There are two things you should keep in mind here.

First, what Susan wrote was in response to a pretty inflamed dispute about whether androgynes were real, or the gender binary was real, or the identities of various people on either side of the dispute were real. Ultimately the point was to stop the discussion from escalating to a forum-wide flame war, or else. Or so it seemed to me, at any rate.

Second, the wiki entry was recently edited by me, and I'd like to delude myself that I've got an insider's view on how it feels to be an androgyne. It's how I see this, and also as close to what I think can be considered a consensus here as I could make it. It's also consistent with my reading of Susan's definitions. However, if someone -- either Susan or one of you -- feels I've crossed some kind of a line, please let me know so I may make any appropriate apologies. On the other hand, if you agree with it, great.

Third (of the two points), I'm more than just a little tipsy right now, courtesy of an office Christmas party. Thanks for indulging me.

  Nfr

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 12, 2008, 10:29:52 AM
I've posted this before and I'll do so now again. If I am at the wrong site, I will delete my account and go away quietly. It is not my intention to be disruptive.

Please stay! You're whatever gender you are, and that's good enough reason. Besides, TS is self diagnosis, so why not androgyne?

Z

Quote from: Seshatneferw on December 12, 2008, 05:16:04 PM
Second, the wiki entry was recently edited by me, and I'd like to delude myself that I've got an insider's view on how it feels to be an androgyne. It's how I see this, and also as close to what I think can be considered a consensus here as I could make it. It's also consistent with my reading of Susan's definitions. However, if someone -- either Susan or one of you -- feels I've crossed some kind of a line, please let me know so I may make any appropriate apologies. On the other hand, if you agree with it, great.

Your definition looks good ot me 

Z

Reading over that thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html I'm not really surprised that there was a negative response.  A male-bodied person expressing the desire to have breasts is one thing, blatantly fetishistic drooling over a DDD-cup fantasy is out of line.  I'd be very unhappy if I saw a comment like that.

I think it's fair to say something like "as an androgyne I feel like I'm not taken very seriously sometimes," but doesn't the duty lie with me as an androgyne to create a meaningful challenge to that by trying to set an example?  I'm not terribly enamoured of the "dear fluffy little androgynes, how cute" stuff (I'm not a kid and my gender issues are not a joke), but surely the answer to that is to try and make a serious contribution. 

The whole breast thing just seemed like a red hearing. I did not think that it was a good reason to deny the opportunity to review something that did not seem to fit the members of the site (unwillingness to see androgyne as a gender identity perhaps?). The definition in the wiki is far superior than the limited and inaccruate "Androgyne: An androgynous person. Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior." This definition did not take into account that many androgynes are not androgynous is dress apprearance and behavior (probably because of social preasure).

If Androgyne=Androgynous is the definition of the site then it would be more accurate to call this forum the androgynous forum. But if the definition used on the site is the one provided for in the wiki then I think we are sorted.

Because the society I live as part of only recognizes two genders as legitimate, I'm rarely perceived to be the non binary gender variant person who I am unless I out myself as such. People make an assumption that I'm my birth sex. I'm not!

To say that this is merely frustrating is an understatement. Being invisible is a never ending gnawing at the core of my being.

Z

I think a lot of the problems that arise come from alot of misunderstandings.

The general public doesn't understand TS, TG, gender, and sexuality.  And they don't definitely don't understand the difference between them. Then the information they do get is nothing but sensationalistic (sp?) junk. And it all gets mixed up.  Unfortunately the misunderstandings seep into this community as well.

Those of us who are not doing this for political, sensationalistic,  attention, or other nonsensical reasons are lift to the bear the brunt of the overflow.

I know that because for a long time I tried to be a normal biogirl.  I knew I was different, but I didn't want to minimize what those who needed more than I needed was going through.
I'm here now because I realized that I don't like being invisible. I don't like people seeing me for who I am. I don't want to hide anymore.....

Sorry if this seems choppy or incomplete, I lost track of my thought somewhere in the middle...

Quote from: Jemma on December 14, 2008, 06:43:04 PM
Sorry if this seems choppy or incomplete, I lost track of my thought somewhere in the middle...

Spoken like an Androgyne 

This will probably sound a little cheesy Jemma, but I know you exist. I don't want to be invisible either.

Quote from: Nicky on December 14, 2008, 07:29:02 PM
This will probably sound a little cheesy Jemma, but I know you exist. I don't want to be invisible either.

Thanks. 

Quote from: Zythyra on December 14, 2008, 05:05:40 PM
Because the society I live as part of only recognizes two genders as legitimate, I'm rarely perceived to be the non binary gender variant person who I am unless I out myself as such. People make an assumption that I'm my birth sex. I'm not!

To say that this is merely frustrating is an understatement. Being invisible is a never ending gnawing at the core of my being.

Z

agreed

I agree too. I would put that at #1

My lonely androgyne soul bleeds so...

Sometimes I want to cry.  I know it doesn't have to be this way for us and knowing that makes it worse.

My God, we're becoming big babies today. 

We're The Invisibles?

Bagsy King Mob.

Quote from: Lokaeign on December 15, 2008, 12:07:45 AM
We're The Invisibles?

Bagsy King Mob.

I'll be Lord Fanny

Something I'm stuggling with is being told not to wear what makes me comfortable because they can't cope with me wearing what makes me comfortable but wont let me explain

Well, I'm too busy being frustrated by being in a dull job, having no money and being cold all the time - that's enough frustration to be getting on with.

Hi
I it's think it was a very old Alistair McLean novel, were someone was being tortued by the badies, that he said to his colleague. "Knowing the molecular make up of a snow flake is of no comfort when you are buried in an avalanche"

I think it's time I went to bed.
Good Night Australia

Cindy James

Quote from: Nicky on December 15, 2008, 08:53:39 PM

Quote from: Lokaeign on December 15, 2008, 12:07:45 AM
We're The Invisibles?

Bagsy King Mob.

I'll be Lord Fanny

can I be the redhead, not that it matters if  we are invisable 

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 16, 2008, 02:04:09 AM
Well, I'm too busy being frustrated by being in a dull job, having no money and being cold all the time - that's enough frustration to be getting on with.

You're a real downer.

You should get an exciting job in a hot house.

Quote from: Rebis on December 16, 2008, 02:04:21 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on December 16, 2008, 02:04:09 AM
Well, I'm too busy being frustrated by being in a dull job, having no money and being cold all the time - that's enough frustration to be getting on with.

You're a real downer.

You should get an exciting job in a hot house.

Or maybe an exciting job in a hot house.