@Pema thank you. I have just started to read your story last week, and I have found you have spoken some very wise words as well. I look to you and many others on here as mentors and guides to help me through the darkness and into the light.

Thank you pema and everyone else.

Robby, what you've just written about the conversations you and your wife had is yet more amazing stuff from you. I firmly believe that this is what it means to be authentic - acknowledging what you feel, sharing it with the people you love, and staying in that place of caring. That she joined you in that is, I think, a testament to the power of this practice.

And your recognition that the outcome is uncertain for your relationship with her and that that's OK... All I can say is that you're doing it, friend. This is the way.

I look forward to updates from you, no matter where your life takes you.

Quote from: Robbyv213 on June 23, 2025, 01:11:47 PMWith all the issues being hashed out and all our fears and feelings really truly being discussed for the first time we both felt safe with one another that we both agree no matter what happens we will always be there for one another, and that she definitely wants to be there for me to support me in every step of my transition what ever way that she can even if we're no longer married. I believe that's the best outcome anyone could hope for, and with time who knows anything is possible.

I literally have tears in my eyes, Robby. I have been hoping and praying that you two could reach a point of understanding and compromise. I am so pleased that you have come this far. I remember how upset you were in your earlier posts. Now, you have a calm about you that tells me things are moving in the right direction for both of you.

Thanks for sharing this.

@Lori Dee thank you for your thoughts and prayers, as well as everyone else who has been rooting for us. It is very much appreciated. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Quote from: Robbyv213 on June 23, 2025, 01:11:47 PMShe's also very afraid that my health will be affected negatively. She's a nurse and sees a lot of things over her 21 years of being a nurse. And she's concerned about my physical and mental health, that she's not sure I am able to handle the hardships (when ->-bleeped-<- really hits the fan) that I will mentally be able to withstand it. Basically she thinks I would make an attempt on my own life. Which is a natural concern for her to have.

Her concern is the number one reason for treating gender dysphoria.  Studies show that people are much happier when they can transition.

I survived becoming an ALS caregiver, which is one of the hardest things for spouse to do.
It is why I have a first and 2nd sleep.  I did that to take care of her in middle of the night.
I used a Hoyer lift to get her out of bed every day, as she was afraid of bed sores.  The hospice nurse complimented me on how well I took care of her.

I find "retail therapy"  to be a cheap way to get through these depressing political times.  I just bought a pretty yellow golf skort for $24 off eBay!

I have a question for some of you, this may not apply to everyone. So my question is for anyone who started hormones and only did estrogen or struggled to find the right anti androgen and or dose, did you notice a significant change in muscle mass once you started and or found the right type of anti androgen and dose combined with your estrogen therapy and or HRT protocol in general?

I'm trying to figure out how much the right anti androgen and dose would affect my current BMI and muscle mass. As I am trying to lose muscle and trying to stay relatively in shape. I'm really considering not training any muscles directly that I'm trying to reduce in size. Now that being said if I end up on injections to stop my testosterone from being a problem I feel that I will not have difficulty loosing muscle mass and that I would have to change my approach to continuing to train all muscle just to keep my body from too much muscle loss. If that makes sense.

Currently I am on estrogen injections and I am also on progesterone. I know progesterone also acts as a mild anti androgen. But even with the combination of estrogen and progesterone I still feel that my testosterone is too high. I will have labs to prove or disprove this at the end of July.

I also know that some anti androgens just don't work for some individuals and that getting the shot once every 3 months is the only real way to effectively stop the testosterone (besides surgery) and start the feminizing affects of hrt that one should typically see with the right medications and doses?

Any thoughts?

I don't think I lost a lot of muscle mass, but the fat redistributed so the muscles are less defined, like it filled in the valleys to form a smoother surface. I was on the Eligard (leuprolide) injections for over a year, plus a daily tablet of Casodex (Bicalutamide). At my appointment this morning, my doctor and I agreed to pass on the Eligard injection for now and just take the Casodex. The reasoning is that my estradiol levels (from injection) should be sufficient to suppress testosterone production, so the Eligard may not be needed any longer. If testosterone is not being sufficiently suppressed, it won't matter because the Casodex blocks androgen receptors, making the testosterone ineffective.

That said, your muscle definition will be affected by estrogen as well as testosterone. But you can control the outcome with your workouts. If you just maintain mild to moderate workouts, you will keep some muscle mass, but the fat redistribution will likely reduce muscle definition, making the appearance softer. If you want to maintain more muscle definition, as you know, you can do that through a heavier weight training regimen.

