Quote from: interalia on November 22, 2009, 11:17:35 PM
Are we allowed to add more pros/cons?  I have some ideas.

Sure. Go right ahead!

And None Blonde, I've been trying to find a gender therapist! I don't know how to go about doing that!

Quote from: BigLover on November 21, 2009, 07:51:43 PM
There was probably a thread already opened on this topic but... I make this thread because I never wanted to transition and here are the reasons why I do and don't want to.

Pros of Transitioning
* I can appear and be percieved as my desired gender.
* I can finally be able to happily and openly do female things!
* I can finally have the rights and privleges of being a woman and I can be free of the hell that I've lived through all my male life!

Cons of Transitioning
* First off, the cost of transitioning is entirely too high.
* This doesn't change the fact that I was originally born with a male body.
* I have to move somewhere else, and start my new life because my family, co-workers if I get a job, and others will wonder what has happened to me.
* I read somewhere that transitioning could cause physical body damage.
* I still won't be able to get pregnant, or menstruate like biological females (a person born a female) could because I still won't have ovaries!
* I will still have XY chromosomes and they can't change them to XX chromosomes.
* My girlfriend/wife just might miss the me that i once was because she liked what she saw.
* I still won't have my ideal female figure except that I could still have large breasts.
* I'm going to miss the male body that I once had.

The pro's may be fewer than the con's but it is not the number of things that counts, you should consider their worth. In utilitarianism people would give each pro and con a sort of number value (say 1-10) and then assess the difference. And then some of the pro's you may have over simplified and could easily be broken into more.

For example, to appear and be percieved as one's desired gender, is also to be able to relate your true thoughts to others, relate your emotions, and share love and find love in the way that is truely you. And without these things alone I found myself falling into insanity, litteraly.(I'll explain that if you want.)

Being able to happily and openly do female things, is important in much of the same way as the last pro. To follow your interests is very important, and to be able to do such things is important to being content with life. But these things can be done without being female and happily so, if you don't mind others as maybe seeing you to be gay or something.

As for your 3rd pro it is sort of a restatement of the others.

As for your cons:

The cost is high but around 50% of the population drive around in a cars that are more expensive than what it can cost, in america at least. And even without a middle class income, with the right tenasity it can be achieved.

As for the body it may have been male and you may still have that y chromosome, but it is not the body, it is the mind and the spirit. If others know what you are they might not agree with that, but many would.

Physical damage is only a very low possibility.

As for your GF, if she can't love you for who you are then she is not the right one for you. And as for your family...don't let duty to genetic family out weigh the importance of happines with loveing family.

And yes you may have to move away, get a new job, miss old friends. But the new is always frightening at first. A new place, a new job, new friends, all of this can be exiting to have and to work for.

You may not have your "ideal" body, but few do TG or not. Although It may be statisticlly more likely for a TG to be sexier than a non-TG... I'll have to look into that. It is mostly what is on the inside that matters to one's self and to others. I admit that even I don't want to look like I hit every branch falling out of the ugly tree, but it is unlikely that one would turn out that way...unless they were already that ugly, maybe... but plastic surgery has come a long way... and you'd be amazed at what one can do with proper application of make-up!

As for the menstruate thing, if you truely are a female in the inside you will realize that is not that important. It may be odd to other women that you don't, but if it mattered to you what they thought U could always lie and say you have early onset menopause or something...had overian cancer..etc.
For me, that is one thing that I am glad I do not have to deal with that. I am a paranoid person, and I know that I would be afraid everyone knew and was watching me, If I walked out of class to go to the bathroom with my purse(a sure sign, in my opinion). Not to mention the discomfort of a pad, if thats what you used...And as for children you can always use a sperm bank.

If you are really going to miss your male body...that is odd. I can understand missing some of the things that having the male body allowed you to do, not that I can think of any though. Maybe pissing while standing up... But if you really think you would miss it, think deeply and be sure you arn't just thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

I guess I should ask you, why do you say you would miss your male body? What is it that makes you say that? Is it particular things about it, if so what are they? Or is it things you could do, what are they if so? Both?

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Post Merge: November 23, 2009, 07:08:33 PM

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Quote from: BigLover on November 23, 2009, 10:41:45 AM
Sure. Go right ahead!

And None Blonde, I've been trying to find a gender therapist! I don't know how to go about doing that!

Try some of the links on this page http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/therapy.html it should help you find therapists in your area.
If you already have a therapist use that one or at least ask that one if she/he knows of any Gender therapists.

Quote from: Autumn on November 23, 2009, 01:51:55 AMIt's not like the literotica transsexual section where guys get all dolled up and go out and get treated to free things and get fawned over and sleep with an entire biker gang with 9 inch members and make a new happy life as a woman.

