Quote from: Complete on February 11, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
I agree. Understand Dawn, l get a lot of this exclusionary treatment too, soley because l do not fit the "approved" definition or description of trans, (which is fine with me.) I never have identified as trans.

What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal  I think to put a progress maker on a continuous process, and declare the process as being real or not at this certain point, is absolutely wrong.

Am I trans?  after all, I was kind of a female at birth, and most of  my biology seems to be female, and now I am reverting back to he point at which I was at  birth. Would that meet the trans measurement?
I consider myself to be a trans woman!

Quote from: Dietlind on February 11, 2019, 11:21:57 PM
What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal  I think to put a progress maker on a continuous process, and declare the process as being real or not at this certain point, is absolutely wrong.

Am I trans?  after all, I was kind of a female at birth, and most of my biology seems to be female, and now I am reverting back to he point at which I was at birth. Would that meet the trans measurement?
I consider myself to be a trans woman!

I thought that I knew what trans was. Now I question the definition that I learned. Are definitions fluid? I thought not but apparently, they change or my understanding changes.

I asked this question some time ago, "If a transwoman is postoperative and passes 100%, is she still trans or just a woman?" Some said that she was always trans and others said that at that point she is just female. I believe that only one person said that she started as a woman and ended as a woman.

There are so many ways to judge and label people so that they either fit into the box or not. People in my experience focus on how someone does not fit in versus how they do fit in.

There are a few local gay groups where I live. These are just examples that make sense to me. There is the bear group. I will not attend this because I am not a bear. There is also a leather group. I'm not really into the leather thing so I do not attend that one. As the old saying goes, "Birds of a feather flock together."

I will ask another question if anyone wants to answer it. "If someone presents most of the time, but in some situations they do not, would not a group that presents all of the time be able to assist that other person with the next step? Where should the line be drawn?"

I hope that these people do not ask for help because they certainly do not give it. Maybe I am just too inclusive and nieve. Gee I hope not.

Quote from: MaryT on February 11, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
There is obviously a section of the trans population (even a few members of Susan's Place but I certainly don't include you, Jill) that regards itself as innately different even from the majority of expressedly trans people, especially those who have either not transitioned or transitioned later in life.  In Susan's Place, they usually avoid violating the TOS by implying not exactly that they are more female or more trans but rather that there is something else that makes them somehow innately different.

I'm sure I fall into the category of those you were talking about as far as this community goes but when others see you as different because the trans aspects of your life including your attitudes, opinions and experiences are different and not only from the majority but literally from everyone and this is nothing you can change or do anything about, believe me that not being enough whatever or too much of something else to be part of the clique works both ways.

This doesn't make me more anything or anything less than anyone else or special but we are all very much tribal creatures that seek commonality and community with those that are like us be that in realms of politics, attitudes, life experience, sexuality or shared interests etc. Wanting a place to fit in is pretty much basic human nature so if you don't fall within the accepted parameters or don't fit the criteria of a specialized social group, especially one where identity and experience are the common binding denominator, not finding that place when you are an outlier in some way isn't that hard to understand even though this realization might be difficult or painful.

Dawn, it's unfortunate the way you were treated but don't give up or lose hope. Although supposedly under a broad nebulous transgender umbrella, we simply are not some monolithic entity where everyone is the same regardless of what we've been lead to believe or how much we'd like that to be true but that doesn't mean there's not a niche somewhere for everyone. You will find your tribe and if not, start your own. Not to be discouraging or anything but I've never found a place among trans people and I've come to accept that I'll always be an outsider in that sphere. Consider also that some of us are from a time before groups, any sort of community, organizations or even a way to meet other trans people and in my case, I was just a kid and none of these resources were even available so at least these opportunities exist in today's world even if it takes a few tries to find the ones that work for you.

QuoteEveryone is different of course but I personally think that when, and how completely, trans people transition is determined more by environment than biology.

Personally, I think differently but that's not important.

Quote from: Lisa_K on February 12, 2019, 08:09:44 AM

I we all are the same because we make choices to the best of our abilities and the hand we're dealt.  A lot of people argue from what I've read about the label "transgender" of "transexual".  I don't think as a community we really understand the experience ourselves... We just know gender dysphoria and the things we (kinda) can do about it.  To me that's not really enough right now because I still want the bigger meaning. I laugh about gender yet here I am conflicted and sexually very repressed.

You have to realize that you speak from a privileged life and what we as a community should strive for every transgender person.  And yes, I know you had your struggles and they're very real.  I think we just need to understand that bottom line, being transgender is a major commonality we all share. This group was wrong for turning away Dawn.