You can see how this works by looking at cis-women who are athletes. Runners have leg muscles developed, but are not bulky. Then you have female bodybuilders and weightlifters who also have the definition and bulk. I think it depends on what your goal is, and then develop your training along those lines. I wouldn't rely on hormones to get it done because I think they play a minor role. I am certainly no expert. That is just my observation.

I would be interested in hearing from Katie (BlueJaye), Jenn, or any of our other athletic members on what their experience has been.

My exercise is geared more toward flexibility than gaining muscle mass.
My method for digging out roses is slow and steady to get as many roots as possible out of the ground.
Everyone else works fast!

I spend a lot of time patiently pruning and weeding my garden.  I grow too many plants close together so I often have to contort or bend to get where I need to go!

I play golf and walk 9 holes.  Not only that, I'll sit down and rest if there is a convenient bench to sit on!  Golf is more about flexibility and sequencing rather than strength.

Instead of giving up training, which may be important for your mental health, I'd suggest training differently.  Maybe you can find activities you can do with your wife and talk about stuff?

@Maid Marion yes I've changed my workout routines a few different times now. I'm definitely focusing way more on cardio trying to get at least 45 minutes to an hour of slow steady state cardio which science says is the best way to burn fat and depending on whether you're fasted or not you could also potentially use muscle as a source for your body's energy during those cardio sessions.

From all the research I've done it all seems to point in the same direction that you would pretty much do the opposite of what you would do to build muscle if you want to try and lose muscle. I don't necessarily want to lose all my muscle but I definitely would like to try and achieve a more feminine figure which I would have to lose some muscle size to do so. Obviously I can't do anything about my bone structure but soft tissue I should be able to manipulate to get in the ballpark so to speak.

So again yes a lot of the research suggests that the quickest way is to not use it because you lose what you don't use. A few of the people that I've been researching and trying to figure out what exactly they did most of them do say that they've basically wasted time trying to continue to weight train and use higher reps with less weight while still doing the regular lower body leg day routines with adding cardio and changing their nutrition.

They all seem to suggest that even with the lightest weights and higher reps any muscles stimulation is enough to keep that muscle from shrinking. It may shrink a little bit and it will definitely lose its strength but it won't shrink enough to see the results that they wanted to see and the results I would hope to see.

So I'm not quite sure if it's more based around my fitness and workout routines or if it's also based on hormones. Since I started HRT back in November I've really only ever been on estrogen and haven't really been on a anti androgen and when I was it was for a very short duration. I feel from my last lab work that my estrogen levels are exactly where they need to be but my testosterone levels are still a little bit high which is when my Endo decided to add progesterone and I've only been on progesterone since the middle of April.

So my question that I asked myself is once I get my hormone regimen where it needs to be and it finally gets my hormone levels where they need to be with estrogen being in the zone and testosterone being where it needs to be will I then see the muscle loss that I had hoped to see when I was trying to use lighter weights and more reps and trying to focus more on cardio and lower body workouts.

Or will it not really matter and it'll be how the individuals who were bodybuilders before transition said that it was extremely difficult to shed off the amount of muscle that they built over the years.

I know it takes time I mean for example it took me 26 years of working out and bodybuilding to get my body to where it was at before I started hormones and transitioning so I know it's not going to be anytime soon and I know it could potentially take years of trying to do whatever I can to get to that new goal I just don't necessarily want to add more years to the process trying to figure out what works and what doesn't lol.

As of right now I am training lower body three times a week with resistance or weight training. I am doing cardio 5 to 6 times a week. And I've been reducing my caloric intake.

I used to do lower body three times a week and have a push day for upper body and a pull day for upper body, while still doing cardio 6 days a week and focusing on nutrition and what I noticed with that was that I was able to be a little leaner or more muscular looking than softer. Which again I don't necessarily mind but I'd prefer to have that look in a smaller package if I were to keep the muscular athletic look.

Anyways I'm just kind of in limbo until the next month when I get my labs done and see what changes my Endo decides to make.

I'm definitely going to continue to work out regardless since that's been a big passion my entire life but like you said it's one of those things where it's most likely going to be trial and error to see what works and what doesn't and watching and learning how CIS women workout and train and most likely implementing some version of that.

