences, personalities, life priorities, the cultures and societies they live in.

Respect for each other and empathy for these different views can help us support each other (why we're here?), while we keep our language respectful and inclusive. X

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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on March 15, 2018, 02:18:21 PM
Thinking about that kinda made me feel sad. As if people would be "playing along" with me, not really accepting me as female.

I don't think it's a matter of "acceptance."  Like, those who "play along" are doing exactly what we ask, gendering us per our narratives rather than our bodies.  These people are kind.  They are accepting.  They are also consciously overriding the gender assignment they already made, automatically and subconsciously, based on their initial perceptions of our embodiment. 

In my experience, there are only three kinds of people who will actually believe you're female.  First and foremost, those who assign you "female" upon meeting you, without disclosure of a trans narrative.  Second, most other transitioners, simply through personal experience (though there are some who lack enough empathy to make the leap).  Third, among cis people, are the "spiritual masters" who see past the flesh (or the narrative, if you're out despite having an embodiment that doesn't elicit misgendering) to the person inside. 

Those in the first group don't have a choice.

Quote from: Megan. on March 16, 2018, 10:18:10 AMI think this whole conversation highlights one of perhaps the biggest divides among us all.

I agree.

There are those who wish to transition from binary to binary, and there are those who want to occupy a place somewhere in between.  All of which is complicated by the fact that there are some in the first camp who, for reasons beyond their control, end up in the second camp.

There is no "right answer" as to which camp anyone "should" belong in. It really depends on what your personal truth is.

I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive. So, what happens, they get jumped on.  It doesn't seem like the responses are with the intention of pointing out how they might be more sensitive to others. Some of the responses seem more like an expression of anger. Why go there? For example, if, say, I catch my friend "Bob" calling someone a '->-bleeped-<-.' I might have my dander up, but my first attempt to respond might go better if I say, " Ah, hey Bob, that kind of comment hurts people's feelings." Not, "Hey Bob you're kind of a jerk for having that attitude." Listen, I'm not calling anybody out. I'm just thinking, before you let out your anger, try a little tact. The OP left, and it did not have to go that way. That is sad.
Monica

Ladies can't we all just get a long :O? I will put on the kettle and we can all talk about doggo memes!! It be better then world war 3 anyways haha

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 16, 2018, 09:27:48 AM
My idea of supporting people is to guide them in how to respectfully interact with the world. I put less priority on commending tantrums blaming others for self image issues.

IMO some here showed no understanding of where she was coming from, taking what she said in the worst possible way... and I have a hard time understanding how a TS could do that.

In this  society, for women in particular, how one looks has a HUGE effect on one's social and professional life WITHOUT "trans" entering into the picture... and with that added there is a lot of fear...

The fear of winding up easily 'readable' is something that stopped many of us from dealing with being TS until we had no choice if we wanted to stay functional. Is there any TS who has never had such fears?

If there are I sure don't understand them!!!

- Karen

When a person realizes they are gender dysphoric, it's necessary to take whatever steps are possible to alleviate the pain in their life to find mental peace.  The steps we need to take are different for each of us.  For some, the only "successful" treatment is to integrate into society, and be accepted as a natal woman by most, if not all, people.  Others find happiness without going that far.  Some need to align their physical bodies as closely as possible with their gender identities.   Others are happy with the bodies they were born with.  For some it's important that their appearance reflect either masculinity or femininity.  For other's androgyny is preferred. 

The point is, if we wish to escape the curse of gender dysphoria, we need to understand what is necessary to accomplish it.  Often the path to that end is all but impossible for various reasons.  If being able to pass convincingly as a woman is necessary to alleviate GD, but for one reason or another that goal is unreachable, it can feel like a dagger thrust into the heart.  From that standpoint, an "unsuccessful" transition can be more painful than the original dysphoria.  The fear of being trapped by circumstances can certainly be frightening.

But early on, we don't always see where a transition path will take us.  We don't see all possible routes to achieving some measure of happiness.  This is where help from those of us who've gone before can be of great help to one just starting out. 

A "successful" transition from the OP's standpoint clearly entails passability, not for others, necessarily, but for herself, and she has every right to her feelings.  There may be very real reasons for her to believe that passing will never be possible, and if that's really true, it's not realistic to expect someone to simply dismiss those feelings because they don't agree with non-binary gender ideals.

My advice to the OP, although too late in coming, is to learn as much as possible about how others have achieved passability.  I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD. 

If you are one of those who are convinced you will never pass, and are convinced you will be miserable being misgendered and perceived as a man even if people treat you respectfully, you might be better off not transitioning to full-time life as a woman.  But, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion too fast.  The goal is to find mental peace and personal happiness to the greatest extent possible.  There are no hard and fast rules on how to do that.

Quote from: Clara Kay on March 16, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD. 

I have a bit of a different perspective on that.  Granted, I've only been presenting for a few months as myself, and I've had many trans sisters tell me I'll be reasonably passible over time, that things will get better for me, etc.  But I can't live my life on the hope that they may be right. But maybe this is as passible as I'll ever get. I'm still going to be myself - a binary woman. A binary woman who will never be 100% passible even if she gets more passible over time.

I hate getting misgendered. I think most of us do.