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I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.

Again, l have to agree. Personally, l have no the friends who happen to be, or identify as trans. In fact, l have actually met very few. Occasionally l might see someone in an obvious stage of transition, but to be perfectly honest l only know of two or three people who have actually managed to cross seamlessly into what you all call "cis" society. I realize of course, that this is a reflection of the the time and conditions during which l was forced to take those steps which made it possible for me to survive.
[What exactly is trans, when does it start, and what is the end goal?
This is the question, isn't I?

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.

You don't, not really. I have two very close trans friends that I met here long ago. We are nothing alike in most ways but we get along very well and I don't want to give them up. I have another friend that I met more recently that is closer to where I live and we may end up as close. The fact that they are trans has nothing to do with our continuing friendship though the commonality may have been the thing got us together in the first place. I have a few very close cis girlfriends and my best friend for the majority my life is a cis woman. It seems normal to seek out those that are like us as friends.

I don't think that it is necessary to have trans friends, here we are though. I don't think it is possible for cis gender people to understand some of we have gone through and think it is a good thing to have that connection in some way. It is not necessary, I have good cis girlfriends and my boyfriend, I am glad that I have my trans friends though.

Hi, you are better off not being in a group that does not want you there.

There were two groups I use to go to and everyone was welcome. I stopped going because I have outgrown the groups. I needed those two groups at one time and I found friendship and acceptance there.

I hope you are not discouraged and keep looking to find accepting groups that provide friendship.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 12, 2019, 01:53:43 PM
I know this might sound like a stupid question but why do you have to have transgender friends? I mean you might find out that the only single thing you have in common is being transgender and honestly that's not much foundation for a friendship. Cultivate other friends that you connect with, push your own boundaries, operate outside your own comfort zone. It's the only way to learn to get comfortable in your own skin.

Dawn didn't mention that she applied because she was specifically looking for trans friends (although she obviously has them on Susan's Place).  She thought that she was applying to join a group, which usually implies people meeting to give each other support and/or advice.

I wrote this more than a day ago and wasn't going to post it but I've been motivated.

Quote from: Allison S on February 12, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
I we all are the same because we make choices to the best of our abilities and the hand we're dealt.  A lot of people argue from what I've read about the label "transgender" of "transexual".  I don't think as a community we really understand the experience ourselves... We just know gender dysphoria and the things we (kinda) can do about it.  To me that's not really enough right now because I still want the bigger meaning. I laugh about gender yet here I am conflicted and sexually very repressed.

I have a bad habit of going off topic so I will not elaborate because when I do share more of my opinion about this it mistakenly gets perceived as divisive and that I'm suggesting there is some sort of hierarchy when that is not the case at all and it makes people get defensive about it so I'll simply say I honestly don't believe that we are all the same and leave it at that. Besides, I wouldn't want to be accused of skirting the TOS. [/s]

QuoteYou have to realize that you speak from a privileged life...

I do get that when I concede that being a trans child was some sort of privilege. I understand what you're saying though, I'm not a complete jerk but you all don't seem to understand how my perceptions and opinions have been shaped by this or why they might not align with the approved current transgender dogma that didn't even exist when I went through my "privileged" years. I find not even talking about this to be intellectually repressive and stifling but realize these are the limitations of my membership here.

QuoteThis group was wrong for turning away Dawn.

It was certainly rude and unnecessarily hurt her feelings. In that we agree.

____________________________________________________

<Removed by moderator>

I have written responses to other posters but will consider adding them at another time.

Dawn,

I agree with the person who commented that you may have just dodged a bullet.

It's hard to be rejected, and it's terrible that you felt the need to spill your life history to strangers in order to try to get them to accept you. But the fact that you were treated as you were is some indication that the group is more of a clique and that you're better off without them.

I am reminded of the stereotypical cliques of high school girls, and, later, women, who judge others on the basis of looks, income, husbands, etc., to decide who they will deign to treat as equals and include in their society. We all dodged that bullet; and I think we may well be better off for it.

Like you, I'm pretty isolated; I never see another trans woman. I'd like to, very much; but not at the cost they demanded you pay, or any like it.

Quote from: Lisa_K on February 14, 2019, 01:06:37 AM
I wrote this more than a day ago and wasn't going to post it but I've been motivated.

