Hi Girls,

My name is Deborah McCullough and I am a Gender Counsellor and Project manager and founder of 'Gender Essence Support Services' based in Northern Ireland. Apart from this role I also play a very significant role within the transgender communities in which I have a great desire and passion to help!

I recently posted a blog that I would very much like to share with you and I would be very grateful for your feedback on this issue.

The blog is:

I was at a Transgender training course today in Belfast to seek further insight to aid me in my work as a 'Gender Counsellor'.

It was delivered by a 'Dr' who has an immense amount of insight and experience (mainly within the transsexual field).

When he was explaining the difference between transsexualism and transvestism he had stated the difference being, Transsexuals don't have a choice in who they are, whereas ->-bleeped-<-s do (cross-dressers being referred to as the same thing). Also it is only used for sexual pleasure, with all.

Mmmmmm let me clarify that for you....'->-bleeped-<-s choose to be ->-bleeped-<-s' meaning that you can give it up at any time. 
Through my learning with various clients I firmly believe this is not the case. It is not a choice, it is a long term need.

I told him at lunch time that I didn't agree with what he had said. "My learning has been that Transvestism is 'a need, not a choice' and that his views only add to the negative stigma that trans people already have to face. Not all ->-bleeped-<-s are exactly the same, they take many forms and the time frame when each person feels the need to dress will vary. There are also different gains surrounding the desire depending on the person... to express the feminine side, to feel complete, to feel whole, to feel pleasure, inner calm, to de-stress, to cope with everyday life, sexual gratification, to fulfill an inner yearning (and / or) etc etc. Generally the desire to dress will come in waves.
It is not something that can be cured by therapy but over time it can be embraced and accepted".

When we went back into class he was more than happy for me to share my personal learning and to correct his black and white error. 

He is open to further learning of the subject and appologised for his ignorance and lack of understanding towards Transvestism. He has asked me to forward him further info on my learning as a counsellor.

I have searched a number of sites and I have yet to find something concrete from a 'professional trans organisation' that states my learning and understanding which has been gained from working with clients who feel endless negative emotions surrounding their desire to dress.

I would be grateful for some 'constructive feedback'. Thoughts, personal opinions / experiences, life stories, links etc. I will then forward all the views onto him (without names).

If you don't want to put it on the forums feel free to forward it to my Chix page.

I would be grateful for any insight you would like to share.

I feel it is important to 'set the record straight' in whatever form that comes in and what better way to do it than first hand views from those who live the truth....

Am I correct in what I say?

Has anyone ever 'truely' gave it up? 

If you feel the urge to dress can you simply 'choose' to pass....forever?

Personally to you, is it a choice?

I look forward to hearing your views ;-)

Hugs,

Deborahx

I have received numerious replies from one end of the spectrum to the other.

One of the many many replies that I received that has stuck in my mind read;

I could choose not to dress. But that choice would result in depression, anxiety,  and a general lack of a sense of personal fulfillment. For eight years I DID choose not to dress. And I hated it. It felt as though I'd lost a limb. I guess that the point that I'm trying to make is that a crap choice is still a choice of sorts .......

I replied.....

So it is still a 'need' people 'choose' not to dress with consequences, i get ya but even in your 8 years out you still had the desires, yearnings and inner conflict to dress. You were still a ->-bleeped-<-. People cant 'choose' to make those yearnings go away, regardless of there frequency.
Even though you wernt carrying out the 'act' you still had the thoughts and feelings that transvestism comes with. 
So is transvestism a 'choice' or a 'need'?

I would be ever so grateful for your thoughts.....

Hugs,

Deborahx

God, how I wish this was a choice.  To be able to turn it off.  I have tried so hard for 18 years to be "normal".  This has just led to depression, resentment, fear of being found out, having to watch everything that I say and do, and just overall being miserable.  My wife knew and has now left me with the kids so I still can't even express myself at home.  I guess being miserable will continue.  I don't know how much longer I can possible keep up the charade.  I partially dress on occasion when the kids go to bed but the fear and the stress never subside.  It is definitely not a choice because nobody in their right mind would ever make it.  I don't know if this helps but believe me it is the way so many peoples lives are. 