One of the stereotypes that I believe holds so many of us back is the idea that if some transwoman isn't passible, it's because she didn't try hard enough. Basically that we aren't "serious" about being trans if we don't pass, because if we were serious, we could pass.

I don't know what stress another woman is dealing with - it's perfectly possible that someone is spending every bit of effort possible and still not passing, even after doing that for years. When I see a woman who would love to just be able to blend in but can't because of the accidents of chromosomes, but who still finds ways to be true to herself, I know she gets a lot of garbage from the world who thinks she is lazy, not trying, and just playing at being trans. I know however she is strong as heck.

Quote from: HappyMoni on March 16, 2018, 06:27:41 PM
I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive. So, what happens, they get jumped on.  It doesn't seem like the responses are with the intention of pointing out how they might be more sensitive to others. Some of the responses seem more like an expression of anger. Why go there? For example, if, say, I catch my friend "Bob" calling someone a '->-bleeped-<-.' I might have my dander up, but my first attempt to respond might go better if I say, " Ah, hey Bob, that kind of comment hurts people's feelings." Not, "Hey Bob you're kind of a jerk for having that attitude." Listen, I'm not calling anybody out. I'm just thinking, before you let out your anger, try a little tact. The OP left, and it did not have to go that way. That is sad.
Monica

I am saddened also and have lost the trust I had in talking about my problems.

Clearly non passable trans people spark a reaction from some. It's not right or wrong it's just a process we go through. The end of the day the difference between a cis and trans person is that one group has agonized over their gender a ton more. Usually most of our belief systems, biases, prejudices are similar to our cis counterparts in whatever part of the world we come from.

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Quote from: Allison S on March 17, 2018, 12:48:02 AM
Clearly non passable trans people spark a reaction from some. It's not right or wrong it's just a process we go through. The end of the day the difference between a cis and trans person is that one group has agonized over their gender a ton more. Usually most of our belief systems, biases, prejudices are similar to our cis counterparts in whatever part of the world we come from.

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Well said Allison.

Quote from: Clara Kay
I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD.

Quote from: ToriJo on March 16, 2018, 11:15:11 PM

One of the stereotypes that I believe holds so many of us back is the idea that if some transwoman isn't passible, it's because she didn't try hard enough. Basically that we aren't "serious" about being trans if we don't pass, because if we were serious, we could pass.
....

When I see a woman who would love to just be able to blend in but can't because of the accidents of chromosomes, but who still finds ways to be true to herself, I know she gets a lot of garbage from the world who thinks she is lazy, not trying, and just playing at being trans. I know however she is strong as heck.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda?

Could I pass, most definitely. Now here's my dilemma:

Passing for me would entail wearing a wig which is completely unacceptable in my chosen profession of blowing glass. And I'm not in the least enamored of looking one way when I work and another the rest of the time.

Same goes for shaving, even if I took off my beard, I'd have to wear pancake makeup to reasonably cover shadow, again that's completely untenable working in front of 2000 degree furnaces, also while I know how to do that make-up quite well, it's not a look I love on myself.

And hair transplant / electrolysis aren't covered by my insurance and are in any case not even vaguely in the budget of this impoverished artist. Same goes for makeup and wigs, that stuff is far from cheap! :-(.

Below I'll touch on why it matters (and also doesn't)

Quote from: HappyMoni on March 16, 2018, 06:27:41 PM
I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive.
.....

Sure this thread isn't easy, however being judged by other trans people is way down on my list of concerns. The reality is that the world at large is going to often judge me far more harshly. So I'm glad we're talking about it (and agree, keeping things non-judgy is always for the better).

Last night I went to a Meetup-advertised lesbian & bi women's discussion group. I go to about 4 such events monthly, all of them have been running for 10-15 years, long before Meetup was a thing.

However I've been sitting in the wings of the local lesbian/bi community far longer, 20 years now. Hell, I sponsored a closed queer discussion group for over a year back in the day that was mostly lesbian/bi.

To be sure, entering women's spaces while not passing has some daunting elements. Well over half the times I enter the women's center where last night's discussion is held I get challenged at the door (I need to talk to them about that). There's a femme group that's nominally inclusive of trans women that won't admit me because I'm not passing.

However, once I'm in one of these spaces and especially as I continue showing up and talking and presenting emotionally as female, the participants get me, welcome me and recognize me as one of them.

And IMX, there are few places harder to gain acceptance than among queer women. We're a minority within a minority. My area, Boston/Cambridge has a huge LGBT profile and where there's a proportionally large number of gay bars, many of them are actively unwelcoming towards women. (Last night I finally learned of one venue on the far side of town that's women-centric. I'll be checking it out Sunday after my queer women's book group!)

Quote from: Bobbie Ann on March 17, 2018, 12:25:14 AM
I am saddened also and have lost the trust I had in talking about my problems.

Whenever you get two people together there is discord to some degree. Hell, I fight with myself sometimes. I hope you don't see the negative edge that sometimes erupts and get discouraged about seeking what you need to find your happiness. I have found this place to be very supportive and it has helped me tremendously. People here have something in common surely, but we have very different perspectives. Sometimes, in my opinion, we have to remind ourselves to disagree, but disagree respectfully. (I'm no exception to that.) We pay a price for disrespect and that is the trust you speak of Bobbie Ann.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. Back to my usual smart ass self.

Monica