Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 22, 2009, 11:36:40 PM
But the hostilities must stop.  Fighting amongst ourselves will only give fuel to our opponents.

IMO that is the #1 problem within the trans population.

Quote from: Zelane on September 22, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

I don't see any rage. A guilty conscious being defensive, maybe, but rage, no.  To me it looks more like the few who are compelled to do something and the many who aren't.  You can look at almost every discriminated against group in society and you will see a few pioneers leading the way and getting the issues heard by lawmakers.  The masses who will benefit usually don't join in until they feel it's safe.  Human nature, I guess.

What this thread, and others like it, does highlight is there is a real fear out there to being exposed.  CDs, TGs, TSs, it doesn't matter, almost all will fight to keep the fact they are TG hidden.  And that just screams to me how negative the TG stigma is today.  Even members of our community will argue until they are blue in the face they are not TG so as to disassociate themselves from the stigma.  And until that stigma is gone, we can expect that sad fact to remain.

Regardless of the stealthness,
We were all born trans and we will die as women who were born trans.
Not everyone has to live their life out and be an activist.
People who transition young and manage to blend tend to live in 'stealth' which is understandable
because life in stealth is smooth. And late transitioners who can't get away with it have to live 'out' so they manage their life accoring to that. It's just the way things are, its not about which one is morally right or better. We are all individuals and diverse. Everyone has their own circumstances.

I live stealth and do not interact with the local trans community other than quietly helping a few women in transition.

I don't see myself as trans but as a woman.  I don't reveal my past, not because I worry about any discrimination but because I find my life as a male so embarrassing and painful that I don't ever want to talk about it much less acknowledge that I ever lived that way.  I refer to it as my "past life".  Some people know of course; regardless, it is something I never talk about, even with them.

Sorry, I don't feel I owe the trans community.  I was active while in transition but I'm done now and feel I've paid my dues. 

None of us see ourselves as anything but women, that's why we go through so much so we can make the most of it and lead a happy life to whatever extent we can achieve. But it doesn't change the facts, we are not genetic women, we were not born with ovaries, we do not get periods or go through labour. We are women indeed and it is an embarassing situation to mention past for all stealthy women but we can't deny we are trans women, that's what brings us together to even get on this forum and reply to this topic. We can't pretend like what happened to us at birth never occured unless our families raised us as girls from a very early age, our common experience leave a big impact on our minds to last a lifetime. None may know but in the back of your mind, you always will. We are not just any women, we are women with a different past but it comes with its own baggage of issues like minor differences in genitalia (post-op), lack of reproductive system, fertility issues. We can stay away from the community, yet we always have these issues mentioned to deal with and it makes it hard for women to have long term relationships with heterosexual men and settle down. That's why it's good to not forget who we are and support each other.

One of the things that bother me the most is the implication that the only way to be "successful" is to live in stealth.
That acknowledging your past is somehow a sign of being unable to pass as your gender. Or unwilling to give up on your birth-sex.
That somehow, you're not a "true" transsexual unless you completely deny everything that ever happened while you were the wrong sex.

I have a big family, I have good friends, I have people all around me that know that I wasn't born with the right equipment, and I'm transition in a small town in a small country and this town, and this country, are my "home", not just a place I'm in, it's home.
In order for me to go completely stealth, I would have to move, cut ties with people I love, and pretend that over a quarter of a century of my life was different, or didn't exist.

From my perspective, it's asking too much.

And I resent the suggestion that I'll never be "successfully" male unless I do so.

I transitioned in a small town where everyone knew me, totally out in the open. I can certainly understand a persons' reasons for being stealth, if I hadn't cared about keeping my chosen career, I would have been very tempted to move somewhere else and start anew.

I respect everyone's right to make their own choices. What I don't like is someone else presuming to tell me how to live my life.

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on September 28, 2009, 11:27:19 AMI respect everyone's right to make their own choices. What I don't like is someone else presuming to tell me how to live my life.

well said.

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 11:07:21 AM
One of the things that bother me the most is the implication that the only way to be "successful" is to live in stealth.
That acknowledging your past is somehow a sign of being unable to pass as your gender. Or unwilling to give up on your birth-sex.
That somehow, you're not a "true" transsexual unless you completely deny everything that ever happened while you were the wrong sex.

I have a big family, I have good friends, I have people all around me that know that I wasn't born with the right equipment, and I'm transition in a small town in a small country and this town, and this country, are my "home", not just a place I'm in, it's home.
In order for me to go completely stealth, I would have to move, cut ties with people I love, and pretend that over a quarter of a century of my life was different, or didn't exist.

From my perspective, it's asking too much.

And I resent the suggestion that I'll never be "successfully" male unless I do so.

