Quote from: Katia on April 26, 2009, 09:12:31 AM
transsexualism isn't an "identity"; it's a diagnosable & treatable medical condition characterized by intense gender dysphoria & body dysmorphia.  like with any medical condition you either fit the medical criteria or you don't.  it isn't rocket science.   

"non-op" is a term that's becoming increasingly difficult to justify.  in the past it referred only to those people who were transsexual but were unable to have surgery for clinical reasons. yet improvements in surgical and anaesthetic techniques and procedures now mean that there are very, very few people who are genuinely unable to have surgery for those reasons.  harry benjamin used the term "transgenderist" for non-ops but it's important to mention that he also noted "wavering between TV and TS"


harry benjamin's scale: http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Benjamin_Scale


dr. watson's: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/watson.html 


Benjamin also said:   



more here: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm#Transvestism%20versus%20transsexualism

also, the term "non-op transsexual" is an oxymoron. the term "transsexual" was coined by a reporter in the late 50's after christine jorgensen had her surgery. at that point in time, there were only 2 terms. ts for those who obtained/wanted surgery, and tv for those who didn't.  the term tg was coined in the late 60's around the time of the stonewall riots and was first used for those who lived as the other sex without grs. so it was for someone who was more serious than a crossdresser, but without the desire for a complete transition. that is what a non-op is, not a preop who must stay there. non-op is in one's head, not in their circumstances.

if a person cannot have grs, they are pre-op, rather than a non-op. if they could get surgery, they would.  a non-op is one who would never get surgery even if you wrote them a check for a million dollars.

furthermore, for me, "can't-op" or "perpetual preop" is not the same as non-op. a non-op has nothing against their original parts below.  non-op is a mindset rather than a condition. what i call a "can't-op" is someone who is too disadvantaged, sick, or elderly to get surgery.  so there is a big difference between having the non-op mindset and simply being unable to have grs.

btw i don't attach ts onto the end of non-op. i consider non-op people a variety of tg but not ts, not better or worse, just different & ya i know about the site terms & definitions, i also know there's a child board for non-ops on here.  that doesn't change what harry benjamin said nor does it change what i believe.

Very well put Katia, and I agree.

LR

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 26, 2009, 05:25:11 AM
To put it simply, the transition-or-die position claims transsexual privilege and denies that privilege from the likes of me.

I'm fine with someone who doesn't transition or detransitions claiming the term transsexual, but--just by browsing Susans--a lot of people who take that route don't seem to be all that happy with their lives not transitioning, such as young woman who wrote this piece.

Transitioning or not transitioning, pre-op, post-op, non-op, never-even-considered-doing-anything-but-dressing-every-now-and-then or started/stopped/started agin/stopped again --- none of it brings happiness as thouh it's some deus ex machina flying in from the wings to center-stage to sprinkle fairy dust all over someone and make him pr her suddenly sane, happy, content and totally congruent.

The arguments about names and definitions and who's better-than or worse-than who has enough money, balls, courage, fear, suicidal ideation or death-wish to do it, not, stay forever halfway mean absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Katia has ideas, Ladyrider has ideas, Kristi, Nfr, Mister, Pia, Sandy, cindybc, ilikepotatoes, imaz and Nichole all have ideas about O-U-R lives and how they have worked-out, or haven't or what they might have been like if we hadn't done what we did or if transition had waited or been sooner, etc.

It's all just very intensely personal and the attempts to make everyone fit into a specific mould or straight-jacket mostly defined by how I feel or think or react to my own life's circumstances is one useless preoccupation.

Thank Mother I have but one life to lead at a time in this plane and needn't live everyone else's for them. My own seems a lot to handle most days.

I can say what I wish and declare what I wish -- all it may do is make me personal feel better about how I have decided to live me life, give me some sense that my choice was the "right and only real choice." Screw that.

We have a rather unique situation in which, as Sandy very rightly points out, that ONLy we can diagnose what we have. Then we say and do things with a therapist or medical doctor that clinch that diagnosis. And tbh, it's not very hard to say "all the right things" if you're intent on getting surgery, whether or not you are trans-anything.

There are thousands of pages of primer material available. And the odds of you being found out at once monthly sessions with much of anyone is pretty much zero, unless your previously diagnosed mental disorder flairs out of your control and you spill the beans yopurself you can pretty much go from man to woman as you will -- it's been done -- or woman to man as you will.