I can suppress it for maybe up to 4 months, but then it'd hit me again harder than ever. I'd just convince myself it's all over and then, bam, depression again.... for the past 4 years... *sigh*

It seems strange to me that this so called expert doctor had the views they had. But it was great that they were open to your disagreement.

I think you are correct.

I'm not a transsexual or a ->-bleeped-<- or a cross-dresser. But I am transgendered, I don't identify as being male or female but reject my birth sex, I can't stand being identified as such.

Long before I knew any of the words I knew that I felt wrong as a boy. I could not fathom why eveyone was following these 'gender rules', they still don't make much sense to me. I had good role models, my siblings turned out 'normal', there was no reason for it. It is just something that is. I don't get any particular sexual rush out of it (certainly when you feel good about yourself you also feel sexually much more confident. It is hard to feel sexual when you feel that you are revolting). My 'reward' for expressing myself is I feel comfortable and normal, sometimes it was exciting to be more like my inner self externally. What a rush, kind of like getting out chains you lived in for years. Of course, now that I live more or less as myself it is no longer a rush, it just is and going back is a world of pain.

I don't choose to be me anymore than anyone has. Even if I dressed as a boy I would still be who I am. The need is in needing to express who I am, otherwise I live in misery.

Another point of view to think about is why would anyone choose it? You would have to be out of your mind or be doing it for a very specific purpose (like Huckleberry fin). All you will get is negative things - you become a target for hate, a target for physical violence and verbal abuse, loss of relationships, rejection by family members, constantly assaulted by negative messages in the media, financial costs of extra wardrobe, burden of secrecy.. it just does not add up. The truth is the world can be pretty horrid to people like us, we are even horrid to eachother sometimes. If it were a choice, it is not a very attractive one.

Hi there,

I have read extensively on the subjec, well a) because i am transgender and b) I wanted to find out why I felt the way I did. here is my cents/pennies worth.

Transvestism grows out of puberty and the sexual desires. It is a form of fetish that stimulates sexual arousal. It is associated with the desire to dress in the opposite sex that, that one was born with because of the sexual arousal associated with the cross dressing. However true ->-bleeped-<-s don't feel that their is anything wrong with their bodies and hence want to change it, or feel they have been born in the wrong body.

transsexuals (I am) on the other hand feel that something is wrong usually from an early age that they are a girl despite all physical observations stating the opposite. The person who is a true transsexual has no choice over this and was born probably with the opposite brain configuration to that of their physical gender. For the Transsexual it is about gender, what gender they are and hence a need for physical change to match that of the psychological sex, etc. There is no sexual arousal from this.

In saying that there have been case studies where a person who has had ->-bleeped-<- desires move over time into the transsexual banding and as such feels they would only be truly happy living as the opposite gender.

So in saying all this I also believe that the ->-bleeped-<- does not have a choice and is compelled to cross dress. The reasons for this are different however than that of the person who is transsexual.

It is unhelpful to link the two together. I find it distasteful to be thought of as a ->-bleeped-<-, I am transgender. Gender dysphoria the medical term literally means gender unhappiness from the greek dyshoria meaning unhappiness. So its about gender not sexual arousal for those of us who are transgender.

I am sorry if this may upset some on here, I don't intend to upset anyone.     

Please feel free to PM me if you want to debs and we can email each other for more info. I live in the UK     

It is not a choice - the need comes and goes.

At the moment my need is just not there so I do not cross dress. I do however expect it to return some day.

I plan to update my story found at my wordpress site to tell why I have stopped HRT and have gone back to being a cross dresser.

Alice

I personally do not dress merely for sexual arousal. I actually want to be feminine to be a complete person. Yes it is a choice and I choose to. If I ignore that part of me I'll become one miserable "B....".

I've had to think about this for a while before responding.

Even if transvestism is only about sexual excitement, I would not say it's a choice. There was a time when I did cross-dress for sexual fetish reasons. It could be argued that I chose to dress in that manner, but I didn't choose to be sexually excited by the clothing. Likewise, I don't choose whom I find sexually attractive.