I don't think that anyone has said that in order to be successful one has to be stealth, and if anyone did they would be talking out their butts.  Stealth is very near impossible as there seems to always be a friend of a friend of a friend who comes back to haunt you.  Similar to Zythyra case, I transitioned in a small city, in the workplace so there was no way in hell that I could be stealth, but I'm very successful, hold a full time job as a safety manager that puts me daily contact with clients who knew me in the before times, I have a large circle of friends, belong to a large MC Club, and I'm engaged to be married to a most wonderful man.  Yep I'm successful, but I ain't stealth.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on September 28, 2009, 12:14:55 PM
I don't think that anyone has said that in order to be successful one has to be stealth, and if anyone did they would be talking out their butts.  Stealth is very near impossible as there seems to always be a friend of a friend of a friend who comes back to haunt you.  Similar to Zythyra case, I transitioned in a small city, in the workplace so there was no way in hell that I could be stealth, but I'm very successful, hold a full time job as a safety manager that puts me daily contact with clients who knew me in the before times, I have a large circle of friends, belong to a large MC Club, and I'm engaged to be married to a most wonderful man.  Yep I'm successful, but I ain't stealth.

-={LR}=-

And yet, I see it all the time. The suggestion that stealth = success.

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
And yet, I see it all the time. The suggestion that stealth = success.

Ya kinda strange, not sure why they think that, but I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not successful because I'm not stealth.

If stealth = success then conversely being out = failure, and that just doesn't add up.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on September 28, 2009, 03:32:51 PM
Ya kinda strange, not sure why they think that, but I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not successful because I'm not stealth.

If stealth = success then conversely being out = failure, and that just doesn't add up.

-={LR}=-

Which would be why I think it's annoying at the very best.

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding here.  While it would be great for each and every TG in the world to come out and proudly be who they are and eventually end the negative stigma, I realize that just ain't gonna happen.  It's like standing at the edge of chilly waters with a bunch of friends and suggesting we all go in for a dip.  "You go first and I'll jump in after you."  Yeah, sure!  Unless you feel compelled to jump in, you're not going to be the first.

But that doesn't mean anyone is trying to tell anyone else how to live their life or that it's wrong to try to be stealth.  It's your life, live it as you wish.  What I do see in people trying to understand the aversion some have to the TG population in general.  Typically you see that coming from those who claim to be stealth.

No matter how you slice it, total, 100%, "no one knows my history and no one could ever guess" stealth is almost impossible and therefore it is in everyone's interest to do something to eliminate the negative stigma.  You don't have to be an activist but it helps not to dissociate yourself from the community. 

In some countries, if you aren't fluent in their language you will experience discrimination.  You may know the language perfectly but there's little tells that give it away you are not native.  It's the same with gender.  It just seems to me it's a lot easier to erase the negativity than to try to pass yourself off as native.

Yes, our brain gender is who we are but that does not change what our birth gender is and never will.  So why fight it?  Why deny it? (to yourself)  I just don't get it.  It seems there's a lot of wasted energy trying to change something that cannot be changed.

Julie

Quote from: ceili on September 21, 2009, 08:03:57 AM
I choose to be out, for reasons I've explained elsewhere on this board, but will explain again. First, I have small children who have two Mom's so we're already known to be part of the "LGB" population, second because I want to educate people, and third, because I just don't really care what people think. (A little conflict between 2 and 3, but I try to find a balance).

Anyway, I have found, and not just on this forum but on others and IRL, that being out is looked down upon, and worse, there are some who are stealth (well, they think they are) who are very hostile toward those of us who are not.

What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously. It amazes me how people who work so hard to be accepted and not be judged based on who they are and decisions they make, themselves turn right around and criticize others for what they do and the decisions they make. The ultimate in hypocrisy.

On another, totally non-tg related message board, I called out a person who was disparaging transgender people, even making the "freak" and "it" references. I then find out that this person is, herself, transgender. She won't own up to it publicly, but after a PM exchange admitted she had been "born with a birth defect and had it corrected." Well, yeah! That's how I look at it too, but I don't go around acting like I know nothing about what it is to be transgender and trashing those who come up behind me. This is someone who claims on another site where she has posted as recently as 2007, that she has been fulltime since 1980. This is a person who has said some of the most vile and hateful things against me and transgender people in general that I've ever heard or read.

I just don't get it. I can understand wanting to blend in with society and not reveal your past, but I don't understand the vile vitriol and disdain for those who choose not to do the same.

As an aside.... If you're going to be "stealth," trash those who are where you came from and adamantly deny that readily available evidence outing you is you, at least do a better job of covering your tracks... 

First off you should realize there are alot of folks who transition who do not identify with, nor do they want any part of the word transgender.  The disparaging comments...are troubling.  But my advice is to never call somebody who transitioned transgender, unless they identify that way themselves.  I AM NOT transgender.  I transitioned, and I was born intersex.  There is a rightful rebellion over the term transgender.  I am on the side of either seperating it from people who have (or plan too) transition, ie transsexuals and intersex transitioners from the term transgender and the far to broad umbrella associations.  The term has become too broad, including my medical condition in the same boat as people who identify with thier assigned birth sex..is problematic.  I am not transgender, and you should not call anybody transgender if they transitioned, unless they identify as such.  But if they don't identify with the term, don't identify them with the term transgender.  Transgender is a political term, and one has to chose whether they want to identify with it or not, whether or not they had transitioned.  With that being said...if one transitions, that does not automatically make them transgender.  You even saying the person was transgender when they did not identify as transgender, but instead they are a woman with a birth defect that needed to be corrected, bothers me just as much as the crap the other person said.  There was a problem on both of your parts.

