you can pass or are androgynous-looking.

At least that's my belief. Of course it blurs when you come to MtFs, because sometimes it's harder for you girls to pass, even with hormones and everything. But as a general rule, that's what I think. I just feel it's ridiculous to ask people for that when you can't really back it up. And sure, maybe it's not a big deal when it's simply a matter of switching a set of small words, but it's also switching how you view the person and interact with them.

Thoughts on the matter?

agreed.

I think you have the right to ask for correct pronouns of the gender your living fulltime as.

If my opinion counts for anything.

Sarah L.

I waited until all of my documents and name change were official and I had been on T for 3 months.  That was about the time I started passing.

I think you can ask at any time, but I do think it's harder for others to comply or remember when the visual doesn't match (ie it's harder for them to change).  New people who didn't know you ever as your previous self should be easier.


Jay

I disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.

I don't ask anyone to change their pronoun useage and certainly don't insist on it, though when I'm full time (IF!) I'm sure I'll be more concious of it.

But having said that, I don't think it's  someone else's business to tell me whAt I have the "right" to ask for either.

I think it would be better phrased if it was less "in your face"

QuoteI disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.

I agree, just because you don't look a certain way doesn't mean you can't be treated that way. A lot of the guys and girls here haven't yet started to transition, and some may never do so, but that doesn't mean they can't be accorded the pronouns they identify with if they request them. Just because you can't see something about someone doesn't mean it's not there. Just because you can't see that a person has a migraine doesn't mean you should continue treating them as though they're up for head-banging at a heavy metal concert - on the contrary, if they said "I have a migraine, would you mind keeping the noise down and closing the curtains?", you would (I'm assuming) respect their request and do whatever to help them. Same principle, just on a slightly grander scale.

I disagree.  You can ask whenever you feel ready to.  Coming out often comes before going on hormones, and for some people, passing isn't an option without hormones.

Also, even though I passed most of the time before going on T, to my friends who knew I was genetically female, they still saw me as female-looking simply because they knew that I was.  I wasn't passing in their eyes anyway, so the whole passing factor is pretty irrelevant.

I'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support.

You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.

Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.

But you can ask any damned time you want.

I have to agree with Alyssa, that's exactly my opinion on this issue too.

Re: You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until

Yes, I do. I have no fewer rights than anybody else. No fewer rights than a cisperson to basic respect. A transperson has every right to ask to be called by the right name and pronouns, whether they fit appearance norms for their gender or not. That doesn't mean people will respect that right. But then, passing perfectly and being completely post-op often doesn't guarantee basic respect from others either. How many people post-op people are suddenly treated to the wrong pronouns once people know their status?

I get the argument that it is easier on people to use the correct pronouns when one visually fits them. But we're not here to cater to the sensibilities of cispeople. We don't have to apologize for not meeting their standards. The world doesn't have to cater to us, but then they seldom do anyway.

QuoteI'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support.

You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.

Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.

But you can ask any damned time you want.

QuoteI have to agree with Alyssa, that's exactly my opinion on this issue too.

QuoteRe: You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until

Yes, I do. I have no fewer rights than anybody else. No fewer rights than a cisperson to basic respect. A transperson has every right to ask to be called by the right name and pronouns, whether they fit appearance norms for their gender or not. That doesn't mean people will respect that right. But then, passing perfectly and being completely post-op often doesn't guarantee basic respect from others either. How many people post-op people are suddenly treated to the wrong pronouns once people know their status?

I get the argument that it is easier on people to use the correct pronouns when one visually fits them. But we're not here to cater to the sensibilities of cispeople. We don't have to apologize for not meeting their standards. The world doesn't have to cater to us, but then they seldom do anyway.

Absolutely. The moment someone starts posting in the FtM section, for instance, that person is immediately addressed and referred to as "he", regardless of whether he's pre-op, post-op, non-op or whatever. As Alyssa and Nero said, if you request your correct-gendered pronoun from people when you don't look like a "typical" person of that gender, then yes, people may have difficulty complying 100% of the time without occasionally messing up, but that doesn't stop you from having every right to ask it.

One of the greatest issues we face is the ability to just be ourselves in the face of society's sometimes overwhelming and confronting prejudices, and being referred to as she, he, it (I know some people prefer that), ze, whichever pronoun, is just an extension of this right to being yourself.

Aside from having a "right" to it, being referred to as one's proper gender actually helps immensely, too, and can be (can be, not is necessarily) very helpful in determining how "right" someone is about their "transness". For instance, most of the time I am comfortable in the thought that yes, I am a transman (still dysphoric, obviously, but...at peace, perhaps, is better), but occasionally I still doubt, "Am I just being silly?", "Is it actually just a very long-lasting and rather delayed 'adolescent phase'?", but then I remember how exciting it was when one of my friends, without prompting, asked if I would prefer male pronouns, and how wonderful it is just to know that he'll use them in the future, and so being referred to as "he" etc. really does help me and my peace of mind with it all.

