Dani and I were talking yesterday about some transition stuff and she said that she was waiting for me to be "ready" for her to proceed. She doesn't want a repeat of what happened last November when HRT was first discussed. Which was basically a large fight where I felt that I was being left out of things and that how I felt didn't matter. And I don't exactly want to repeat that either.

Dani says that some of the things I've said, such as "I won't know how I feel until you actually do it" make her think I'm not ready for her to do anything. I can see how she's interpreting it that way and I'm not blaming her for that. The problem is is that it's kind of like tasting a new dish. People can say "Oh! It's soooo good! It tastes spicy and lemony and etc." But you still don't know how it tastes until you try it and you may love it or you may spit it out and say it's the most vile thing you have ever tasted or you may say "it's not bad."

So my question is "how do I get ready"? How do I prepare myself to see my (physically) male spouse dress in women's clothes and wear makeup? How do I prepare myself for her to take HRT? Do I go look at crossdresser websites? Pr0n? Clinique? What?

I'm told there are no "roadmaps" for transition, but now apparently there's a spouse manual somewhere that is supposed to tell me how to get ready. I wish people would make up their minds on this.

WR

I'm not familiar with your particular situation, but I think you just have to start seeing her as female in your head. If you've never seen her dressed as female, ask her to do it.

Definitely what Nero said. If you haven't seen her dressed as female yet, that's the first step. The first time you see her will probably be uncomfortable for you. It especially won't help if she hasn't had any sort of guidance on presentation. You can help her with that. It can even be fun. 

Hypatia and I were friends for two years before she came out to me. She had been going out as female outside of work for quite awhile by then, but I didn't know what to expect the first time I saw her. To be honest (and she and I have since discussed this), it was a bit of a shock no matter how much I thought I had prepared myself. Also, she had been getting some bad advice from people. The very next week I gave her a makeover and, if I do say so, the results were much better.

It's kind of fun going back to the days of doing makeovers with friends. It's like being a teenager again, both for you and for her. Maybe that's one approach you can consciously take. That's sort of what I did, I think, but it wasn't conscious at first.

As for her starting hormones, that probably won't be too hard to adjust to as long as you're okay with the general idea of her being a woman. It seems like you okay with it in theory anyway. The first thing you'll notice is that she'll probably be happier. Physical changes take awhile, and by that time, you might be much more comfortable with it.

If you need a mental "escape clause," maybe you and she could agree that she can try it for a limited time with the option to discuss continuation. By then you will have had a chance to figure out more of how you feel about things and what you can and can't handle.

It sounds like you're both willing to meet each other halfway and that's wonderful.

Well, Dani asked me what I felt comfortable with a few weeks ago, and we reached a compromise of makeup and shoes to start. But now she doesn't want to get anything because she "gets the feeling" that I'm not ready. I don't know how to proceed. Maybe the whole outfit thing would work. I don't know.

I'm trying to be accomodating. It's just frustrating. It feels to me, that Dani's saying that if she can't go full time, HRT and all then there's no point. Or something. I don't know.

I never did the teenaged makeover stuff when I was a teen. When my peers were doing stuff like that, I worked. So I have no idea how to do makeup or anything like that. I can tell when it's *badly* done but don't ask me how to do it.

Thanks for the replies

WR

Sounds like she's scared.

It sounds like she's really nervous.  Maybe not just nervous of your reaction, but nervous of her own reaction.  What if she doesn't look pretty right off the bat?  What if nothing fits her right?  What if she walks out and the first thing she sees is an involuntary look of disgust on your face?  Etc etc.  There's a lot of fear involved in this.  And while you are definitely doing the right thing by being honest with her and honest about your own feelings- and you have the right to be ambivalent- it probably isn't making her feel secure enough to take the leap and do this.

Also, what if you do have a problem with it- would that mean she's not going through transition at all?  Or going through it without your blessing/happiness?  That could make her scared, too, like "I have to get it right, or else I'll never be able to be a girl" or "I have to get it right or else I'll never be able to be a girl and keep WR by my side."

It's hard for me to give advice on this since.. I'm gay, whenever I see my gf looking like my gf it makes me happy. The makeover thing is actually something I got really excited about myself, I would love to teach her the finer points of using makeup and stuff.  But if that's not the kind of person you are, that wouldn't work.

What kind of aversion do you think you might have?  Like.. do you think you need some exposure so that you're not as shocked?  In that case, it might actually help to look at some pictures online.  See the worst of the worst and get used to it, and then when you see Dani it couldn't possibly be that bad.  That might make things worse, though. It could go either way.

Or, if Dani agrees, you could watch her while she gets dressed and femmed up. Sorta see the change taking place in front of you might help it seem more flowing and easy, instead of a jolting, sudden change.

If she doesn't want you to watch her, she could come out with one thing on at a time.  Like, say she's putting on all feminine clothes and makeup.  First she comes out with the blouse on over her normal pants, then she adds the skirt, then the shoes, then she does the makeup.. again, so it's more gradual, and you can add each piece of information as you get it.  And then if there's ever a time where you feel uncomfortable, you can take note of when it was- is it seeing her in a skirt?  Seeing her with makeup on?  Or is it the effect as a whole?  And then you'll have a more specific area to 'work on.'

