So....... princess katrina, you're saying that trans people who know you are trans people DONT view you as female? they view you as transwoman, so you identify as that?









Um.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 26, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.

Well, for me I changed (trans) my physical sex (sexual), not my gender, so transsexual is accurate for myself. When I hear transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.

Even so, I'm only a transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone "I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a transwoman. I mostly just say, "Hi, I'm Kate!"

~Kate~

The only term I have ever been really comfortable with was used by Harry Benjamin in the early 1960's: "complete psycho-sexual inversion". Described me to a T (pun intended!)

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 27, 2008, 08:38:03 AM
The only term I have ever been really comfortable with was used by Harry Benjamin in the early 1960's: "complete psycho-sexual inversion". Described me to a T (pun intended!)

Well, I don't consider myself a transsexual in the sense of it being a diagnosis. I just see it as a literal description of what I've done (changed sexes). Whether or not I'm a "classic transsexual" in the sense of doing it for the right reasons, having a female brain, being a "woman inside," and so on... is all a rather moot point now, lol.

It always WAS a moot point actually, as however you wanna "explain" my need, whether from satanic possession, sexual deviancy, or being female-brained... the absolute, 24/7 never-gonna-leave-me-alone need to transition would have tortured me until the day I died.

~Kate~

I haven't heard anyone address my by the label transsexual since after the first two years of my transitioning. People in that little town knew about me, of course they did but after those first two years people got use to me and I kind of just blended into the wood work so to speak. I was no longer a new novelty for those with telephonitis, so they moved onto a new victim.

I never really heard about that word again until 8 years later when I rediscovered Susan's and rejoined after 7 years of being away. People in the outside world referred to me as Cindy, her she mam she, etc. When my love Wing Walker and I moved here to Vancouver a years ago there was not a soul who knew us as anything else except as who we present as and I haven't offered any information otherwise except at the TS support groups which we attend occasionally more or like to keep our foot in the door in-case we can be of assistance at some time in the future.

I am only transsexual technically in the medical scientific sense, hmmm I like that. Yea it certainly makes sense, the body's parts that weren't congruent with who we are were permuted, so the label of the physical disorder no longer applies. After nine years I feel like I was always the me I am now with only memories of not being right before.

Kate I left a message for you in the; How Did You Cope Topic.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,46326.new.html#new

Cindy

Quote from: Kate on October 27, 2008, 08:32:03 AMWhen I hear transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.

Exactly. And I think it's very often understood in that sense as the primary meaning, a synonym for genderqueer. Which is another reason I avoid it. Julia Serano has written on the recent trend that prefers genderqueer masculinity while devaluing transsexual womanhood. She rightly criticizes this as a form of misogyny.

QuoteEven so, I'm only a transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone "I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a transwoman. I mostly just say, "Hi, I'm Kate!"

Right on, Kate. Very well said.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 26, 2008, 08:38:16 AM
FROM NOW ON I WANNA BE CALLED FIBROBOY BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDE NTIYY

uh. I have a fever. That may not be as funny as I think it is.

Some people with fibromyalgia identify as people with disabilities.

The reason they identify as PWD is because having a disability frequently has social consequences, just as being trans does.

Quote from: Kate on October 27, 2008, 08:32:03 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 26, 2008, 02:03:55 PM
Transgender, in my view, is a far more appropriate term, regardless of the intent of the person who coined the term.

Well, for me I changed (trans) my physical sex (sexual), not my gender, so transsexual is accurate for myself. When I hear transgender, I think of people who challenge or cross the gender binary in some way, whereas I'm actually doing everything possible to conform to it.

Even so, I'm only a transsexual in a scientific sense. I never *tell* anyone "I'm a transsexual," or for that matter a transwoman. I mostly just say, "Hi, I'm Kate!"

~Kate~

A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.

There is some logic in associating the word sex with the physical since sexual intercourse is considered a physical thing as well, but it still does not remove the simple fact that the word sex, especially in the form of sexual has a strong sexual connotation, in regards to sexual intercourse. It works fine for homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, etc. because those terms have to do with sexual intercourse. Gender Identity really has nothing to do with sex, though, and neither do our transitions. So while we can apply our own unique-ish definition to "sex" to define physical gender and gender identity separately, we are applying a label with [typically] negative connotation to ourselves.

It is far more appropriate to use the term transgender in reference to ourselves, and then use terms like "gender identity" and "physical gender" to distinguish the two concepts. Not only are those terms more obvious in their meanings, even to those not familiar with our community's connotative definitions of "sex vs gender," but they completely eliminate the potentially negative connotations of mixing sex with what we are.

Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 28, 2008, 07:10:38 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 26, 2008, 08:38:16 AM
FROM NOW ON I WANNA BE CALLED FIBROBOY BECAUSE THAT IS MY IDE NTIYY

uh. I have a fever. That may not be as funny as I think it is.

Some people with fibromyalgia identify as people with disabilities.

The reason they identify as PWD is because having a disability frequently has social consequences, just as being trans does.

i guess if i *let* it "have" me. I live the social consequences, believe me (poverty, reduced social activity etc). But I am first and foremost myself. Always. Eff anyone who sticks their labels of whatever sort on me.  Pleased to meet you.

