Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 11, 2009, 11:52:26 PM
I also work retail as a cashier.  The only real negative comments or reactions I get is that people ignore me and just refuse to acknowledge me in any way.  A good, bad comment I have gotten was to be called a "Bitch". 

There has been customer complaints against me, so I am told,  But I never have been told what those were, so they don't count.

And many customers call me by name as any friend would.  And a couple worry if I am not at work.  They always ask me why, because they missed me.  And they remember that reason, and ask after it if it was a problem.  I know I will be quized by them went I return, because of my back.

Janet

Of course your customers miss you when you're not there. A sweet woman like you, Janet. Pfffft, duh. 

The way I see it, if there's a part of who you are that you are hiding, then you've at least got a foot in the closet.

As in, it's not about what you got, it's about what you conceal.

Quote from: Matilda on August 10, 2009, 07:34:29 PM
Based on the quote above, Julie, I'd say that you're absolutely spot on.  However, I must warn you that I am being very biased .  I started transition and HRT in my late teens; I never developed completely as a "boy".  I'm only 5' 6 1/2", weigh 125 lbs, and don't have a typical "male" body structure.  My voice is passable, and I haven't had any problems assimilating as my true gender in any way, shape or form.  I have been lucky, I know.  I'm sure that some people won't hesitate one bit to call me "privileged". 

Also, I have never been married, don't have any children, and didn't have any kind of "baggage" when I transitioned.  I was just a kid out of high school that had nothing.  There's no "previous" employment history, no "old" college records, no "former" friends, or anything that links me to my past.  Everything I am today I have accomplished as female/Matilda.  How can I be so sure that there isn't anything from my past floating around? Because a few years ago, I hired a private investigator and asked him to investigate me, and he couldn't find anything at all.  It was an expensive investment, but it needed to be done (just to be on the safe side).  So yes I agree, "stealth" is not possible for everyone, but there are a few of us who are.

Ah... but did this private investigator have access or did they gain access to your medical records?  Those things can't be changed.  In the US and Canada their respective governments keep track of the folks associated with Social Security Numbers.  In Ontario Canada the Ministry of Transport maintains a file on you that also lists changes in names and gender.

I would respectfully suggest that the investigator didn't do a very thorough investigation.  But that's just my opinion.

-={LR}=-

Working in retail Janet... Oh so then you "know"...
Know that people are asses to EVERYONE and to never take it as a transgendered issue or as a personal insult.

People suck.

Hugs~

Quote from: Nichole on August 11, 2009, 09:24:22 AM
One hopes that when one reaches her late forties, early fifties, that that good bone-structure from her youth will not have become layered with concretations that change how she looked in her twenties and thirties to something that fairly screams "ex-male." I know some women pretty well who had that experience and found it devastating for them as they had imagined never having to speak about their pasts and found that they were being sirred. Others, not so much. And in the event there's Jeff Spiegel, Doug Osterhout (for another year or two) and Mark Zukowski.

Oh and Nichole, I was so disheartened yesterday after reading your post that I took the liberty to call my therapist who, by the way, has a combined specialty in psychiatry and endocrinology plus 25 years of experience treating people born transsexual.  (90% of her patients are MTF).  I figured, if there's anything to know, she's the right person to ask, so I did.  She said that in her 25 years of practice, she has come across a few patients who actually complained about "not passing" after having done so for many years.  However, there were other major factors that influenced their change in physical appearance:

- Age (as you said).  These patients were over the age of forty and had started HRT in their late 20's.

- They were pre-operative (pre-SRS/pre-orchiectomy)

- Their HRT doses had been reduced due to age and other health concerns. (i.e. Thrombophlebitis)

or

- They had been switched from the pill to the skin patch.

Of course, none of you is under any obligation to believe what I have just said, but you can always ask your endocrinologist or medical doctor to verify this information.  Thanks Nichole for bringing this to my attention.  I'm sure that it has not only been a real eye opener for myself but also for the many young people who frequent this board.

Well as one old broad,  I'm just me.  Not steath as most folks figure out that I may not have always been Blond.  Ok I'm a big boned chic who on a good day might pass well, anywhere else that is but the bay.  But I've not had any nasty problems just being me.  The people where I live (well most anyway) know I'm trans, but they treat me as a woman.

So I'm not in the closet and not out and proud,  I'm just living the best way I can.

Beni

I walk a line .....

In my own personal life, I live in stealth.  But I will carry the baggage of testosterone for the rest of my life. My voice isn't all that great when I'm not concentrating on it.  I'm tall and I have broad shoulders.  Frankly, I can't imagine how I get by at all.  But for some reason I do.... perhaps it is in my on stage presence, which is totally natural FWIW.

My family life is shot to hell.  My children want nothing to do with me.  I still maintain a relationship with my parents, brother, and sis.  My sister is the only one that thinks of me as "female" in that small group. I haven't spoken with any of my extended family for over two decades.