In any case, it could very well be that you're uncomfortable with a masculine-looking Dani wearing female clothes, but not a feminine-looking Dani wearing female clothes.  The whole man-in-a-dress thing.. when she dresses up, is that the image you get?  Maybe you'd have an issue with that, but if she was already on HRT and becoming more and more feminine, her wearing the clothes and actually being female would be easier for you to handle.  Less of a shock, because instead of thinking "that is my husband wearing a dress," you'd think "that is my wife wearing a dress."  Maybe it's too early for you to tell right now, but it's something to keep in mind.

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Post Merge: July 12, 2009, 12:11:21 PM

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Also, re: there being no point if it's not doing everything at once.. she may actually feel that way.  I do know that some people would rather not dress up if it's 'for no reason,' they'd rather not experience being in this halfway point because the halfway point isn't good enough.  It's all or nothing.  Why be a man dressing up like a woman and not doing a very good job of it, if you can just wait an extra year and then be a woman dressing up like a woman and experience everything the way it's supposed to be?  She might genuinely feel that way, in which case.. it will be difficult for you two to continue finding compromises.  She won't be able to be happy or comfortable moving as gradually as you'd prefer, and you won't be happy or comfortable moving as quickly as she'd prefer.  If that's the case then there's a lot of soul searching ahead.

We are desperately trying to stay together through this. I do love Dani. I don't want that to be lost here. I truly don't want to lose her and she feels the same about me. That's why I'm trying very hard.  I hope I haven't made her come across as shallow or uncaring, because she's not.

I can understand Dani being a bit scared. I am too. It's an unknown and therefore scary That's why I asked my question. I was at a loss to find ways to become more comfortable with things so I could give better answers than "I think I'll be OK."

I do appreciate all of the replies. You've given me some ideas and some stuff to think about.

WR

I'm terrified myself.. but I'm not afraid of transitioning, I'm afraid it'll become too much for my partner, or that I'll loose friends or relatives.. that sort of stuff..
It might be related.

Quote from: Windrider on July 12, 2009, 09:53:14 AM
Dani and I were talking yesterday about some transition stuff and she said that she was waiting for me to be "ready" for her to proceed. ...

and

Quote from: Windrider on July 12, 2009, 01:31:58 PM
Well, Dani asked me what I felt comfortable with a few weeks ago, and we reached a compromise of makeup and shoes to start. But now she doesn't want to get anything because she "gets the feeling" that I'm not ready. I don't know how to proceed. Maybe the whole outfit thing would work. I don't know.

and

QuoteDani says that some of the things I've said, such as "I won't know how I feel until you actually do it" make her think I'm not ready for her to do anything. ...

Hmmm, why is her idea that she is "waiting on you," I wonder?

One thing is certainly true of transition. It's about a willingness and readiness of the person themselves, the transitioner, to make whatever leap or step or plunge is necessary.

This sounds as if Nero is spot-on: she's scared. She, like so many of us in so many situations, wants to have some familiarity with something we are unfamiliar with. Alas, all the planning and thinking about and trying to make everything smooth beforehand appears to be a mostly vain and unsuccessful enterprise.

So, I can understand her fear. It's very understandable. But it's also a bit disingenuous to cite "your readiness" for her lack of step or leap or plunge.

There will be nothing, imo, that you will ever be able to do to make sure 1) that she is "ready" or 2) to make certain that you will be able to accept and love her in the same fashion you do now as time goes on, except to live and love as you do and accept your life (and she hers) as a constant "living into life."

I'm fairly certain that no one can do anything else. A person makes adjustments as they see the need and feel the desire to make the adjustments to new situations. Well, at least situations that are new to themselves.

QuoteSo my question is "how do I get ready"? How do I prepare myself to see my (physically) male spouse dress in women's clothes and wear makeup? How do I prepare myself for her to take HRT? Do I go look at crossdresser websites? Pr0n? Clinique? What?

Prolly the same way you got ready to be an adult, or got ready to be married or got ready to go into third grade after you'd completed second grade. You live your life and regard your feelings, all of them, about her process and your place in that.

It's not a matter of your feelings being the "correct" ones or that her's are either. It's a matter of you both recognizing your comfort levels with what she may do.

Would to Mother there were guarantees that hrt, body-image, learning to "fit" into the world that the other sex lives in and then being "successful" at negotiating those things and coming through one's transition with everything one wishes to be left intact to be left intact. Seldom if ever happens.

It's life's nature to continue to occur as we make plans for how we wish it would occur. Instead, perhaps the living of it and our recognizing the various ways that changes and differences affect us -- mentally, emotionally, spiritually -- and speaking and being aware of those is the best hope that any of us have.

QuoteI'm told there are no "roadmaps" for transition, but now apparently there's a spouse manual somewhere that is supposed to tell me how to get ready. I wish people would make up their minds on this.