Quote from: Rachael on October 26, 2008, 04:39:58 PM
So....... princess katrina, you're saying that trans people who know you are trans people DONT view you as female? they view you as transwoman, so you identify as that?









Um.

First off, your reply makes very little sense.

However, yes, anyone who is aware that I'm a transwoman and not a genetic female will see me differently than if they were unaware that I began life with a male body. This is not an inherently negative thing, but it is a fact. It is impossible for there not to be a variation in how they view me once they have that knowledge as opposed to prior to having that knowledge.

It paints an entirely different picture to know me as one or the other. To those who believe I'm a genetic female, I grew up as the lesbian daughter of a Baptist Pastor in Texas. That sounds pretty dang complicated, troublesome, and potentially traumatic. To those who know I'm a transwoman, one would wonder why it would've been at all a problem for me to grow up as an apparent "straight boy." I had the freedom to pursue girls that I never would've had if I'd been a genetic female. I had around 30 girlfriends, starting with my first one around age 6, and going up until about age 20, and that's not counting my girl friends. If I tell someone who sees me as a genetic female, the daughter of a Baptist Pastor in Texas, that's going to be a real shocker. If I tell that to someone who knows I'm trans...well, it's still a bit of a "shocker" due to the #, but it's certainly more believable to people that a boy had those girlfriends rather than a girl. I had sleepovers with boys rather frequently, even into my early teens. We'd even sleep in the same bed. I've told that to people who believe I'm a genetic girl before, and they're always rather shocked that a Baptist Pastor let his 10- to 14-year-old daughter share a bed with a 12- to 14-year-old male on numerous occasions and without adult supervision.

My past, which is a definite part of who I am and how I became who I am (in every way other than my gender identity and sexual orientation, anyway), takes on different significances and meanings based on whether you view it as a male growing up, a girl in a male body growing up, or a girl in a girl body growing up. And, in some ways, all three of those views really need to be taken into account to get a 100% accurate of how I came to be the Princess you know today.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM

A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM

A distinction between "sex" and "gender" in the form of "sex refers to the physical" and "gender refers to identity/mental state/soul/however-you-want-to-call-it" is something that's only come about in the past half century and is something I really only see among the trans community. Outside of our community, the more traditional "sex = gender" semantics are still the primary way the words are defined.

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Interesting, boy talk about looking at oneself in the third person. But then I use to do that all the time when I played with my imaginary friends when I was a kid. "Eh!", well, I was a loner and often lonely, back then, so I invented my own friends, usually a girl. So there was lots of third person roll playing. Now if this doesn't make any sense, this message will self district before your finished reading it.

Cindy 

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 12:40:40 AM
i guess if i *let* it "have" me. I live the social consequences, believe me (poverty, reduced social activity etc). But I am first and foremost myself. Always. Eff anyone who sticks their labels of whatever sort on me.  Pleased to meet you.

I don't think anyone I know who identifies as a PWD identifies themselves as their disability rather than themselves. Rather, the identification comes from the social consequences they have in common - much like people who identify as trans, as women, as people of color, and so on.

I'm kind of confused as to why anyone in this thread thinks that someone who identifies hirself as trans must necessarily see "trans" as the defining element of hir identity, though. Lots of trans people have been through similar experiences in terms of being trans in a society that largely wishes we didn't exist as well as transitioning from one sex to another in that society. I'm not sure how it's unusual or strange for anyone to find community or identity this way. I'm not sure how such identities become superficial labels to others? I'm especially not sure how identification as trans somehow delegitimizes any trans person's identity as man or woman.



Posted on: October 29, 2008, 07:08:43 am

---

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 12:31:07 AM
It is far more appropriate to use the term transgender in reference to ourselves, and then use terms like "gender identity" and "physical gender" to distinguish the two concepts. Not only are those terms more obvious in their meanings, even to those not familiar with our community's connotative definitions of "sex vs gender," but they completely eliminate the potentially negative connotations of mixing sex with what we are.

It sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful and want to distance yourself from the idea that being a man or a woman has sexual connotations, which I find kind of strange.

Also, I don't think that "transgender" is descriptive of my experiences at all. I didn't change my gender. My gender has been stable since I was four years old. My sex, however, has changed. Transsexual works fine for me, or trans. I use "transgender" because people think that's what to call us and it takes up too much energy to try to constantly make that distinction... but I still believe in that distinction.

You confuse her meaning.... she is not distancing herself for her sake, but for the sake of jo retard public that THINKS transsexual is somehow sex related.
The fun thing about labels... only others read them...

Quote from: Rachael on October 29, 2008, 07:15:47 AM
You confuse her meaning.... she is not distancing herself for her sake, but for the sake of jo retard public that THINKS transsexual is somehow sex related.

Well, Joe R. Public also tends to think "woman" means "incompetent" and "not as smart," but I'm not distancing myself from that either

~Kate~

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.

Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.

A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.

However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.

Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.

However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."

Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.

I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.

Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.

QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful

I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).

The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.