Should you? I rather think not and yes, that's exactly what this article is good at putting out there.

As for all the definition stuff -- have your own, you basically do anyhow, no matter who you are and where you came from. It's the human condition.

Nichole

For some of us the gloom and doom figures about the possibility of death are a plus rather than a minus.

Quote from: Ladyrider on April 26, 2009, 10:42:02 AM
Very well put Katia, and I agree.

Ah, but you are a transsexual? 

Around the time I came here, I read a lot of stuff along the same lines. All of what Katia quoted, and a lot more, describe under the label of 'transsexual' just the feelings I've had since about primary school. The collective wisdom, right from the Benjamin scale onwards, is that transsexual people will all eventually need to transition. Now, when I came here I wasn't sure about that, but since I had that pesky dysphoria about my physical sex and had never had any desire whatsoever to cross-dress, I let myself be convinced that I too was transsexual and thus would need to transition -- and of course, the sooner it was over the better. The next couple of months were pretty hard.

However, it eventually dawned on me that I really should trust my own feelings, once I had figured out what they were. Around the same time I found the androgyne section here, and saw that there were a few people with roughly similar issues. About a year and a half later I parted company with my therapist, as we both agreed that there was no need for regular sessions -- I was pretty stable with regard to my gender. But on the Benjamin scale the descriptions for 'true transsexual' are still the ones that most closely match how I feel.

Now, I do not want to claim that I'm true transsexual, whatever that means. I'm simply annoyed by the claims that there is a sharp difference between TS and TG, because my experience clearly shows to me that this is not always the case. Whether it's a matter of intensity, or of having an extraordinarily good fantasy life, or something else, is not important; the important part is that not everyone who has a continuous and intense desire for a different set of genitals and does not care about cross-dressing automatically needs to transition. Such claims, and my desire to finally find a gender group I belong to, almost made me mess up large sections of my life -- and if that happened to me that could easily happen to someone else. That is what I really find horrible in all this.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 26, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
Ah, but you are a transsexual? 

<cut>
  Nfr

Of course not...    Well not any more.  I was diagnosed with GID in accordance with DSM-IV by both my therapists, supported by my physician, and classified by them under ICD as transsexual.  All recommended a medically supervised treatment regimen that involved the administration of medications, the monitoring of my social and physical well being, continuing therapy, culminating in surgical procedures to correct deformities that were causing me much anxiety.

Happily treatment was successful and I was cured.  So again nope not transsexual, but simply a woman.

Is there danger?  Indeed there is. Every aspect of transition is fraught with danger and I feel the article tries to point that out.

LR

Hi Kiera hun,

Quote"pre-op" because i cannot afford it right now does that mean i must also be "unhappy"?

No it does not mean you have to be unhappy. Being pre-op means just that, unable to at the present time. I thought I would never get the funds or opportunity to have the surgery.

My #1 priority was to resign to adjust to life living in the mind and body as who I presented one day at a time. I was happy being who I was and accomplished much and never gave what was south of the border much of a though except for when I went to the bathroom.

#2 I wasn't looking for a male partner, actually at the time I wasn't looking for any partners male or female to worry about any hang-ups that way. I was way much to busy fitting into society to worry much about anything else.

So the day came I was by all description to an outside observer a female. 

All I did was just put the need for surgery on the back burner and worked on all the other aspects of being the best me I could.

Cindy

I agree with many points here - the article serves as a good (albeit slightly hypochondrial) warning of the dangers involved. I also agree that although the author has probably written this more for her own benefit (as this little tidbit reveals:

QuoteCONCLUSION: Ironically, in a lot of ways, I'm too traditionally feminine to do this! There's quite a bit of truth in the phrase "man enough to become a woman" (and, yes, I have come across this phrase!). It looks like transitioning is only an option for more masculine or androgynous women in men's bodies. (There's a concept to stretch your mind around!) In fact, studies show that successful transsexuals are "healthily androgynous"--something I, unfortunately, am not. Even then, they have to be willing to be thought of as transsexuals instead of as women. After what I went through growing up, I couldn't live with that.

it still may serve as a good reality check to those who may not have thought this through thoroughly enough.

Quote from: Nichole on April 26, 2009, 11:58:15 AM
<Cut>
The arguments about names and definitions and who's better-than or worse-than who has enough money, balls, courage, fear, suicidal ideation or death-wish to do it, not, stay forever halfway mean absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Katia has ideas, Ladyrider has ideas, Kristi, Nfr, Mister, Pia, Sandy, cindybc, ilikepotatoes, imaz and Nichole all have ideas about O-U-R lives and how they have worked-out, or haven't or what they might have been like if we hadn't done what we did or if transition had waited or been sooner, etc.