Cindi

I'm currently in the process of moving from TN to Australia (I am in Sydney right now, making preparations for my eventual move) and no one here other than my SO knows me as anyone else nor will they ever. Here in Oz, I'm just another woman in the crowd. Lots of tall girls here. When I get my permanent residence visa, it will be as a female.

I lost touch with just about everyone from my old life years ago and I doubt if any of them would even recognize me now anyway. My family has been pretty accepting so far but I refuse to be in any closet regardless, so if someone knows or suspects I really could care less- it hasn't impacted my life in the least. I have not been called "sir" in a long time, even when not wearing makeup and dressed in old jeans and t-shirt.

I'm very far from "having it all" for a fact, but I'm self employed and make a decent living, own my own property, have friends and family who accept me as I am, and surprisingly "stealth" just hasn't been an issue so far. I'm probably about as stealth now as I'm going to get in any case I reckon, and it's enough for me.

Fairygirl, that is an excellent attitude. I always wanted to see and maybe live in Australia. I wish you the best.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 10, 2009, 04:10:04 PMOf course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

and if out of necessity I dress but not exactly look the part of "the dad" my kids always call me . . .


lol 'cause my kids and I certainly don't!

Being 'out' means not trying to 'kid' anybody, least of all yourself! Am i a 'male' who thinks he's a girl? NO! Rather a parent, a alleged 'girl role model' who otherwise knows she is not stupid and was born and socialized male! It is more about 'being' than 'becoming' somebody or something else your not, i've spent the majority of my life thinking i'm a 'fraud' and i'm positively not gonna do that anymore!

I think this is where there is a big difference with regards to ones age and past experiences.  Folks who transition younger tend to have very different experiences then those who transition older. Those who are younger often obtain a degree of stealth without really trying, more or less it just happens.  I have noticed this with my own personal life.  My boyfriend knows who I am, but we live together, but he has only known me as a woman.  The truth is I was not seeking stealth, stealth just happens to be an evolving part of my life.   I have a pretty good voice and my frame tends to be rather feminine (though not perfect).  I have a boyfriend, and a job where nobody knows about my past.

I am not clawing at stealth, like many younger transitioners, it just sort of happened. 

I am not going to comment on older trans women, but I have noticed I have a hard time relating because my experiences seem radically different.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 12, 2009, 11:54:13 PMBut I will carry the baggage of testosterone for the rest of my life. My voice isn't all that great when I'm not concentrating on it.  I'm tall and I have broad shoulders.  Frankly, I can't imagine how I get by at all.  But for some reason I do.... perhaps it is in my on stage presence, which is totally natural FWIW.

Kinda of sounds like me, except the tall part.  But Julie and I have concluded if you're with mainstreamers (straight), their radar isn't tuned to go there.  They just accept what they see. 

Sometimes I'm blown away when I interact with people and they treat me as they would any other woman.  I'm asking myself, "Is he blind?" but then I figure his mind just won't go there.  And even though I pass, I hate it because I'm putting on a show.  It's an act.  The real me is a hybrid, conditioned to be male, physically male (except what I changed thru HRT & surgery) and a female brain (persona).  And even though that description sounds weird, I like who I am.

There are two couples in the neighborhood we've been out with and have been over to their places.  They are both straight and could be considered mainstream, except neither couple has a single problem socializing with us and calling us their friends.  When I'm with them the only thing I stay conscious of is my voice.  A Barry White voice coming from my mouth is a bit distracting, to say the least!  Other than that, I'm totally me, just like I am with my trans friends.  When I'm out in public I turn it up a notch or two because history tells me if I don't the funny looks start up.

But if I didn't have to contend with discrimination, or worse, I'd just as soon as always be the person Julie (my fiance) knows and loves.

Hang on, I'm trying to pull my foot of the closet but it seems to be stuck! 

Julie

Quote from: Nichole on August 13, 2009, 08:35:38 AM
Yes, and I think you'll find as well that when and if you have children that they'll have that same problem with you. Generational differences are ... well, generational, normally. Mommy never got used to the idea that jeans were popular and worn pretty much universally.

Thats the thing, I am never going to have children. Adoption is not something I am into. 
And while some things I can chalk up as being generational...some things are not really.

Quote from: sweetstars on August 13, 2009, 08:44:20 AMThats the thing, I am never going to have children. Adoption is not something I am into. 

Aye! Viva le difference! You'll find decisions and choices are never ending and a direct function of experience & age! You'll probably never know the joy & heartbreak that comes from being a parent but that's ok because many are just not cut out for that sort of thing anyway! Hopefully you won't ever find yourself in the position of having regrets over too quickly cutting your ever dwindling (bad word choice sorry!) xchanging life choices up short (as that is life and I 'ave none!) . . .