Cross-dressing no longer sexually excites me. It could still be argued that I choose to cross-dress from time to time. But, I did not choose androgyne as my gender identity. I might have chosen the label "androgyne" to describe my gender identity, but the label is not the identity in and of itself.

I would not say that cross-dressing for me is a "need." That word just doesn't seem quite right for me. For me, cross-dressing just seems natural. It just seems the proper thing to do for me.

It's not a need, and it's not a choice. But, I don't really know the best way to describe it.

Of course, sex is the ultimate cause of transvestism or crossdressing, IMHO. I think my desire to crossdress can be comparable to appetite. If necessarily, I can starve for 3 days, but still can survive. More than that, I would be very weak, even to die. If I do not crossdress for more than 1 month, I would still survive, but appetite and transvestism are the same in that they are a long term need, as you exactly described. Apparel is not a choice of life and death, but appetite is. Sex is not a choice of life and death, but still it is very important in our culture, mind and everyday life (look at the first chapter of the New Testament).

Sex is an interesting and sometimes intriguing thing. When people are sick or aged, they no longer feel sexual appetite. In my case, when my body is in unhealthy condition, my desire to crossdress and interest in fashion greatly diminishes (of course, other activities tend to decrease too such as research and playing outdoors with my kids).

Simply, crossdressing is beneficial to my physical and psychological health. I guess it is between hobby and destiny. Hobby is mostly a choice, but sometimes can be a need.

Barbie~~

Many thanks for your replies, it is much appreciated and I have found it to be fantastic learning.
I guess the over-riding rule is 'one size dosn't fit all'!! And neither it should! Labels can be a painful thing when we dont exactly fit into what society expects. The 'Definition' of a ->-bleeped-<- as I see it should be questioned.
I look forward to further replies.
I find this site to be great learning to aid me within my work as a Gender Therapist.
I will be sticking around ;-)
Hugs,
Deborah

Quote from: stardust on May 11, 2009, 04:07:10 AM
Hi there,

I have read extensively on the subjec, well a) because i am transgender and b) I wanted to find out why I felt the way I did. here is my cents/pennies worth.

Have you ever been part of support group where real people share their real experience? Their cents/pennies might be worth a few Euros/Dollars/Pounds

QuoteTransvestism grows out of puberty and the sexual desires. It is a form of fetish that stimulates sexual arousal. It is associated with the desire to dress in the opposite sex that, that one was born with because of the sexual arousal associated with the cross dressing. However true ->-bleeped-<-s don't feel that their is anything wrong with their bodies and hence want to change it, or feel they have been born in the wrong body.

Where did you read such rubbish? From the age of 3 (unless I had a very early puberty) I knew witch kind of clothes I wanted. It had nothing to do with sexual arousal but just about feeling right,  being free, being me. Talking to other CDs/TVs I also know that I am not the only one with such early memories.

Quotetranssexuals (I am) on the other hand feel that something is wrong usually from an early age that they are a girl despite all physical observations stating the opposite. The person who is a true transsexual has no choice over this and was born probably with the opposite brain configuration to that of their physical gender. For the Transsexual it is about gender, what gender they are and hence a need for physical change to match that of the psychological sex, etc. There is no sexual arousal from this.

So are you saying that Tranvestism or Crossdressing has nothing to do with gender, but only with sex and fetish?

QuoteIn saying that there have been case studies where a person who has had ->-bleeped-<- desires move over time into the transsexual banding and as such feels they would only be truly happy living as the opposite gender.

So the boundaries are not as clear as you would wish them to be. A bit confusing isn't it?

QuoteSo in saying all this I also believe that the ->-bleeped-<- does not have a choice and is compelled to cross dress. The reasons for this are different however than that of the person who is transsexual.

At last a bit of reason!

QuoteIt is unhelpful to link the two together. I find it distasteful to be thought of as a ->-bleeped-<-, I am transgender. Gender dysphoria the medical term literally means gender unhappiness from the greek dyshoria meaning unhappiness. So its about gender not sexual arousal for those of us who are transgender.