Transgender does not equal Transsexual automatically.  If you are finding hostility it should not be surprising, and they have every right to be hostile towards the umbrella terminology and associations.  One has every right not to be wanted to be associated with CD, Drag performers, and TV if they have fully medically transitioned. 

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 05:17:33 PM
Which would be why I think it's annoying at the very best.

At the very least

-={LR}=-

Quote from: sweetstars on September 29, 2009, 09:01:16 AM
Transgender does not equal Transsexual automatically.  If you are finding hostility it should not be surprising, and they have every right to be hostile towards the umbrella terminology and associations.  One has every right not to be wanted to be associated with CD, Drag performers, and TV if they have fully medically transitioned.

This is a very good point.  I feel no kinship with CDs, drag artists, and TVs.  I respect their right to live the way they do but I don't want to be lumped with them in the gender discussion.

Other posters have mentioned the stigma of being trans.  I don't think all of us being out and proud is going to change a deeply held tribal norm--ie, the separateness of gender.  What might reduce the stigma somewhat is removing TS from the DSM and making it a legitimate medical condition. 

The brain is the seat of being.  I have a female brain, therefore, I am female.  End of subject.  I really could care less what my DNA says.

Healthy view?  I don't know for certain but that is the world view I live with.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 28, 2009, 05:52:09 PM
It's like standing at the edge of chilly waters with a bunch of friends and suggesting we all go in for a dip.  "You go first and I'll jump in after you."  Yeah, sure!  Unless you feel compelled to jump in, you're not going to be the first.

What worries me about that if that someone can just push you onto the water (thus outing you) even if you dont want.


What I dont understand if those persons who try to say their path its the only one. What works for you might not work for others. But I believe different paths, different point of views and idea should be lay down for the newcomers to see and for them to take a path they feel comfortable with.

Or just for others to realize there are option about the road that is transition and that everyone of them its valid because its your life. I mean I cant say the life of an out and proud person isnt valid because even if I was like that person (out and proud) Im not living that person's life. The same with being stealth. Its not my life its yours.

Dont let others dictate what you should do. Isnt it funny? Thats a big part of why I transitioned. To stop listening to the people in my family telling me what gender and social role I was when they were just selfish in their own. But my own selfishness that its transition because I was looking my happiness was a big no-no.

Quote from: DawnL on September 29, 2009, 12:34:34 PMWhat might reduce the stigma somewhat is removing TS from the DSM and making it a legitimate medical condition.

Amen sister!  TS has to be removed from the DSM and not be lumped in with the paraphilias (pedophilia, masochism, sadism, etc).  Having a book that is recognized by the APA stating our condition is a paraphilia or sexual disorder hurts us tremendously.

For the record:
Paraphilias all have in common distressing and repetitive sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors.  These fantasies, urges, or behaviors must occur for a significant period of time and must interfere with either satisfactory sexual relations or everyday functioning if the diagnosis is to be made.  There is also a sense of distress within these individuals.  In other words, they typically recognize the symptoms as negatively impacting their life but feel as if they are unable to control them.

I don't think many of us want that defining who we are.

Julie

My goal after GRS was to live life as stealthy as possible without the burden of being trans & I'm doing it.  I couldn't be happier.  I spent 25 years of my life as trans.  I wasted 25 years as trans when I could've been a happy girl.  I deserve to live a normal life as a woman. You'll know what I mean by 'normal' so don't make me explain it to you.  I respect those peeps that fight for equal rights but I'm not one of them.  Maybe it's selfish on my part but it's time to take care of me now.  I don't understand all this hullabaloo.  Stealth & being out are choices you make.  You do what you wanna do with your life.  Let me do what I wanna do with mine.

QuoteSorry if it's overly academic, the class and teacher were geared towards that style of writing so it came out as it did. I wrote this paper the morning it was due so there's an abundance of grammatical errors; ignore them if you can... (warning: it's really long)

I read it.  I can see that umbrella terms do have a tendency capture traits or characteristics that form the "lowest common denominator" of a population subset and indeed that's one reason why TV and CD would form part of "transgender".  Leaving aside the fetishistic, I've noticed from introductions and histories here that it's not uncommon for those who subsequently transition to have gone through a TV or CD stage, at least as a transient coping mechanism for dysphoria.

I also can see some truth in the idea that some would embrace the heteronormative dominant culture and how they would build a psychological "firewall" to disidentify with their minority past.

All that said, I don't think this is a particular problem that needs to be solved - this sort of variance will always exist.  Those who wish to "disidentify" should be allowed to do so.

The only problem, if there is a problem at all, seems to be over terminology.  Those that disidentify reject being categorised with those that don't, whereas the latter rail against the perceived "members-only-club" of the former.

The irony is that threads like this are replete with "nobody can tell me how to live" comments yet nobody is saying any such thing.  It's just an arbitrary labelling argument and from my cis-perspective on the sidelines, it's so illusory as to be verging on the laughable.