'cause when I was just beyond being a relative child myself gotta admit I didn't really think about ever having any kids either (and wouldn't trade them now for a transition or anything ever!)

In the meantime I simply LOOK FORWARD to the day when I can be completely out in the sense of perhaps dressing like and seeing who I want but there's no hurry really 'cause i am who i am already (and the people who are important and close to me already know it)!

I need to get back to this thread when I have more time.

Quote from: Nichole on August 13, 2009, 08:55:47 AM
I believe in this thread, Northern Jane mentioned that when she transitioned in 1974 that the only way one could get approval for transition was by being thought both able and willing to be what you refer to as stealth. Times change and attitudes change. 

Yes.  It isn't so much a generational change as it is a change in the society we live in.  Back in the 70s and 80s (and earlier) you had to go stealth or become a performer or a prostitute specializing in really kinky people because society just wouldn't accept that you could be both a transsexual and a decent human being.

But times have changed and continue to change.  In many places stealth is no longer necessary.  Now it seems many people can know you are trans and still accept you as a valid human being - a little odd perhaps, but very much like them in most ways.

The people who transitioned in an earlier era, who are so completely devastated when they are "found out" are that way because they had to go stealth to survive, and they still have that mindset.  As society becomes ever more accepting of us, and as we understand and expect that acceptance, we become protected from that utter devastation.

"Oh, you used to live as a man?  Was that when you lived in Germany?  What was it like to live in Germany? ..."

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on August 13, 2009, 07:36:24 PMBut times have changed and continue to change.  In many places stealth is no longer necessary.

I wish I knew a time and place like that! I get tired of dating, becoming 'emotionally invested' in someone and being dumped when I mention my childhood.

Maybe I need to drop all aspects of stealth, but then where does one meet nice guys? Gay guys aren't interested in women and straight guys aren't interested in a woman who wasn't born pure unadulterated bimbo! (Sorry!)

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 13, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
I wish I knew a time and place like that! I get tired of dating, becoming 'emotionally invested' in someone and being dumped when I mention my childhood.

Maybe I need to drop all aspects of stealth, but then where does one meet nice guys? Gay guys aren't interested in women and straight guys aren't interested in a woman who wasn't born pure unadulterated bimbo! (Sorry!)

Amen to that. It's the same with women, I've found. The straight ones don't want a woman, and the lesbians don't want a woman who wasn't born...well, you see where I'm going. Thank Goddess for bi women or I would have to become a nun!

This may look like my first post but I spent a lot of time here in 2004-5 during my transition.  During my transition, I had no real intention of going stealth, largely because I didn't think it was possible.  Then I went to Mark Zukowski and got a new face.  I am 5'6", 140 pounds, and slight so I pass well.  I developed a great voice.  To strangers, I pass 100% of the time, even on the phone.  Suddenly, stealth seemed possible and so I was stealth whenever possible. 

But as a late transitioner, I had friends, a business, too many contacts, and many other things that would occasionally pop up during the day.  I developed a second career as a musician and there, I was stealth because I had quit playing years before so I had zero history in the local music scene.  In effect, I developed a double life, unavoidably out during the day, stealth by night.  I began to live in fear that something would happen to blow my cover.  Eventually some of my clients saw me out at night and word got around.  As it happened, nothing was said, nothing happened.  People evidently knew but it became an unspoken subject, at least around me.  I was always addressed correctly as miss or ma'am.  I should be quite happy.

As it turns out, I'm not.  I don't know who knows and who doesn't.  I have recently realized that by trying to construct this second stealth world, I had simply exchanged one prison for another (closet is really too tame a label).  To wrap yourself in untruths and half-truths, you end up in a prison of your own making.  To be stealth is to have no history unless you lie or embellish.  I wish I was proud of what I am but I am not.  I am a woman so to acknowledge that I was once male is cut I can scarcely stand.  I hate that I was ever male.  I guess I now see my attempts to be fully stealth partly a refusal to deal with who and what I am. 

The problem is mostly in my head.  I have had a very successful transition in that I kept my spouse, kids, family, job.  Yes, the transition was hell, but I survived.  I should be happier than I am.  If other people can accept me, why can't I?

Years ago one of my good friends was a gay man.  He said at one point he just decided that he could live his life as if no one knew he was gay, or he could live it as if everyone knew he was gay.  He decided to go with the second choice.  He was a very open, funny, happy person who sometimes would get crap from some idiot.

I've always remembered what he said.  It took me another 10-15 years to come out of my own closet, but when I was finally strong enough I wanted to be open with everyone - for me.  Now I just assume everyone knows I'm trans (or CD or whatever ) and am delighted with how people treat me.

As for romantic relationships...   I'm too early in my transition and was too badly burned by my last one to worry about any of that yet.  But a cute guy kinda chatted me up last time I was in Oregon...

- Kate