O, there are always roadmaps for most everything. But even the best roadmaps cannot be walked or driven. For the walking or driving occurs on the road, not on the map.

For instance, as we were driving back from vacation along I-295 the other day we came across a traffic jam. More to the point we were at the back of it. The GPS was telling us to go 9.1 miles and exit at such and such a place to "get around" the traffic. Alas, to make that 9.1 miles was going to take us a couple of hours.

So, much to the chagrin of the GPS, we accessed one of those "Authorized Vehicles Only" strips and made an "illegal" u-turn and went back 1.5 miles to the last exit we had passed and took an alternate route. All the while the GPS told us to "make a legal u-turn" and proceed back to where she wanted us to travel.

Her "mind" had difficulty wrapping itself around the notion that we knew best and that she was unable to follow our logic. When we re-accessed the interstate we were about half a mile beyond the wreck that was causing the back-up.

That's the way our lives work as well. We take what steps we can to mitigate damage, but sometimes the "roadmap" is completely unable to define effectively the steps we have to take to make things better. And they could well have been worse -- the wreck  could have been over the next hill and we'd have done better to have waited in line and resumed speed after sitting in traffic for 20 minutes or whatever it would have taken to get around the wreck. That time we chose the right way to do what we wished. Not every time will we do that.

QuoteI'm trying to be accomodating. It's just frustrating. It feels to me, that Dani's saying that if she can't go full time, HRT and all then there's no point. Or something. I don't know.

She needs to "be accomodating" as well. And, imo, if she is going to transition needs to stop waiting for everything to be just so. Things happen, feelings and circumstances change constantly, and one must simply accustom herself to that fact. Accomodation is a two-way highway, not a single lane that runs only in one direction.

Quote from: Windrider on July 12, 2009, 04:01:56 PM
We are desperately trying to stay together through this. I do love Dani. I don't want that to be lost here. I truly don't want to lose her and she feels the same about me. That's why I'm trying very hard.  I hope I haven't made her come across as shallow or uncaring, because she's not.

No, she just seems scared and a bit, or a lot, unwilling at this point to take a look at what's scaring her and being direct and honest with herself and you about the hold-up. It isn't you. It's her own wish to make everything "perfect."

That's a nice idea and one I think we all want. But the fact remains that what we imagine to be "perfection" we often find isn't.

Will she be beautiful, suave and poised? Who can tell?

She can work at those things.

Will she "pass" 100%? There are methods to enhancing one's possibilities of doing so, but first one needs to go past her own fear of living life.

QuoteI can understand Dani being a bit scared. I am too. It's an unknown and therefore scary That's why I asked my question. I was at a loss to find ways to become more comfortable with things so I could give better answers than "I think I'll be OK."

Exactly! None of us ever know the unknown or are able to predict with certainty that we will be able to sail along the same course we have charted and want to go. Life happens, circumstances, feelings and beauty and abilities change and the best we can do is to cope.

Being able to say "I think I'll be OK." is, quite honestly, about the best any of us can do. Promising that we will stay or go regardless of whatever happens is romantic and wonderful sounding to frightened ears. Truth is, it's not the truth.

We make adjustments as we feel the need to do so.

I hope you guys make it. And the ideas you've been given seem pretty good ones. But a roadmap they are not and your "readiness," and her's, will only be as good as your willingness to make a success of both her transition and your marriage.

But can anyone gurantee that both will be successful? Well, you know that already, doncha? And so does she.

But, like you and she, I hope for the best for you both and for you as a couple as well.

But she and you both need to understand and clearly have this in front of you: her transition and making it are up to her, not you. You will have your own transition to follow in all of this. Transition for any of us is a fulltime thing. It affects others, but it's a singular walk through one's own life.

Nichole

O, there are always roadmaps for most everything. But even the best roadmaps cannot be walked or driven. For the walking or driving occurs on the road, not on the map.

True that, and the maps don't show the contours, the weather or where the best places to stop for lunch are.  And even the finest advice, the best GPS can be very wrong, depends on how it's set and all.  The standard advice may not be right for you.  The standard setting on a GPS will tell me to drive to Sacramento by going up over the winding two lane mountain road to Clear Lake.  What I know is that the best way to go North from here, is by first going South, and picking up the freeway.  More miles sure - not the straightest or most direct route, but its hours less time, and a lot less fatigue. 

Two people, each waiting for the other to 'be ready' can be stuck in the position for a long time, each waiting for the other to move first.

You could, or there are, virtual makeovers and clothing shops on the web that you could post her picture at and play with it and perhaps get an idea.

How about taking the baby step approach, that's what i been doing the last 8 months, start off with just some woman's jeans, they aren't that much different then Men's, then as both of you get comfortable add something more, like Reebok's, keep doing this till she is full clothed in woman's cloths.

It might take a month, several months or more and at any step you get uncomfortable take a step back for awhile then try moving ahead again.

I started doing this 8 months ago and i now wear nothing but woman's clothes, mostly jeans, shorts, blouses, nail polish and eye makeup, Reebok's or sandles everywhere i go. Everyone was eased into my transition. It might work for you too.

Paula