But, short answer, yes, I believe everyone has the right to be who they are, and be accepted and treated as the person they are, and the correct use of pronouns is just one aspect of that.

I think that you should do what helps you feel most comfortable. But you should ask in a respectful way. After all, you are asking them to respect you. Hopefully, with new acquaintances after your transition, you won't need to say anything.  It's a gradual thing.  Of course.... there's always the mom, dad, or other family member that will never give you the courtesy no matter how much time passes.

Cindi

Well, I personally am not even mentioning pronouns at this point.  That will change when I change.  However, I just don't see the point.  I don't want to make a lot of discomfort in the "social world" and although I feel like this "she" they are talking about is someone other than me, that won't be forever.  They know this, too.

But really, how others address you should matter less than how you address yourself.  If that makes sense.

I totally agree with Alyssa et al. I wouldn't refer to any of the FtM as female, that's insulting, and I wouldn't refer to any of the MtF's as male. If a shop as sistant etc refered to me as sir, at the least I would walk away, at the extreme I would slap the silly b***h across her face. If it was a guy I would say very loudly, "You want me to give you a ->-bleeped-<-!! Yuk" (a bit of humour here)

I think the main place pronouns seem to get mixed up is in the Armed forces; seems a lot of drill sargents have the mistaken notion that many of their male recruits are female; as they seem to refer to them as ladies, at least in the movies.

Respect and politness are what makes society work.

Just look around you neighbourhoods were respect and politness have disappeared. You really want to live there?

Cindy

Quote from: Matilda on August 03, 2009, 08:40:12 PM

It's a load of tosh!  You can ask anytime you wish.  If they don't comply, you cut them out of your life immediately and for good, and voila, problem solved.

That's a lot of bargaining chips you've got there. People take time to adjust to things, like "I'm marrying the woman you hate", "I'm pregnant", "I'm dropping out of school", "I'm changing my gender" etc. While we've come very, very far along when we get to the point where we're willing to confront people about pronouns... it's often new to them. "By the way mom I'm a girl and if you don't call me her you can kiss my ass and rot in a nursing home" is not going to get you very far.

Quote from: Adrian on August 04, 2009, 03:46:45 AM
Well, I personally am not even mentioning pronouns at this point.  That will change when I change.  However, I just don't see the point.  I don't want to make a lot of discomfort in the "social world" and although I feel like this "she" they are talking about is someone other than me, that won't be forever.  They know this, too.

But really, how others address you should matter less than how you address yourself.  If that makes sense.

I answer to both pronouns. Back when I was trying to pass as a boy I'd try to correct people but it just got too old. On the phone I'm almost always ma'am'ed, or I get sir'd and then correctively ma'amed. In person it varies between being sirred, man'd, ma'amed, a blank look of confusion in place of the pronoun, etc.

My presentation is androgyny, I will take either for now. According to the therapist I saw, there's nothing androgynous about me - but I'll believe that when the ma'ams twice outnumber the sirs.

I will admit that one time when I actually went out trying to pass (bra, tank top, purse, etc) and my ex and I went to get our brows done and the stylist kept calling me sir... was very uncomfortable and damaging. I didn't have it in me to start a scene though, it was in the middle of a crowded mall. Bad experience. 

Of course, she was very foreign and they charge men more for their brows than women, and she was otherwise nice and complimentary to me, so... meh. It's funny, usually you get charged more for services as a woman.

Thank you for a great question!

I think you have the right to ask any time you feel comfortable with doing so.  This is a different matter than demanding, however.  If you demand, then you start naming consequences.  some never need to do that, and some just do it for spite.  This is very personal.  But ask any time you feel good about doing so.

Kristi

I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this.  We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.

As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot.  And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck?  C'mon!  If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part.  'Til then, don't expect it.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on August 04, 2009, 01:35:46 AM
I'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support.

You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.

Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.

But you can ask any damned time you want.

Gotta agree here. 

You can ask anything you want.  You can expect anything you want.  But what you get back is what you put in. 

I would have felt ridiculous asking anyone to refer to me in the female if I didn't make an effort to present as such.  And it would have not surprised me one bit if the response I got back was a laugh.

There are certain expectations to presentation when gender is an issue.  A gender queer person once told me "I prefer 'ze' to be used as a pronoun when referring to me."  That solves ze's problems. 

We still live in a binary society and it's not going to change overnight.  While one may present as one gender but ask to be referred to as the other gender, that person has to have realistic expectations based on the knowledge we all have today regarding gender and presentation. 

If you wanna be called miss and you're sounding like James Earl Jones, don't expect a lot of cooperation from the masses.

Julie

I never actually asked anyone to use a specific pronoun. Many have been kind enough to use he and I thanked them for it. they have repeated it since.

A funny story tho regarding optometrists office. One lady kept correcting others to call me she even with a male name and presentation. I looked right at the one who originally spoke and who had called me sir, and said, "You had it right the first time." She said Thank you quite loudly, glared at the one correcting her, and went on her way.