But surely opinion is a valuable thing.  After all this is a "forum" where opinion should be expected, along with ideas, notions, facts or fiction, advise and support.  We all have opinions, some that we hold dear, and expressing them, while meaning "absolutely nothing" to some, may be valuable to others.  Just my opinion

Quote
It's all just very intensely personal and the attempts to make everyone fit into a specific mould or straight-jacket mostly defined by how I feel or think or react to my own life's circumstances is one useless preoccupation.

But then there are those who have a need to fit in to a specific mould, something to identify with.  Just like here at Susan's... everyone is expected to accept being included under the TG umbrella... "You can not say you are not transgender" while at Susan's anyway, it's a way of making everyone fit into a specific mould or straight jacket.

Quote
<Cut>
We have a rather unique situation in which, as Sandy very rightly points out, that ONLy we can diagnose what we have. Then we say and do things with a therapist or medical doctor that clinch that diagnosis. And tbh, it's not very hard to say "all the right things" if you're intent on getting surgery, whether or not you are trans-anything.

There are thousands of pages of primer material available. And the odds of you being found out at once monthly sessions with much of anyone is pretty much zero, unless your previously diagnosed mental disorder flairs out of your control and you spill the beans yopurself you can pretty much go from man to woman as you will -- it's been done -- or woman to man as you will.

Many surgeons requires two letters (If they follow the criteria) from two independent therapists who are in essence not part of the same team/practice.  A patient may be able to fool one therapist but fooling two would be a little more difficult.  But then what idiot would got though the hell of transition and surgery on a whim.  I agree that there have been some cases of misguided souls that hit the airwaves who have regretted what they've done but compared to the total number of success stories I would imagine that the number of "Mistakes" is low.

Quote
As for all the definition stuff -- have your own, you basically do anyhow, no matter who you are and where you came from. It's the human condition.

Nichole

Just my opinion

LR

Quoteeveryone is expected to accept being included under the TG umbrella... "You can not say you are not transgender" while at Susan's anyway, it's a way of making everyone fit into a specific mould or straight jacket.

I am my own stripe of cat, have been a loner most of my life and rejected by most of the mainstream of society, nothing to do with being trans, just different. I don't always approve of the way that society in general tries to label members of the human race, attempting to put us in our own in little box type of deal. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid. IMHO it would probably be about as productive as trying to herd cats.

I would like to think I have been here at Susan's long enough to have discovered I am not the only one here who is their own stripe of cat.

I am a woman with a history of having  been transsexual. I don't fit in any particular little boxes. I don't want to fit in under anyone's umbrella. However, I did come back here to this group after being away for 7 years with the hopes of my being able to share my experiences and give support to those who seek it.

I got kicked in the shins a few times for having misinterpreted and misunderstood the diference between TG and TS but when ever I do I am quite prompt in making apologies and I move on. I learn, I stumble, and get up, move on, and continue to learn and in the learning I accumulate tools to work with that help me to give guidance to others on this journey.

Cindy 

Quote from: Ladyrider on April 26, 2009, 05:14:17 PM

Quote from: nichole<Cut>
The arguments about names and definitions and who's better-than or worse-than who has enough money, balls, courage, fear, suicidal ideation or death-wish to do it, not, stay forever halfway mean absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Katia has ideas, Ladyrider has ideas, Kristi, Nfr, Mister, Pia, Sandy, cindybc, ilikepotatoes, imaz and Nichole all have ideas about O-U-R lives and how they have worked-out, or haven't or what they might have been like if we hadn't done what we did or if transition had waited or been sooner, etc.

But surely opinion is a valuable thing.  After all this is a "forum" where opinion should be expected, along with ideas, notions, facts or fiction, advise and support.  We all have opinions, some that we hold dear, and expressing them, while meaning "absolutely nothing" to some, may be valuable to others.  Just my opinion

Quote from: nicholeIt's all just very intensely personal and the attempts to make everyone fit into a specific mould or straight-jacket mostly defined by how I feel or think or react to my own life's circumstances is one useless preoccupation.

