Ok, if you're not going to actually back your statements up and are just going to go around in circles instead, I don't see a point in continuing this conversation.

There are quite a few studies that have been done on children with GD who later go onto transition. I think the data is harder to ascertain with adults, but a credible, peer reviewed, one is below:

https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(13)00187-1/fulltext

and a discussion of the results here:
https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(13)00185-8/fulltext#

In the study, 127 children under 12 who had been referred to MH with GD were followed up in adolescence.Of the whole cohort, 47 of them went on to transition from their assigned birth gender.  The remaining 80 remained in their birth gender. The study and discussion go into the various reasons and factors. But in children with intense GD there is a 63% desistance according to this study.

Quote from: SoupSarah on September 15, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
There are quite a few studies that have been done on children with GD who later go onto transition. I think the data is harder to ascertain with adults, but a credible, peer reviewed, one is below:

https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(13)00187-1/fulltext

and a discussion of the results here:
https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(13)00185-8/fulltext#

In the study, 127 children under 12 who had been referred to MH with GD were followed up in adolescence.Of the whole cohort, 47 of them went on to transition from their assigned birth gender.  The remaining 80 remained in their birth gender. The study and discussion go into the various reasons and factors. But in children with intense GD there is a 63% desistance according to this study.

Not exactly.

They found a correlation between the intensity of gender dysphoria and the persistence of it.

This is basically a validation of the older "persistence, consistence, insistence" test used for childhood gender dysphoria.

Gender questioning behavior is often tagged as potential gender dysphoria.  Combining gender questioning and dysphoria as childhood gender dysphoria produces the artificially high desistence rates for children. 

Quote
Objective

To examine the factors associated with the persistence of childhood gender dysphoria (GD), and to assess the feelings of GD, body image, and sexual orientation in adolescence.

Method

The sample consisted of 127 adolescents (79 boys, 48 girls), who were referred for GD in childhood (<12 years of age) and followed up in adolescence. We examined childhood differences among persisters and desisters in demographics, psychological functioning, quality of peer relations and childhood GD, and adolescent reports of GD, body image, and sexual orientation. We examined contributions of childhood factors on the probability of persistence of GD into adolescence.

Results

We found a link between the intensity of GD in childhood and persistence of GD, as well as a higher probability of persistence among natal girls. Psychological functioning and the quality of peer relations did not predict the persistence of childhood GD. Formerly nonsignificant (age at childhood assessment) and unstudied factors (a cognitive and/or affective cross-gender identification and a social role transition) were associated with the persistence of childhood GD, and varied among natal boys and girls.

Conclusion

Intensity of early GD appears to be an important predictor of persistence of GD. Clinical recommendations for the support of children with GD may need to be developed independently for natal boys and for girls, as the presentation of boys and girls with GD is different, and different factors are predictive for the persistence of GD.

Whilst I respect your input, I would question your dismissive "Not exactly".

I did choose this study specifically because the cohort of children was pulled from a specialist gender clinic in Amsterdam. The subjects in question had been referred to the clinic due to Gender dysphoria by teams in their locality. In fact the authors actually state that due to the supportive climate in Amsterdam of GNC youth their sample could be biased with a population with more acute GD, because milder cases would not be referred.
Of course all patients attending the clinic would be gender questioning, you cannot remove them from the statistics because they later do not transition? You would then only end up with a 100% transition rate and the study be pointless. It also casts doubt on the poor individuals who have GD and choose not to transition as to the degree of suffering they are going through - It is possible to have GD and not be trans, the GD is still just as bad. I speak from experience.

The question running in the post is "Is there any scientific evidence for the stated 33% of people who start transitioning and later stop " as quoted by virginia's psychiatrist - Whilst I am aware the study i listed was focused on finding correlations with intensity of GD, It does also highlight that a large proportion of those cases entering the specialist clinic for whatever reason, decide not to transition. I am also inherently  aware that the question on this thread is about the general population and this is study specifically looks at pre-adolescents with all of the factors associated with that cohort. However it seems figures for any adult studies are difficult to ascertain. It at least gives some unbiased research that has been asked for by other respondents to this thread.