Quote from: Robbyv213 on Yesterday at 02:57:43 PMI'm definitely going to continue to work out regardless since that's been a big passion my entire life but like you said it's one of those things where it's most likely going to be trial and error to see what works and what doesn't and watching and learning how CIS women workout and train and most likely implementing some version of that.

Robby,

Long ago, I had the good fortune to meet Amanda Paris at a Health & Wellness convention. We stayed in touch for quite a while, discussing things like nutrition and general fitness.

She sent me this video of her workout. Just body weight, but good cardio and strength training. I hope this can help. At the bottom of the screen, she listed how many reps and sets she does.

Edit: Link not working.... hang on. I had it "hidden". LOL

OK, try this again...

https://imgur.com/gallery/amanda-paris-workout-r7tUQW6

That works!

@Lori Dee I will def watch this.

I know there are some people doing research on. How to train your muscle to lose size.

For example we know that slow twitch muscles are more bulky which is where the actual mass comes from. And we know faster twitch muscles are generally those that are less bulky but still defined tone and usually has higher endurance.

So you typically see bodybuilders or strong men having more slow twitch muscle fibers whereas endurance athletes most likely marathon runners cyclists swimmers and even functional fitness people like CrossFit athletes tend to have more fast twitch muscle fibers.

And there are a few people trying to see if there's a way to change the type of muscle fibers that are dominant in a specific muscle group by changing the resistance that that muscle is put through. I'm not sure how much they've done or how long it would take to potentially change the slow twitch muscle fiber to a fast twitch muscle fiber but the people researching it have said that it is possible.

Now granted you won't change all the muscle fibers from fast to slow or slow to fast but as long as you get the majority of them to change you should hypothetically be able to change the size of the muscle by changing the type of fiber it is over time but retain it's strength.

Now I'm sure that would be easier and quicker to see on someone who is doing their research on a male athlete specifically a male bodybuilder and see how long it would take or see how many muscle fibers are able to be changed over a specific period of time using specific training and nutrition routine

Quote from: Robbyv213 on Yesterday at 03:46:18 PM@Lori Dee I will def watch this.

I know there are some people doing research on. How to train your muscle to lose size.

For example we know that slow twitch muscles are more bulky which is where the actual mass comes from. And we know faster twitch muscles are generally those that are less bulky but still defined tone and usually has higher endurance.

So you typically see bodybuilders or strong men having more slow twitch muscle fibers whereas endurance athletes most likely marathon runners cyclists swimmers and even functional fitness people like CrossFit athletes tend to have more fast twitch muscle fibers.

And there are a few people trying to see if there's a way to change the type of muscle fibers that are dominant in a specific muscle group by changing the resistance that that muscle is put through. I'm not sure how much they've done or how long it would take to potentially change the slow twitch muscle fiber to a fast twitch muscle fiber but the people researching it have said that it is possible.

Now granted you won't change all the muscle fibers from fast to slow or slow to fast but as long as you get the majority of them to change you should hypothetically be able to change the size of the muscle by changing the type of fiber it is over time but retain it's strength.

Now I'm sure that would be easier and quicker to see on someone who is doing their research on a male athlete specifically a male bodybuilder and see how long it would take or see how many muscle fibers are able to be changed over a specific period of time using specific training and nutrition routine

That is interesting. I had no idea that was possible!

Neither did I. Now I guess the question is what is the best way? allowing the muscle to atrophy and shrink from not using it and then re building it with fast twitch muscle fibers better/quicker route than trying to change slow twitch fibers to fast twitch fibers through specific training?

Keeping in mind letting the muscle shrink and then rebuilding it could take up to a year or longer depending on the amount of muscle a individual has and how developed it is. Which could have been a study by men who just want to see more women going without a bra.

Quote from: Robbyv213 on Yesterday at 06:14:27 PMNeither did I. Now I guess the question is what is the best way? allowing the muscle to atrophy and shrink from not using it and then re building it with fast twitch muscle fibers better/quicker route than trying to change slow twitch fibers to fast twitch fibers through specific training?

Keeping in mind letting the muscle shrink and then rebuilding it could take up to a year or longer depending on the amount of muscle a individual has and how developed it is. Which could have been a study by men who just want to see more women going without a bra.

I think this needs more research. More women should go topless. 
The next time you are at the VA, maybe talk to the Physical Therapist. The one here in Rapid City is very knowledgeable on this kind of thing (muscle development, not bra-lessness). Perhaps they can give you some insight, if not the specific answer. They spend a lot of time in school studying this stuff. The worst that could happen is they say "I dunno".