But then there are those who have a need to fit in to a specific mould, something to identify with.  Just like here at Susan's... everyone is expected to accept being included under the TG umbrella... "You can not say you are not transgender" while at Susan's anyway, it's a way of making everyone fit into a specific mould or straight jacket.

Quote from: nichole<Cut>
We have a rather unique situation in which, as Sandy very rightly points out, that ONLy we can diagnose what we have. Then we say and do things with a therapist or medical doctor that clinch that diagnosis. And tbh, it's not very hard to say "all the right things" if you're intent on getting surgery, whether or not you are trans-anything.

There are thousands of pages of primer material available. And the odds of you being found out at once monthly sessions with much of anyone is pretty much zero, unless your previously diagnosed mental disorder flairs out of your control and you spill the beans yopurself you can pretty much go from man to woman as you will -- it's been done -- or woman to man as you will.

Many surgeons requires two letters (If they follow the criteria) from two independent therapists who are in essence not part of the same team/practice.  A patient may be able to fool one therapist but fooling two would be a little more difficult.  But then what idiot would got though the hell of transition and surgery on a whim.  I agree that there have been some cases of misguided souls that hit the airwaves who have regretted what they've done but compared to the total number of success stories I would imagine that the number of "Mistakes" is low.

Quote from: nicholeAs for all the definition stuff -- have your own, you basically do anyhow, no matter who you are and where you came from. It's the human condition.

Nichole

Just my opinion

LR

heh hehe.. ladyrider i agree with you. very well put.  we're here to express opinions, otherwise what's the point of this forum? naturally we won't all think in the same way and so it's terrific when we can agree to disagree.  thing is that anyone and i mean anyone, regardless of the situation who gets defensive is in fear. something external triggers or reminds them of something unresolved and they go into fear.  and this is all happening unconsciously; most don't even realize what they're doing! defensiveness is exactly that: defending against perceived external threats. the irony is that the threat lies WITHIN them.

something external triggers or reminds them of something unresolved and they go into fear.  and this is all happening unconsciously; most don't even realize what they're doing! defensiveness is exactly that: defending against perceived external threats. the irony is that the threat lies WITHIN them.

Who left it unresolved?
Who lets it trigger?
Not realizing is just another way of saying, 'can't be bothered to pay attention."
No one is obligated to defend you, so you best learn to defend yourself, the very action of trying to learn gives you power.
Perception is not reality.  Most threats are not real threats.
If the problem is 'within' so to is the only solution.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 26, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
Ah, but you are a transsexual? 

Around the time I came here, I read a lot of stuff along the same lines. All of what Katia quoted, and a lot more, describe under the label of 'transsexual' just the feelings I've had since about primary school. The collective wisdom, right from the Benjamin scale onwards, is that transsexual people will all eventually need to transition. Now, when I came here I wasn't sure about that, but since I had that pesky dysphoria about my physical sex and had never had any desire whatsoever to cross-dress, I let myself be convinced that I too was transsexual and thus would need to transition -- and of course, the sooner it was over the better. The next couple of months were pretty hard.

However, it eventually dawned on me that I really should trust my own feelings, once I had figured out what they were. Around the same time I found the androgyne section here, and saw that there were a few people with roughly similar issues. About a year and a half later I parted company with my therapist, as we both agreed that there was no need for regular sessions -- I was pretty stable with regard to my gender. But on the Benjamin scale the descriptions for 'true transsexual' are still the ones that most closely match how I feel.

Now, I do not want to claim that I'm true transsexual, whatever that means. I'm simply annoyed by the claims that there is a sharp difference between TS and TG, because my experience clearly shows to me that this is not always the case. Whether it's a matter of intensity, or of having an extraordinarily good fantasy life, or something else, is not important; the important part is that not everyone who has a continuous and intense desire for a different set of genitals and does not care about cross-dressing automatically needs to transition. Such claims, and my desire to finally find a gender group I belong to, almost made me mess up large sections of my life -- and if that happened to me that could easily happen to someone else. That is what I really find horrible in all this.

  Nfr

Thank you; I agree for the most part with both of your posts.  I would write more, but I'm tired.   Maybe I'll be more motivated tomorrow.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 26, 2009, 02:13:44 PM
Ah, but you are a transsexual? 

Around the time I came here, I read a lot of stuff along the same lines. All of what Katia quoted, and a lot more, describe under the label of 'transsexual' just the feelings I've had since about primary school. The collective wisdom, right from the Benjamin scale onwards, is that transsexual people will all eventually need to transition. Now, when I came here I wasn't sure about that, but since I had that pesky dysphoria about my physical sex and had never had any desire whatsoever to cross-dress, I let myself be convinced that I too was transsexual and thus would need to transition -- and of course, the sooner it was over the better. The next couple of months were pretty hard.