I appreciate the source, I will certainly read it and consider it.

Thank you for doing the hard legwork to find this reference, Soup Sarah.
My psychologist has worked with the transgender community and people with eating and trauma related dissociative disorders for 40 years, and has been treating me for over 7. I have long since stopped asking her for "references" about the things she tells me.

Quote from: SoupSarah on September 14, 2018, 07:20:40 PM
@septagonscars - You write as a beautiful and intelligent human being. You made choices in your life that, for you at the time, were right. They now turn out to be not ideal but I really think you are being overly tough on yourself and beating yourself up a little too much (a common trait with dissociatives BTW). Try not to dwell on the past too much and celebrate the amazing person you are now and your future. Very few humans get to live a life like you have.(and being multiple is amazing and beyond the scope of singles understanding). xx

Take care
Sarah x

Thank you. I know I'm being hard on myself. But I think the main reason for that is because despite having so much understanding of my situation and taking responsibility for it, I too sometimes deflect and throw blame around cause the pain in me is just too much for me to handle sometimes and I just want for it to be someone else fault that I could direct my anger and pain towards. So then I need to kinda snap myself back to reality again, and I probably do that a bit too hard. I can't really do things gently or just a bit. I'm a person of extremes, so it's always either or, meaning either being too hard on myself or being too soft on myself. But I try to not do that too often or too much.

I'm actually glad that very few people live the kind of life I do. No one deserves this, and no one should have to suffer this kind of pain. I'm finding roads to my future by dwelling on my past, so I am actually moving forward while glancing back. I use my past as kind of a road map for where to go next. And the dwelling also helps me better understand myself, as well as better accepting and becoming okay with my past. It's kind of like my own personal exposure therapy.

I think there are def good things about being multiple, like it can be a great comfort and support. At least now that my one alter is not abusive anymore. But I'd probably not go as far as calling my situation with that amazing However, I would not actually want to not have an alter now, or to integrate. But likely because I've come very far with her now and found/created a beautiful friendship that I don't wanna lose. And because I'm so used to not having my mind to myself xD. I mean, it's positive for me now, but it does still have its downsides.

But anyhow, your words are very kind

So people who have experienced trauma are then more likely to transition genders than those who haven't? I'm confused about this... Or is it that being another gender is one symptom of DID?


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Quote from: Allison S on September 16, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
So people who have experienced trauma are then more likely to transition genders than those who haven't? I'm confused about this... Or is it that being another gender is one symptom of DID?

Transgender people share many of the symptoms commonly experienced by cisgender men who were sexually abused as children. Sexual fantasies about becoming a woman, the need to dress as woman, extreme guilt related to masturbation, gender confusion, sexual confusion, and/or dysphoria about their genitals. One in six men are sexually abused, so it is much more likely a person may be experiencing these symptoms as a result of their sexual abuse rather than being transgender (16% versus 0.6%.) References are cited throughout this post.

It is very common for people with DID to have different gender alters in their systems. Male alters give female trauma victims the strength they do not believe themselves to possess as women. Female alters give men a way to justify in their minds the horror of having been molested and a way to resolve the resulting sexual confusion. Alters have nothing to do with gender. They are a coping mechanism for containing the feelings and memories of trauma.

Quote from: Allison S on September 16, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
So people who have experienced trauma are then more likely to transition genders than those who haven't? I'm confused about this... Or is it that being another gender is one symptom of DID?

Ahh - I see virginia beat me to the post - Oh well, I send this up anyway it might help?