But of course it is so much more helpful to deny and even find distatful that CDism/TVism has anything to do with gender.

QuoteI am sorry if this may upset some on here, I don't intend to upset anyone.

So you can stand on judgement (using adjectives such as distateful) without having to take any responsibility for your confusion and the results of your spreading of erronous information.       

QuotePlease feel free to PM me if you want to debs and we can email each other for more info. I live in the UK   

With due respect, and luckily, as seen in Deborahx's testimony the level of debate about the different aspects of the specrum of TGism in the UK and this Island is much better informed that what you seem so far to have distillated from it.

Hope, Light, Love and Respect (for your quest)

Maebh

I personally feel that it is a choice, and that it is a sexually/fetish based choice.

-={LR}=-

Maebh,

Transvestism is by very definition sexual in nature hence its complete title of transvestic fetishism.

DSM IV Criteria:
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, in a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing.
B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Now if this doesn't fit you, then it doesn't.  You aren't (clinically at least) a ->-bleeped-<-.  I think the OP and stardust are referring to clinical definition of transvestic fetishism and discussing whether or not it is a choice.

The way you feel inside may not be your choice. What you choose to do about it is up to you 

Quote from: interalia on May 11, 2009, 08:33:33 PM

DSM IV Criteria:
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, in a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing.

6 months? That's very precise. What scientific criteria were used to reach this figure?

Quote
B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

That must be  A TERRIBLE AFLICTION! TSs don't know how lucky they are.

Quote
Now if this doesn't fit you, then it doesn't.  You aren't (clinically at least) a ->-bleeped-<-.

What a relief! 
But then what am I? 
Not a TS for sure since I am not interested in parting with my genitals. But to be truthful I must admit that sometimes I would love to have breasts. 
I must be a single freak with a very rare and yet unclassified and unlabeled desire and commitment to be myself in all his/her facets which compels me to transgress and transcend the rigidly imposed boundaries of genders roles and definition. Anyone else out there shares the "Maebh's syndrome"? 

Quote
I think the OP and stardust are referring to clinical definition of transvestic fetishism and discussing whether or not it is a choice.

I personally think strongly that Genevieve Swann's:

QuoteI personally do not dress merely for sexual arousal. I actually want to be feminine to be a complete person. Yes it is a choice and I choose to. If I ignore that part of me I'll become one miserable "B....".

and Deborah's:

QuoteNot all ->-bleeped-<-s are exactly the same, they take many forms and the time frame when each person feels the need to dress will vary. There are also different gains surrounding the desire depending on the person... to express the feminine side, to feel complete, to feel whole, to feel pleasure, inner calm, to de-stress, to cope with everyday life, sexual gratification, to fulfill an inner yearning (and / or) etc etc.

contributions are more encompassing and helpful to the understanding and  acceptance of the rich and varied tapistry of individual experiences of TGism than any other approaches based solely on an anachronistic narrowly fixated Freudian sexual one.

H.L.L & R

Maebh

PS. Deborah to answer your very pertinent question:
After thinking long and hard I have come to the conclusion that in my case Crossdressing is not a compulsion, that I have no control over, but more a need.
Of course I can choose to fulfill that need or not and then live with the consequences of such a choice: Happy and complete or miserable and bitter.
As Virginia Marie says:

QuoteThe way you feel inside may not be your choice. What you choose to do about it is up to you.

Gratitude, Love, Light & Respect

Maebh

Cross dressing doesn't have to be sexual or fetishistic in nature, but when it is not, it isn't transvestism.  Perhaps the OP can clarify.  Are you talking about cross dressing or more specifically transvestism?

Quote from: interalia on May 11, 2009, 10:18:46 PM
Cross dressing doesn't have to be sexual or fetishistic in nature, but when it is not, it isn't transvestism.  Perhaps the OP can clarify.  Are you talking about cross dressing or more specifically transvestism?

