Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.

Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.

A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.

However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.

Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.

However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."

Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.

I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.

Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.

QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful

I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).

The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.

Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation.  Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.

PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 05:31:02 PM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.

Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.

A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.

However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.

Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.

However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."

Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.

I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.

Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.

QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful

I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).

The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.

Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation.  Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.

PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.

Okay, but what you're talking about still has nothing to do with "physical gender vs gender identity." What you're talking about are terms that refer to an alternative combination of "physical gender" and "gender identity" just as "transwoman" and "transman" refer to an alternative combination other than female identity in genetically female body and male identity in genetically male body.

It has nothing to do with whether or not the word "sex" is synonymous with the word "gender." Even in your "the point . . .  is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender," you're acknowledging the fact that sex and gender are synonymous without appropriate qualifiers (physical, social).

Well, I am wayyyyy lost. But then I didn't even know what transsexual was until 12 years ago. I didn't even know about all the gender variants under the umbrella of transgender, until just recently and I only know or have an idea of about maybe three of them. Although I have no problems talking with anyone I will talk to just about anyone I meet, including Satan. I talked to anyone both on the web and in person until just recently. I know I'm not senile, maybe just still a little naive. Have you never heard of a 63 year old naive lady before? I am certainly a country gal, I can be child like sometimes, but I am not no dummy, either. When I was in college my IQ tested at 170 but then that was 40 years ago, and maybe one's brain shrinks over time.

Now could someone explain to me what this is about a 3rd gender, sex, or whatever? I have been getting a headache as it is from trying to wrap my brain around all the gender variants under the transgender banner.  I have come to learn through the years that there is the male sex, usually associated to the penis and the male gender usually associated to the physical male body. That would go the same for women.

Where does this third sex or third gender come in? Has someone been having sex with aliens from the Beetleguisian star system again?

Well I am partly just kiddin', *but would someone please throw me a life preserver in this gendersexsea?*

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on October 30, 2008, 02:22:19 AM
Well, I am wayyyyy lost. But then I didn't even know what transsexual was until 12 years ago. I didn't even know about all the gender variants under the umbrella of transgender, until just recently and I only know or have an idea of about maybe three of them. Although I have no problems talking with anyone I will talk to just about anyone I meet, including Satan. I talked to anyone both on the web and in person until just recently. I know I'm not senile, maybe just still a little naive. Have you never heard of a 63 year old naive lady before? I am certainly a country gal, I can be child like sometimes, but I am not no dummy, either. When I was in college my IQ tested at 170 but then that was 40 years ago, and maybe one's brain shrinks over time.

Now could someone explain to me what this is about a 3rd gender, sex, or whatever? I have been getting a headache as it is from trying to wrap my brain around all the gender variants under the transgender banner.  I have come to learn through the years that there is the male sex, usually associated to the penis and the male gender usually associated to the physical male body. That would go the same for women.

Where does this third sex or third gender come in? Has someone been having sex with aliens from the Beetleguisian star system again?

Well I am partly just kiddin', *but would someone please throw me a life preserver in this gendersexsea?*

Cindy

Heehee, the "third sex" being referred to in those other cultures is effectively just a eunuch, though some do include HRT to give female characteristics, and are often revered by local custom or religion (that's how it is in Hindu, at least). I've never really bothered checking up on the details enough to see just how closely the ideas relate to the typical modern day transgender man or woman (which is something I think we'd also have to look to the origins of the idea to determine). As far as I'm aware, though, they pretty much only occur in the MTF style. I've never heard of FTMs in this setup.

Frankly, I consider the view flawed, in part because it does seem to omit FTMs, but also because I am not some other gender besides male and female. I am a female. My anatomy is just a tad screwed up.


I'm also, personally, a tad annoyed with our community's seeming obsession with the concepts of Eunuchs. There may have been those among Eunuchs who were basically MTFs, and that is indicated by a certain group within Hindu culture, but the assumption that all Eunuchs were MTFs is absurd. A Eunuch, by definition, is a male who has been castrated, often because he is going to be the guard or servant of a female, and the people "employing" him do not want him tempted by her. If others, like us, managed to "slip under the radar" by becoming Eunuchs, okay; but that doesn't give any validity to saying we and Eunuchs are the same thing. Frankly, I find it rather insulting since that implies that I am (or will be) nothing more than a castrated male.