It is confusing quite a lot, I think the thread has lost a little direction. But basically:
DID is a trauma based psychology sometimes called multiple personality syndrome. It is not at all like anything depicted on TV or the movies but does involve the individual experiencing parts of themselves that are different in terms of personality, gender, sexuality and/or mannerisms. It is so complex that usually any one part does not understand they are just a part, and so when other personalities (or alters) are around they can change how a person thinks. Sometimes this "take over" is complete and only the current part is out and running the show, other times there is a blend or seep through of thoughts and consciousnesses. So an individual with a male and a female alter can mistakenly think they are transgender. Every "symptom" of being transgender is present, over-ridingly gender dysphoria. Sometimes alters can take over for years at a time, sometimes it is only minutes and then sometimes it can be a mix or other complex situations. The point is it is hard for the individual to understand as the different parts have different levels of consciousness of what is going on.
What DID is not is in any way defining a person as transgender. Transgender is defined differently AND is completely different. For a start it is not a mental illness, it is a state of being.
DID is usually caused by some severe trauma before the age of about 8 years old. Usually it is CSA (about 95%). The sufferer of DID is also usually totally unaware of this trauma as this is what DID is all about, locking atrocious memories away from the main consciousness so it can function as normal. So it is not as simple as saying, I feel I should be the opposite gender to my body and I had no trauma as a kid so I must be transgender. For that is what nearly all DID people would conclude. Only by exploring in therapy, with a skilled therapist would it actually be able to identify DID.
So, here on in, is the dilemma. While it is great that there are less and less barriers and more acceptance to people transitioning, there are a few of us (e.g. SeptagonScars, Virginia and me) whom it is actually detrimental, and detrimental in a potentially devastating way.
I am in the UK, and despite overwhelming evidence of early childhood trauma a senior psychiatrist in the NHS diagnosed me as "transsexual in denial" and suggested I transition. A part of me (actually me typing this!) really, really wants to do this. I have debilitating GD and a complete loathing for my body. Left to my own devices I would readily agree with that diagnosis and be on the road to transitioning. Luckily, whilst posting on susans last year Virginia spotted my post and made a suggestion about what I had written. Something I had not considered, that I was mentally ill. I came here, to susans for help and by gods grace Virginia found me and saved my life.
That is why this little thread, this small piece of the amazing support work that susans.org does is so important.

I hope that clears it up a little? If not ask questions :-)

Thank you both, Virginia and SoupSarah. I have a lot to think about...
Did you mean that CSA can manifest solely as gender dysphoria or someone's extreme discomfort with their gender assigned at birth?
I just think it's incredible what our minds can do to protect ourselves. In a way, and I know I'm making assumptions, but that can point to being transgender as evolutionary. For some, it's (very sadly) triggered by horrible acts. And for others it's innate...

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Its probably a lot more specific than just CSA, it also thought that only a certain "type" of mind can dissociate to such an extent and you need to be in a situation where parental support is not conducive to being able to remedy the trauma as it happens. It is almost like a roadmap, if someone is DID.

I am a woman. I think, feel and act as a woman. Everything about me is female except my body. I look in the mirror and hate my beard, genitals and lack of chest. Everything actually about my body is wrong because it is male. Any test to determine if I should transition would give a resounding yes, full transition with SRS. BUT I am not transgender and that is tough and difficult to live with. So, not just CSA is needed and the results for a part can be very simmilar to an innate transgendered individual.

The evolutionary thing is a good angle. DID is a coping mechanism designed to allow a person to function despite trauma early in their lives that they could not fight or flee from. If a sabre-toothed tiger attacked and killed your entire family, (and the other parts of DID, brain, upbringing were true) you would not remember them being slaughtered. You however would probably not have another gendered alter, the trauma caused by a violent action, you could have a part that would fight a tiger, another tiger? or a strong, butch man. Something to protect you.
In my case I was abused by a homosexual peadophile between 2 and 4/5 years old. I was created as a female, because it would not of happened to me. He liked little boys, not little girls. So it is not an automatic thing, just most trauma suffered in the western world by children is sexual by nature.

Sorry if I'm changing the point of the topic. I just get a thought and run with it sometimes... I get a bit carried away.
And by evolutionary, I think I meant biological.
I wonder, since the man that violated you is known to be "gay" or only interested in young boys... Has this deterred you from a relationship or intimacy with a man?
I understand if this is intrusive to ask. I'm just trying to understand better.
I'm pretty sure I'm transgender... I also know I struggled with trauma, though non sexual, I don't think...
I really think this is a topic we need to talk about more in society. And I really wish we do.