I have a bad habit of going off topic so I will not elaborate because when I do share more of my opinion about this it mistakenly gets perceived as divisive and that I'm suggesting there is some sort of hierarchy when that is not the case at all and it makes people get defensive about it so I'll simply say I honestly don't believe that we are all the same and leave it at that. Besides, I wouldn't want to be accused of skirting the TOS. [/s]

I do get that when I concede that being a trans child was some sort of privilege. I understand what you're saying though, I'm not a complete jerk but you all don't seem to understand how my perceptions and opinions have been shaped by this or why they might not align with the approved current transgender dogma that didn't even exist when I went through my "privileged" years. I find not even talking about this to be intellectually repressive and stifling but realize these are the limitations of my membership here.

It was certainly rude and unnecessarily hurt her feelings. In that we agree.

____________________________________________________

<Removed by moderator>

I have written responses to other posters but will consider adding them at another time.

I find it very sad and discouraging,  (not for me, or those like me who have for all practical purposes,  "lived or realized our dreams of becoming whole)...but for those who are still striving and struggling to attain that level of "privilege", which allows us to live rather normal, everyday lives by everyday standards -  that those of us who have made it, who have  no need for "support" or "community" or meeting "standards" are not able  to openly offer our experiences and what we have learned on our path, without fear of sanction.
I just wish I could share just a tiny bit of what l have learned.

Quote from: Complete on February 14, 2019, 09:17:14 PM

I said the word "privelege" and maybe you misunderstood.  We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying and I'll take what you wrote as you meaning well..
I know I'm priveleged myself and at the same time I can say that doesn't really help any other trans person but myself... Let's not delude ourselves, unless we're putting in time, energy and resources, all we're doing is spouting out words and arguments... I'm sure your transition stories, photos and opinions do help people, but we clearly are talking about different kinds of "help" for the community.

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QuoteHave you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?

I've had all those things done to me while presenting male... except replace 'dumb broad' with 'dumb northerner' and replace 'wearing a skirt' with 'wearing shorts'

But back to the O.P.  Are the whole group of that mind or just a few?   I love the group that I attend, one of the best things I've done... but there are times when someone can be a bit off with me. I let it go because most of the group are great. They know that I suffer from dysphoria and they know my intentions to transition but they never judge me for still presenting reasonably male. They're perhaps encouraging me at the moment to start expressing my feminine side but not pushing me or telling me that I have to do so.

I feel very sad that you are being excluded like this. I don't know where I would be if it wasn't for the support I get from my local group. In fact, it is one of the reasons why I am not on here as often as I was before.

Perhaps talk to someone else in the group about it and see if it is everyone's reaction. I am married, the group leader used to be married, and other members are married too or dating cis women. It seems a petty thing to be judging someone by. I wish you could've been in the UK and experienced my group... you would've been made more than welcome.

Or how about you start a group of your own? It is going to bother me that you are missing out like that.

love
Alice

Quote from: Allison S on February 15, 2019, 06:58:33 AM

I said the word "privelege" and maybe you misunderstood.  We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying and I'll take what you wrote as you meaning well..
I know I'm priveleged myself and at the same time I can say that doesn't really help any other trans person but myself... Let's not delude ourselves, unless we're putting in time, energy and resources, all we're doing is spouting out words and arguments... I'm sure your transition stories, photos and opinions do help people, but we clearly are talking about different kinds of "help" for the community.

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I understand the term privilege to refer  to something earned or awarded based on merit.
I do not agree that  we are "the same just at different points in our lives and transition".
I do not see myself as sharing in some purported "commonality" based on something you see as or call, "the transgender experience".
I am not trying to be rude, but honestly,  what many of you here talk about or describe in your daily lives, is just something that is totally foreign to me.
You are correct in assuming that l mean well. I have been reading abot and attempting to comment constructively about your experience for about ten years now, and frankly,  l have received mixed reviews which l understand because,  afterall, l really am not one of you, so l can certainly understand those feelings of rejection described by DawnODay.

Quote from: GingerVicki on February 12, 2019, 12:37:29 AM
I thought that I knew what trans was. Now I question the definition that I learned. Are definitions fluid? I thought not but apparently, they change or my understanding changes.

Labels are descriptive, not prescriptive; and they have their limits of usefulness.

I am female. Beyond that, labels may or may not apply. My therapist asked me recently if I were proud of being transgender; I told her, No, I'm not, I'm proud of being a woman. A woman is who I am; transgender is just where I'm from.

To tell you the truth, I'm trying to put the whole subject of being transgender behind me, as much as I can, and get on with the business of just living.

I can certainly relate to that statement by @Ann W

When I have to identify, I state that I am a woman.  If there is a need for more intimate details, I am lesbian, and demisexual.  I reached this point in my life by a more complex path than most, as a transgender person.