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 10:43:13 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 05:31:02 PM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 03:55:41 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 09:39:35 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 02:16:38 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:43:54 AM

Quote from: Princess Katrina on October 29, 2008, 01:36:28 AM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 29, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

Not everywhere. Thailand has Kathoey, Fa'fatime in Samoa, those are just two examples where it's more or less normal.

I would guess, from what you said, that you're referring to other languages? Otherwise, I have no clue what you mean.

Kathoey are considered, in their own language, to be either a third gender or "another kind of woman". Some do HRT and the like.

Fa'fatime are similar but no hrt

Then that sounds more like words for "transwomen" or "eunuchs" than using "sex" and "gender" to refer to the difference between psychological gender and physical gender.

Very much no. Did you read what i said? You see, they're from totally different cultures and like i said they're not so "shocking" there (why do you think Thailand is one of the places so many go?). How do you think things got so advanced there? Because it's not "shocking" or "sick" to the larger culture.

Cultural commentary aside, you are completely and entirely missing the point of discussion here.

A term for another gender besides male and female is no different than the term "transgender" or "transsexual." Eunuchs are also at times looked at as being a "third" type of gender, being considered neither male nor female.

However, that is NOT the terminology in question here. The terms being discussed are the words "sex" and "gender" and what they mean.

Look up "sex" and "gender" in the dictionary. The definition of Gender is Sex. The two terms are synonymous. The connotation that "sex" specifically refers to physical status and "gender" specifically refers to mental identity is something we in the transgender community have made up in order to try and explain what we are to others.

However, it would be far more appropriate to just use the terms "physical gender" and "gender identity" to distinguish between those two very aspects, and stick with the term "transgender."

Anyone who says "I did not change my gender; I changed my sex" is contradicting themselves, unless they choose to use the romance novel definition of sex in which case it would specifically mean "genitalia," but that's still using the connotative definitions of what is effectively a subculture.

I'm sorry, but it really does not matter how you prefer to say things, from a purely linguistic standpoint, transgender is more accurate than transsexual. On top of that, there's the ability to avoid other people's negative connotations by eliminating the word "sex" from the whole situation.

Hell, if anything, transsexual would be a logical term for a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-," though at this point in time it would be rather complicated to try and shift the usages of words to reflect that.

QuoteIt sounds like you're positioning the idea of "sex" and "sexuality" as kind of shameful

I don't consider sex or sexuality to be at all shameful. Quite the contrary. However, being a transwoman or a transman has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality beyond dictating how your sexual orientation is labelled, and that doesn't even really have to do with being a transwoman or transman. It just has to do with whether you have a male gender identity or a female gender identity. We don't transition for sexual reasons (though I won't deny that I have no interest in having sex as a male).

The issue is merely that there are massive negative connotations with sexuality, especially any kind of possibly "abnormal" sexuality, among the general populace. Keeping ourselves distinct and separate would do a lot to help curb negative stereotyping of our community. Just the fact that people say "Transsexual" to refer to us tends to bring a negative image to mind upon first hearing it. I know it did for me when I first heard the term years ago, before I ever learned what that really is, and I've always been rather open sexually.

Noooo, MY point in mentioning these two examples (of which of course there are many more) is that it is NOT a universal that physical sex = social gender. The accepted presence of nonbinary persons indicates a sociocultural possibility of separation.  Hell here in the states, the First Peoples have a concept called "two-spirit" and it is again, not the same as WASP conceptions of transgender, but a pretty acceptable part of a person who lives between genders or in a state of "psycho-sexual inversion." It cannot be the same because the culture is different.

PS I like the "transsexual should mean ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-" bit that was BRILL.

Look just forget it. I'm DONE with this conversation---done with repeatedly being told i'm saying what i'm not saying and all that load of crap. It's really disrespectful. You can win and feel you're triumphant at the expense of undermining your understanding of the world and your social position here in the states. Enjoy it.