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Allison S - Thankyou for being so interested. Your educated responses and questions are more than welcome and I am happy to talk about it.
Virginia - Sorry for the slight hijack, but please feel free to jump in and correct me, I will always defer to your greater knowledge of the subject :-)

So first of I just want to make clear that being transsexual is an innate state of being. Your born with it. DID is a trauma created mental issue. If I had not gone through the type of childhood I did, I would not be dealing with this now. I am the female part of our system and can identify and understand the issues someone who is transgender goes through. In my mind I have always been female, innately. As I share a body, I have to be considerate to the other parts. A bit like a flat share :-) That said, I can pass fairly well as female if I want to as my mannerisms, speech patterns and thoughts are very feminine.

Sex is a difficult subject to talk about. My male part is heterosexual and married. They have difficulty forming relationships and tend not to favour the company of men. That could be due to the early trauma, but it is not clear yet. I believed that I was lesbian tending bisexual. But I now understand that it is simply with a male body I could not have a relationship with a man. I could not engage in gay sex if you get my drift. Probably due to the trauma as well, who knows. But, my dreams whilst never sexual, have been about getting married to a man. In those dreams, I have the correct body. The idea of therapy is to try and integrate all the parts into one functioning personality. That is a very long way off for me (and as septagonscars noted above may not be the desired outcome for us?). If we do integrate then I suspect that this duality of gender and sexuality will settle on a single path. Where that will be is unknown, but if I am honest it would probably be more in line with my other part, male and heterosexual. But no-one actually has any idea.
Exploring your gender with a trained and knowledgeable therapist is the best way to understand your feelings and vitally important for anyone embarking on transition. 

Quote from: SoupSarah on September 17, 2018, 09:45:28 AM

Exploring your gender with a trained and knowledgeable therapist is the best way to understand your feelings and vitally important for anyone embarking on transition.

Thank you. I think that's key here. I see it like a puzzle in a way...

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You are very welcome, AllisonS. SoupSarah and I are both passionate about sharing our experience to help anyone exploring their gender.

Quote from: Allison S on September 16, 2018, 09:28:06 PMDid you mean that CSA can manifest solely as gender dysphoria or someone's extreme discomfort with their gender assigned at birth?
I just think it's incredible what our minds can do to protect ourselves. In a way, and I know I'm making assumptions, but that can point to being transgender as evolutionary. For some, it's (very sadly) triggered by horrible acts. And for others it's innate...

I am a successful graduate level engineer. Had I not experienced it for myself, I would be in total disbelief that my mind could hide the horrible things that happened to me so completely I had ABSOLUTELY NO AWARENESS OF THE EVENTS.

I am not sure I can concur with the idea that this in any way can point to being transgender as evolutionary or triggered by horrible acts. The things I describe are normal to CSA. ->-bleeped-<- is an innate state of being, not any sort of triggered disorder or psychological response by trauma. However similar Gender Dysphoria may appear to the symptoms of someone who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, the underlying causes of the two are completely different.

It takes a very specific set of circumstances for a person with a dissociative mind to develop separate identities as a result of childhood trauma (sexual or psychological), But Childhood Sexual Abuse CAN Manifest As "Gender Dysphoria." Cisgender men who are survivors of CSA experience sexual fantasies about becoming a woman, the need to dress as woman, extreme guilt related to masturbation, gender confusion, sexual confusion, and/or dysphoria about their genitals. There is an excellent discussion group on the Male Survivor website at: http://www.discussion.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

This complicates diagnosis for a person who is dissociative and developed DID with opposite  gender alters. Even more so for a transgender person who experienced CSA or has Dissociative Identity Disorder. I refer you to my female alter, Flytrap's intro post which has become the "home" for forum members with dissociative conditions who need to express themself as another gender at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,218553.msg1934547.html#msg1934547

Quote from: Allison S on September 17, 2018, 08:52:32 AM
I wonder, since the man that violated you is known to be "gay" or only interested in young boys... Has this deterred you from a relationship or intimacy with a man?

In my case I was repeatedly molested by my Mother through grade school and raped by a 13-year-old cousin when I was 6. Sexual abuse runs on my Mother's side so my perpetrator was likely abused by his Father. My experience left me incapable of intimacy with anyone.