However, it eventually dawned on me that I really should trust my own feelings, once I had figured out what they were. Around the same time I found the androgyne section here, and saw that there were a few people with roughly similar issues. About a year and a half later I parted company with my therapist, as we both agreed that there was no need for regular sessions -- I was pretty stable with regard to my gender. But on the Benjamin scale the descriptions for 'true transsexual' are still the ones that most closely match how I feel.

Now, I do not want to claim that I'm true transsexual, whatever that means. I'm simply annoyed by the claims that there is a sharp difference between TS and TG, because my experience clearly shows to me that this is not always the case. Whether it's a matter of intensity, or of having an extraordinarily good fantasy life, or something else, is not important; the important part is that not everyone who has a continuous and intense desire for a different set of genitals and does not care about cross-dressing automatically needs to transition. Such claims, and my desire to finally find a gender group I belong to, almost made me mess up large sections of my life -- and if that happened to me that could easily happen to someone else. That is what I really find horrible in all this.

  Nfr

I'll agree with that too....

In the shades of grey between black and white, where can one be certain as to where to place the dividing marker that delineates the shades going towards black and the ones going towards white?

I guess gender identity is just one of those complexities in human nature that places us on a higher level in the order of primates on this planet.

As Nichole said, I know what I am and that is what is most important to me. Too many years wasted chasing my tail already, I am happy with who I am. I have made peace with myself and my only desire is to teach others how to find this peace within in any aspect of coping in life.

Cindy

Sure, the article is a bit over the top, but there are also very real risks to hrt and surgery, and one should be aware of those risks before proceeding.

Regardless of whether someone doesn't go all the way doesn't make them any less trans. Someone who re-transitions isn't any less trans. I know the pain of disconnect of gender that I feel and it's all too real. Maybe I'm non-op TS (which I'm often told doesn't exist), maybe androgyne, maybe TG. I really don't care what it's called. Who I am doesn't change.

Z

Wonderful article... yes, that's sarcasm. It's really a perfect example of how someone can find statistics that fit with their own personal beliefs, and disregard anything that conflicts. Most of the statistics the author cited were outdated and biased, but hey, if it floats yer boat, why not?

The one good thing that might be gleaned from this is that you shouldn't let anyone else tell you to transition, or how to transition. I had a therapist at an ftm group tell me once I'd end up wanting all the surgeries and whatnot that "most ftms get"! Yeah. I have no interest in any sort of bottom surgery, and I know that won't change. It doesn't make me any less trans, or less of a man, nor does the fact that I still love romantic comedies and the color pink.

Know the risks, know yourself. And listen to your own instincts.

SD

I think that anyone today can find many resources to determine the "treatment" for gender dysphoria. The article didn't really change any of my ideas about transitioning. Having recently completed the process, I can say that I experienced many of the negatives mentioned in the warnings.  I think that had I been able not to transition, my life may have been less complicated.  I look at it like the treatment is only partially effective and that the side effects are serious and dangerous.  That doesn't mean that it was really optional for me. My problems are now external i.e. social, employment, family etc. Before they were internal and threatened to destroy me.  So I am still depressed and unhappy but for different reasons.  Was it worth it?  My answer is that so far, I am still here.  Untreated, I probably would have done myself in.

Maggie

Matilda

QuoteIn my case, not to transition would have meant certain death due to suicide; however, I am quite aware that it isn't so for everyone.

I quite agree, I was one of those who neededto transition at any cost and if I wanted to remain among the living there was no other way to go.

Unfortunately but fortunately as well I had already lost everything dear and close to me many years before I began transitioning. So for me I had nothing to loose and there was only one way out from the bottom of the pit I had dug myself into and that was up or end up horizontal at the bottom of the pit.

How do I feel today? never felt more normal, contents and at peace with myself and for once I feel like a woman with a purpose.

Like I have always said, beware of a person who has nothing to loose.

Cindy

exactly what i said 2 pages ago.

Quote from: Natasha on April 25, 2009, 08:07:35 AM
as you know, i'm one of those radical women that thinks that if a person is in fact transsexual, s/he will transition fully.  a transgender person may have more "options' but a ts doesn't.