We had the frustrations of womanhood and manhood so we might as well have a thread on the frustrations of androgynehood.

1. Boys in the hood
2. Robin Hood
3. Not having a hood
4. Piercings in the hood (ok, only frustrating waiting for them to heal)
5. Rebis

- more seriously now -
6. Lack of recognition and place
7. All the clothing options in the world
8. No clothing options specifically for us
9. Detachment
10. Lack of resources
66. Questions about gender with only 2 options
11. Official documents like a birth certificate
12. Titles (particulalry when filling out official forms)
13. Dysphoria

And then, there are those who demand that we "make a committment" to one gender or another.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 10, 2008, 01:46:18 PM
And then, there are those who demand that we "make a committment" to one gender or another.

yeah Shade-diddy, you got to man up and be a woman.

Looking too female

Not knowing how much recognition I actually need or deserve (constantly being afraid that I'm trespassing on a turf I have no right to, appropriation issues etc)

Seldom being 100% sure that I'm not just deluding myself

Feeling like a failed man

Feeling like a failed woman

Feeling guilty for not IDing/presenting as androgyne in more spaces

Feeling guilty for not having started IDing/presenting as androgyne earlier in life

Feeling guily for presenting as female to prospective empoyers

Worrying that I'm not presenting as female enough and this is affecting my employment prospects

Feeling like I should just be able to shrug all of this off or sort it out, and if I was "really" 3rd I would just be able to

Feeling bad for feeling bad, when there's so many people far worse off

Wondering if things will ever get better

That whole guilt thing is really interesting. I feel some of that too. I feel guilty about not being comfortable as a man or a woman. People sometimes infer or ask "why can't you just be a man?". For some reason I find it difficult to get the message accross that it hurts.

That people freak out and try to make more out of your androgyny than what's there.

Oh, forgot:  "I'm attracted to you but you look like a bloke/look like a woman, and this is making me uncertain about my sexuality.  Therefore you should put on a dress/wear trousers, so I don't have to feel uncomfortable."

People just not wanting to think there is such a thing, that everyone has to be male or female...

Not really being able to find the words to explain others what you're going through...

Quote from: Nicky on December 10, 2008, 01:25:15 PM
5. Rebis

Lol!

Yes, having em around is a constant source of frustration, embarrassment and envy.

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6. Lack of recognition and place

How about always feeling just a little like an outsider? Being able to almost feel like belonging in a group of either men or women, but never getting quite there?

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66. Questions about gender with only 2 options
11. Official documents like a birth certificate

In essence, not even having the option of coming out, as far as official paperwork is concerned.

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12. Titles (particulalry when filling out official forms)

This was one of the definite perks of getting my Ph.D. Of course there are other reasons to be uncomfortable about presenting as Dr. such-and-so when ordering a T-shirt from a web store, but it still feels more right than Mr.

Quote from: Lokaeign on December 10, 2008, 03:35:42 PM
Looking too female

Or not feeling justified to get things fixed. After all, it's supposed to be no big deal.

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Seldom being 100% sure that I'm not just deluding myself

And that goes both ways. Am I deluding myself that my gender issues are closely related to those experienced by binary transsexuals, or am I deluding myself that I'm not one of them?

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Feeling like a failed man
Feeling like a failed woman

Also feeling like a failed TS. There are more gender stereotypes that we are breaking than just the cisgendered ones.

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Feeling guilty for not IDing/presenting as androgyne in more spaces
Feeling guily for presenting as female to prospective empoyers
Worrying that I'm not presenting as female enough and this is affecting my employment prospects

In other words, feeling guilty for taking advantage of the binary presumption. Most people don't expect there to be androgynes, so usually they don't really see us as queer. A lot of the time we still have cissexual privilege, and many of us have male privilege, even after whatever passes for transition. But in the process we've got a few glimpses of how the system works, so having that privilege comes with quite a bit of guilt, and also a constant fear of losing it.

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Feeling like I should just be able to shrug all of this off or sort it out, and if I was "really" 3rd I would just be able to

If gender doesn't matter to me, why does it matter that others don't see my gender? I guess the answer is that the premise is wrong: being androgyne does not mean that gender doesn't matter, just that neither of the two common options fit.

Nice thread, by the by. Thanks.

  Nfr

The Biggy for me is Not Fitting in anywhere
I don't fit with sisgendered people
I dont fit with TS People
& I don't fit with cross dressers.
I'm just too different
am I realy the only non binary trans person in my RL Village
there are many terms I come across that were ment for people who don't fit but the nice ones have been stolen by the binary TS
a while ago I posted on a forum started by the australian government finding about the issues of the "gender diverse" comunity and how the wording of laws should be done to be inclusive and not harmfull
My post was the only non binary post.

How about the one where when you try to explain to people, they say that that's just normal, everybody has masculine and feminine traits.

Quote from: Nero on December 11, 2008, 09:59:43 AM
How about the one where when you try to explain to people, they say that that's just normal, everybody has masculine and feminine traits.

Actually, that one doesn't bother me so much. To me, it's far better than the just-commit-to-one-or-the-other nonsense... which I've encountered here.

Oh yeah, the binary has a huge fan club here, and a lot of people have a lot invested in that split.

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2008, 10:21:19 AM
Oh yeah, the binary has a huge fan club here, and a lot of people have a lot invested in that split.

And if the binary works for them, great! But, it doesn't work for all.

Quote from: Emme on December 11, 2008, 10:29:41 AM
Wouldn't that make sense though?  If transition wasn't such a pain the butt, and people could slide down the spectrum as needed, then I wouldn't see people making much of an issue of it.  When you have to fight so hard to make something your reality, I can see why people would try and defend it.  Otherwise, why work so hard to get there?

Yes, it does make sense for those who transition from one binary option to the other.

What doesn't make sense is for those who transition to demand that androgynes or non-binary-gender-variants commit to one half of a binary that doesn't seem to apply.

I wonder, that to the degree that a bunch of options are open, how compelled would the choice be?  How strong is the drive to follow path a OR path b when you have paths from c-z open also.

And choosing the binary wouldn't bother me near as much if there wasn't the added burden of also buying into some of the worst stereotypes on both sides, and the investments in keeping those stereotypes as the norm.

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2008, 11:12:39 AMAnd choosing the binary wouldn't bother me near as much if there wasn't the added burden of also buying into some of the worst stereotypes on both sides, and the investments in keeping those stereotypes as the norm.

I try to fight through this argument, actually.  My frustration has really been very little to do with my body, but almost exclusively with the stereotypes and gender roles.  I try to make the "male androgyne" or "androgynous male" thing work, but it's tedious to make this case to people who are absorbed in the existing stereotypes and gender roles.

I do most of the time feel guilty for not proving myself to be man enough, yet the inner girl is always screaming at me for being too much of a guy.

And by what criteria is any of that done?  You didn't beat up enough people today?  Most people never fight.  Most guys don't fight.  Yeesh, get a lawyer and all.  Or what, you didn't fix anything?  Or you cooked too well and that makes you a girl.  Or your girl side was mad because you were so rude, and you think that's what being a guy is? Or what?

I guess that's kinda what I'm talking about.  I bet all that stuff is just stereotypes left over from a past age.