You bring some interesting points, to bad we couldn't go in one day a man or woman and come out just the opposite with the history to match our tail

Hi, Princess, Thank you for the break down.  It's making a wee bit more sense now.  Eunuch = castrated male, made so for the purpose to work as servants of women, period, that's it. For the exception of the possible few that may have been truly trans. Unable to have an erection? I'm not even certain about that, either. But anyway, IMHO, we, as transsexuals, whether by literal castration or chemical castration, are castrated by choice and for all intents and purposes we are desiring the end result, to be female, with intent to be as female as possible. Our whole life centers around that desire, and again, as far as I'm concerned, once we cross the SRS line, that finalises the deal, the point of no return, we are women, heart and soul.

A lot of difference I would say. So F-M is for the purpose of becoming as congruently male as they can be and M-F is with all intents and purposes to be as congruently female as can be.

Cindy

Quote from: iFindMeHere on October 30, 2008, 11:56:53 AMLook just forget it. I'm DONE with this conversation---done with repeatedly being told i'm saying what i'm not saying and all that load of crap. It's really disrespectful. You can win and feel you're triumphant at the expense of undermining your understanding of the world and your social position here in the states. Enjoy it.

What the hell is your problem? I'm not being the least bit disrespectful. You are talking about cultural concepts of a third gender, separate from male and female. That has absolutely nothing to do with the terms sex and gender. If you can't comprehend that, I'm sorry, but don't go around bitching about someone being disrespectful just because they point out that your little "point" doesn't actually pertain to the discussion that was going on.

Your little bit of input was just mentioning a term that can go into the list with male and female, not what the definitions of "sex" and "gender" are. The discussion never had anything to do with culture, in the US or anywhere else in the world, and everything to do purely with the English language and its terms. The issue might translate into some other European languages, but since non-European languages most definitely do not use the words "sex" and "gender," but rather have their own distinct words that are likely not even used congruently the way those two are in English.

So, how about you give me an apology for that accusation about being disrespectful, as well as an apology for your whiny little "You can win and feel triumphant" BS, okay?

Okay, guys, I hate to put on the mod gloves here but can we try and turn the heat down on this thread a little?

*breaks out the ice packs*

If you have an issue with each other, maybe it would best be resolved through PM rather than open warfare on the public forums. People don't come here for hostility, they come for support and don't need to see members at each other's throats.

Either that or just agree to disagree and move past this.

Thank you.

I agree with Leiandra, Hey if you all wanna PM me I would be more then happy to do my best to mediate something that can be agreed upon with all parties huh? Hey may even give me an opportunity to learn more about what has been hotly discussed in the past few post where I kind of got lost on. I know what Leianrda is sayin though, I own my own group, it's an Empaths group and i have a couple of the girls from her drop by sometimes.  But I truly totally hate it when I have to give some one the royal boot, don't happen often thank goodness. I do much better at meditating.

Cindy

The fight is over a tangential question, not the actual substance of the OP. I hope the thread doesn't get locked, so please make peace, lady and gentleman. If it has to get locked, I would prefer at least it be for a fight over the main topic.

Quote from: Hypatia on October 13, 2008, 07:59:16 PM
However. I have real difficulty seeing how crossdressers and I can fit into the same category. Our issues are completely different. I support transgender rights as a matter of principle, because it's the right thing to do, the same as many non-transgender people support them as allies. I am not putting down crossdressers by defining the vast differences between us.

Hypatia, I couldn't agree more. I have nothing in common with crossdressers. They are males. I have even less than nothing in common with drag queens. They are gay males. I do not like it when they appear at support group meetings for trans people, and having no desire to transition.
It goes like this: Q: "How do you tell the difference between a crossdresser and a trans woman?"
A: "A crossdresser cannot wait to get home and put on his bra. A trans woman cannot wait to get home and take her bra off".

"Hee, hee, hee, hee." I don't go around telling everyone I am Lesbian but then if someone said I had to pick a label, I would say Lesbian. Otherwise, to everyone I associate with through the day in the outside world, I am just a woman but I do looooove getting hugged by a guy. There is something special about that, but then I ain't met anyone from either sex that didn't like me.

Cindy

I like being called transgender...it makes me sound unique in a good way, I always felt. But I also like being known as a woman, or a transwoman....that what I am, afterall. I just don't like when ppl lump TGs into the gay, lesbian, and bi category. I have the mind of a female, and am attracted to males, so I am strait!! I don't associate w/ the gay/lez/bi world in any way, in fact, they tend to make me a bit uncomfortable, certain ones any way.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 13, 2008, 06:14:24 PM
I don't associate [with] the gay/lez/bi world in any way, in fact, they tend to make me a bit uncomfortable, certain ones any way.