Sex between young boys is about exploration and, like men in prison, availability of a partner to fill their needs, not being gay. It's healthy and normal cisgender activity between consenting partners.  An adolescent forcing himself on a six-year-old is a devastating violation. A child's mind is not developed to handle the psychological overload; orgasm literally explodes their mind.

I don't think it's possible for anyone with a single identity to comprehend how amazingly effective dissociation is as a coping mechanism. Effects of trauma, like deterring intimacy, are minimized for the Primary alter/Apparently Normal Part. They can often go on to live a normal life, free of the psychotic disorders a person who was not dissociative might experience and aloof to the devastating effects of the trauma contained in their alters.

My female alter, Flytrap, is not capable of responding to a thread like this the way SeptagionScar or SoupSarah can. Partly because Flytrap is only 13 and has difficulty putting her thoughts on paper. But more importantly because it threatens the self-delusion my mind uses to maintain that part of Self as a separate person. You would notice a glaring difference in each of our writing styles; my posts are factual and formal; Flytrap talks about feelings in simple sentences.

I am the Primary Alter of my System, enjoy being with and relate well to other men; not so much with women, excepting my wife. My fragment alter is our System Protector, so I tend to be extremely Alpha male. Flytrap relates equally well to women and men. She is sterotypical woman because that isthe role she was created to fill in our System. In casual relationships we both appear very well adjusted, outgoing, caring and personable. That my System works so well in simulating a "normal" person is why I was able to live a happy life for 48 years and it has survived with very little change for nearly 60.

Flytrap is asexual, Little Guy is too young to be concern himself with sex, and my Protector and Inner Self Helper have no gender or sexual orientation. In my mind's elegant solution to appear normal, I am heterosexual,  But I have NEVER been able to bring myself to have sexual intercourse. And it tears my wife of 25 years heart out that I am just not capable of the trust an intimacy most people  who are married take for granted.

I'm sorry to hear about your discomfort, Virginia. I mean if that upsets you...since you are married. It's understandable.
I think what you mention about sexual fantasies about being a woman and wanting to dress as a woman are just two points (of many) I haven't considered before... I think crossdressing is profound... I know what it does as a transgender person, to begin to help affirm my identity... I can only imagine what it does for a crossdresser. Sorry this is really going off topic now, but it saddens me that people are ashamed to crossdress. I really wish we would see it daily.

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Thank you AllisonS. I am far enough along in recovery that I have faced the majority of the demons from my past. My struggle now it with the scars they left behind and their affect on my relationship with my wife. Like SeptagonScars and SoupSarah, my therapists no longer see fusion as an option for my System. After nearly 60 years, the five of us learning to work together seems to be as far as my mind is capable of healing.

Quote from: Allison S on September 17, 2018, 03:32:52 PM
wanting to dress as a woman are just two points (of many) I haven't considered before... I think crossdressing is profound... I know what it does as a transgender person, to begin to help affirm my identity... I can only imagine what it does for a crossdresser.

This brings up an important difference between DID and ->-bleeped-<-. My female alter's gender is NOT an intrinsic part of Self. Flytrap's mannerisms, the way she expresses herself with clothes, makeup and grooming are all part of an elaborate illusion my mind uses to maintain that compartment it created to protect me from the feelings and memories of trauma. Flytrap likes to wear her clothes, but they are not essential to her identity or in anyway affirming of her femaleness. She is as confident and comfortable in who she is whether she is wearing my clothes or hers.

What remains critical for my System at this point in my recovery is the affirmation Flytrap gets that she IS a woman when she is out and about living her life. This illusion of her femininity is vital for maintaining my mind's delusion that she is a separate person. But as I progress in therapy, more and more Flytrap enjoys people seeing her as a guy, the freedom to do things outside of the confines of her femininity, and the break from her self maintenance routine and all the extras that come with looking pretty. And as SeptagonScars has come to see, Flytrap can envision a day she no longer needs anyone's acceptance of her as a girl. And will be able to fully express the parts of Self, feelings and memories she contains as our birth gender of male.