This is simply my identity, nobody elese's.  I do me.

You do you.

Quote from: Margarine on February 10, 2019, 11:25:52 PM
Dawn,
I am so very sorry this happened to you, for a group that is to be accepting they are pretty closed minded! I sent them a message a while ago and was rejected not for the reasons you were, but for being a bit right of center. I was told "Margaret, your reputation and attitude proceed you...." I responded to the "woman" in charge where do I mail my "trans card" back to. She did not respond. Have you tried the gender alliance meetings on Fridays and some Tuesdays in Tacoma at the Rainbow Center? I know Saturday morning T was great when Catharine was running it, now not so much, Susan and I went last week and it was a no show for leadership A few people showed up and we chatted. That might be an option for you to approach the Rainbow center about a group?

I am again so very sorry they treated you like that! I will say hi to all of them when they arrive in hell with me!

Take care,

Margaret

Margaret... Moby does a pretty good job. I've missed quite a few meetings lately because I was having problems with my health. I have learned so much these last  few years and the whole puzzle is starting to fit together. I wish there were as much to do as in Seattle.  I'm tired of going to the Harmon and the Mix is hit or miss as there has been some adverse reactions to our presence.  I would love to be able to pull everyone together and create a real support group. Nanci has been discussing some people she knows.

Thanks for all your supportive comments. I've spent my whole life on the fringe. Not fitting in with the dudes let alone the jocks. I had very severe acne and no Proactive. Not until I started shaving in earnest at about 26 did it start to go away. I didn't know how to handle friendships, romances, simple conversations, small talk. It's been a struggle but I am finally beginning to see the light. I'm not so much upset as i am confused.

Quote from: Complete on February 14, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
I just wish I could share just a tiny bit of what l have learned.

As the topic of this thread is cliques and as I mentioned earlier, tribalism, it's kind of ironic that those who decry such things are equally guilty of practicing them and don't even realize they're doing it too. You have to consider that we are archaic dinosaurs and much like the stereotypical teenager that is certain they know more and are smarter and wiser than their stupid parents, us old farts are just thought to be clueless and out of it and couldn't possibly have anything insightful to offer.  It's kind of funny if not ironic that most of those teenagers grow up and realize their elders weren't quite so dumb after all but usually not until they have their own kids that think they are  the idiots. You cannot give what is unasked for

Many if not most here will never have a life like yours or mine so we are the ones that are the outsiders with unwelcome ideas and thoughts that fall outside of the approved transgender narrative because they disrupt the sweet flow of confirmation bias. Complete, it makes me sad too. I am to the point of crawling back into the hole from whence I came because I really don't belong here as I'm just not trans enough to be a helpful member of the clique.

Quote from: Allison S on February 15, 2019, 06:58:33 AM
We all should be sharing our experiences and realize we're the same just at different points in our lives and transitions... I guess that goes without saying...

This does need saying and I'll say it again because I do not believe it is accurate to say we're all the same but just at different points in our lives and transitions. Every researcher from Hirschfeld to Benjamin and then some have observed these facts with those failing to acknowledge them simply in denial, uninformed or victims of coercion by the great transgender machine that promotes such dogma as gospel. There is absolutely nothing wrong about not being all the same. Granted, our disparate trajectories may temporarily intersect at some point and certainly in the name of political expediency we should stand in solidarity with one another to some degree because as a whole we do have common enemies but by no measure does that mean we are all the same "type" regardless of how heretical that may be to some.

There is utterly no reason these differences should be a problem except some have decided to assign a hierarchy to them out of ignorance, their own insecurities, lack of self understanding, to make themselves look better or because the happy rainbow coalition says they don't exist. Maybe only those that defined their own paradigms from a time before there was any trans community or movement can see or understand this or even want to?

I generally do not even attempt to offer advice or counsel because it's irrelevant to what people here are going through but I have shared opinions and stories of my past to give others a point of reference which I realize now is not only unhelpful but antagonistic.

Dawn (and Complete), I too empathize with your feelings of not belonging but as someone said earlier in this thread if being trans is the only thing you have in common with others, it's not very much to base a friendship on. When it's become something nearly fifty years removed from your life, that's even more true as evidenced by my lack of making much of any sort of connection here.

I think I just need to go on hiatus and keep quiet from now on and take up a new hobby or something? I have enough issues without trans drama being one of them so go I back into the privileged woodwork in 3-2-1 poof! My best to everyone with everything.