Well Interalia, after doing a bit of research I came across this on Wikkipedia:

"Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term transvestism (from Latin trans-, "across, over" and vestitus, "dressed") to refer to the sexual interest in cross-dressing.[1] He used it to describe persons who habitually and voluntarily wore clothes of the opposite sex. Hirschfeld's group of ->-bleeped-<-s consisted of both males and females, with (physically) heterosexual, (physically) homosexual, bisexual, and asexual orientations.]

Hirschfeld himself was not particularly happy with the term: He believed that clothing was only an outward symbol chosen on the basis of various internal psychological situations. In fact, Hirschfeld helped people to achieve the very first name changes (legal given names were and are required to be gender-specific in Germany) and performed the first reported sexual reassignment surgery. Hirschfeld's ->-bleeped-<-s therefore were, in today's terms, not only ->-bleeped-<-s, but people from all over the transgender spectrum.

Hirschfeld also noticed that sexual arousal was often, but not always, associated with ->-bleeped-<- behaviour; he also clearly distinguished between transvestism as an expression of a person's "contra-sexual" (transgender) feelings and fetishistic behaviour, even if the latter involved wearing clothes of the other sex.

After all the changes which took place during the 1970s, a large group was left without a word to describe themselves: heterosexual males (that is, male-bodied, male-identified, gynephilic persons) who wear traditionally feminine clothing. This group was not particularly happy with the term transvestism. Therefore, the term cross-dresser was coined. Nor do those self-identified cross-dressers have any fetishistic intentions. They simply enjoy wearing female clothing at times, and most admire, and imitate, women.

This group did - and sometimes still does - distance themselves strictly from both gay men and transsexual people, and usually also deny any fetishistic intentions. It was probably this development that led to the explicit definition of transvestic fetishism as distinctively different from transvestism.

However, when this group of people achieved public attention, most of the time not the word cross-dressing was used, but transvestism. That led, paradoxically, to yet another usage of transvestism: Today transvestism is sometimes used to describe specifically cross-dressing male-bodied, male identified, heterosexual persons. This group usually self-identifies as "cross-dressers".

Echoing the changing history of the term "transvestism", cross-dressing (but not cross-dresser) is now being used to describe the act of wearing clothing of another gender."

Does this help? Or does it muddy the waters even more?
Well am I a ->-bleeped-<- or a Crossdresser, or both or none? The curse of labels!

HLL&R

Maebh

Quote from: Maebh on May 11, 2009, 10:08:31 PM
6 months? That's very precise. What scientific criteria were used to reach this figure?

My guess is that a 6 month period differentiates from trying your girlfriend's panties on one night out of curiousity

Quote from: interalia on May 11, 2009, 10:18:46 PM
Cross dressing doesn't have to be sexual or fetishistic in nature, but when it is not, it isn't transvestism.  Perhaps the OP can clarify.  Are you talking about cross dressing or more specifically transvestism?

I am referring to either or. Transvestism and or Cross-dressing / crossdresser.
The chart that was shown by the Doc in class gave a clear divide.

On one side it read (exactly):
Transsexual Women MtoF, Transsexual Men Fto M, Intersex people.

On the other it read:
Androgyne people non-binary gender, Crossdressing people / Transvestism

The differences being, the first group dont have a choice whereas the the second group do (?)

(Many thanks for your input Maebh, your research is much appreciated!)

Hugs,

Deborahx

Quote from: Virgina Marie
The way you feel inside may not be your choice. What you choose to do about it is up to you 

Ditto. That's what I was trying to say, but I botched it.

Quote from: Maebh
But then what am I? 
Not a TS for sure since I am not interested in parting with my genitals. But to be truthful I must admit that sometimes I would love to have breasts. 

You're not a single freak, as I share some of this freakiness.

This has been a very enlightening thread for me. Before now, I was under the impression that most people see "->-bleeped-<-" and "cross-dresser" as be synonymous. I was aware that there was a distiction, but wasn't aware of the clinical distinction until now. If the DSM-IV is to be considered the authoritative text on this matter, than I appear to be a cross-dresser, and not a ->-bleeped-<-.