Hmmm... your statement is a little too close to being homophobic for my liking.

And i'm not quite sure what "LGB world" you're referring to, last thing i heard was that we share your world too! 

Hmmm, I skimmed through this thread. Unfortunately, it only gave me an urge to lol... 

I'm inclined to agree with Hypatia on this.

This thread has been placed in specific part of the part of the forum known as 'Transsexual talk'. Which, according to the board description, is "A general discussion forum for transsexuals." Since this is, in part, the nature of the thread, it's the best place within the forum for it to be.

Her opinion, and views, are hers, and she's entitled to them. If anyone doesn't agree with them, that's their perogative. But please refrain from throwing insults around at people, or suggesting they leave the site, and debate the issue as rational adults.

I realise this may be a sensitive issue for some, and things may get a little heated as people feel equally strongly about their views, but please, debate would be achieved much more effectively by focusing on the issue at hand and not the character of the person who puts it forward.

If someone wishes to live their life by identifying a certain way, then that should be their decision and, in my opinion, one that should be respected. It's their life. If someone else wishes to identify another way, likewise. That doesn't mean anyone is 'wrong' for seeing themselves as whomever they wish to see themselves as. And, as far as I can see, no one is telling others that they have to identify the same way as them.

They are who they are, you are who you are. People can co-exist, whatever their views. We're all human.

From a mod point of view, glendagladwitch, I would like to point you to this, from the rules of the site:

Quote from: Site rules7. Susan and her staff are the only authorized personnel that are permitted to tell someone to leave. If someone wants to discuss a subject you are not interested in either suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion.

Please bear that in mind.

Thank you.

In reading this I see that two wrongs do not make a right. Glenda suggested that

Quoteit would seem appropriate for that person to LEAVE THIS TRANSGENDER FORUM rather than post divisive and hurtful comments.

This violates Site Rule #15, at least its spirit, and the suggestion was inappropriate.

However, Hypatia followed with

QuoteIt appears you haven't read my original post, either that or you have the reading and comprehension skills of an armadillo.

continuing, suggests

QuoteAgain, you must really need some remedial help with the reading comprehension skills.

and finishes with

Quoteyou wouldn't happen to be a troll, would you? Now leave my thread alone where I wasn't pestering you and was just minding my business, and go start your own.

Which appears to violate Site Rule #15:

Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

To the point, threads and their possession is the Site's. Threads belong to the Site not to an individual:

Quote18. By submitting any information to this internet site you hereby grant a irrevocable license to use the information of which you are the owner to the owner of this internet site, and to other individuals which are designated by the site owners.

This includes but is not limited to your profile information, contributed photographs, forum posts and messages, wiki articles, email messages which are sent by you to the site staff or owner and their responses, and any other materials submitted by you to this website but which are not specified here.

This license is understood to include the rights of use to all intellectual property rights owned by you to the material in question, including but not limited to trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and so on.

These granted rights may be exercised, or terminated and the material removed; at the sole descretion of the website's owner at any time, without further notification of these actions being required. Any materials which are used under this granted license will contain proper attribution as to it's source.

Please both posters: calm yourselves. No matter what either one of you desires or doesn't desire as a "group" you certainly have the right to your opinions and your desires. You are both extremely intelligent and over time have both added positively to the Site.

Please disagree somewhat agreeably, ladies. It will make my job, other mod's jobs, and the Administrators' jobs that much simpler. Thank you both.

Nichole

P.S. Both of you might wish to consider editing your last responses, please, to better fit board etiquette and rules.

That would seem to me to be a nice gesture from both of you.

Thanks.

Is it not, infact, the spirit of this site for people to belive what they wish? Afterall, some of the kooky and wacky identities that crop up here pale Hypattia's view into insignificance... Live and let live is the general hollarings in these parts... i suggest people who dont want to debate this topic sensibly and feel they must order her off the site ought to try that aproach...

What's up with all the discord on this board lately, I'm running out of places to go to find friendly intelligent conversation.  Did Jupiter take a left turn at Saturn instead of right? Goddess forgive the god of Neptune, and the god of Mercury have crotch crickets. 

Cindy