I didn't quite understand where you were going with that but it's kind of funny you should mention literotica due to the fact, I have an account there.

Quote from: Autumn on November 23, 2009, 01:51:55 AMAlso is your avatar of your ideal woman that you want to be, or that you're attracted to?

Both. 

Well... I've been in and out of here these days and I've been thinking about all this gender change thing, and there were some stuff I wanted to cover being that I've been away so long.

Now, I am well aware that there are some biological who cannot menstuate nor get pregnant. Did any of you know Frida Khola was one of them? But however doesn't it make perfect sence that some trans women would want everything to do with a biological woman as possible?

About my voice- I do have a high-putched voice but it still sounds too male, and will they be able to get rid of my adam's apple? I will have to resort to expensive surgery, I know, but if it means softening my voice to sound female and getting rid of my adam's apple, then so be it.

The female figure- My ideal female figure, I wanted to have a little more meat on my body. I don't know why, I always had a thing for plus-sized women and wanted to take on that figure. Well, there's always eating a lot of junk food and fattnening foods but perhaps it's a part of my metabolism and can't get any wider. Plus, I always liked being thin and skinny... as a male that is...

About what I said about missing my male body, well I guess I shouldn't. Because you know, although most people think it isn't possible, there actually is "a turning back". I've read about a male-to-female-then-back-to-male transexual, born a male, became a trans woman, and then went back to male. I know money plays a big-behind factor in this but I just don't feel like getting the same ol' bull->-bleeped-<- that there is no going back to male because if it was possible for him, it's possible for me to. Not that I would change my body just to go back but if I ever feel that I miss my life and I have the money, I will revert back to my male form. As I typed all this, I just thought about just trying one year of being a trans woman and if I want my life back, I will go back to male... If I have the money that is!

I swore black and blue that I wasn't going to do this... but now I think I may have to do this thing.

Quote from: BigLover on November 21, 2009, 07:51:43 PMCons of Transitioning

* I read somewhere that transitioning could cause physical body damage.

Only if you count becoming permanently sterile, having real breasts, changing your body shape, and getting your male genitalia surgically turned inside out to form a vagina as "damage".

Standards of Care state you should live full time (24/7) in your target gender for a year before having surgery.  Part of the reason for that stipulation is to find out if this is indeed what you want and to find out if you can manage it.

You can live as a woman full time with no surgical intervention.  That way if you do want to go back to male you can, and it won't cost you a fortune.

Genital surgery, where they remove your testicles and change your penis into a vagina is not reversible.  If you are unhappy because you can't menstruate or get pregnant as a woman, think how you would feel as a man with no testicles and no chance of ever having them again.

Transition isn't an easy process.  It isn't just putting on a dress, taking some pills and lying on a table to get cut up.  BigLover, I really think you would benefit from talking one-on-one with someone knowledgeable about all this – a gender therapist (or at least a general therapist).

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on November 28, 2009, 07:44:57 PM
Standards of Care state you should live full time (24/7) in your target gender for a year before having surgery.  Part of the reason for that stipulation is to find out if this is indeed what you want and to find out if you can manage it.

You can live as a woman full time with no surgical intervention.  That way if you do want to go back to male you can, and it won't cost you a fortune.

Genital surgery, where they remove your testicles and change your penis into a vagina is not reversible.  If you are unhappy because you can't menstruate or get pregnant as a woman, think how you would feel as a man with no testicles and no chance of ever having them again.

Transition isn't an easy process.  It isn't just putting on a dress, taking some pills and lying on a table to get cut up.  BigLover, I really think you would benefit from talking one-on-one with someone knowledgeable about all this – a gender therapist (or at least a general therapist).

- Kate

Really? Then is does the same apply for turning the vagina into a penis? Just curious...

Quote from: Robin. on November 23, 2009, 07:05:18 PM
As for the menstruate thing, if you truely are a female in the inside you will realize that is not that important. It may be odd to other women that you don't, but if it mattered to you what they thought U could always lie and say you have early onset menopause or something...had overian cancer..etc.

Actually, you probably wouldn't even have to explain anything. If menstruation comes up in conversation with other females and you want to say that you don't menstruate, you can say you never have or just that you don't. Most people probably won't pry because they recognize that infertility is a sorrowful subject for women who are. It's not something people are going to think is weird no matter your age as plenty of women are infertile and nobody's going to guess you're trans because of it.

Quote from: BigLover on November 28, 2009, 04:34:30 PM
I didn't quite understand where you were going with that but it's kind of funny you should mention literotica due to the fact, I have an account there.

Both. 

Well... I've been in and out of here these days and I've been thinking about all this gender change thing, and there were some stuff I wanted to cover being that I've been away so long.

Now, I am well aware that there are some biological who cannot menstuate nor get pregnant. Did any of you know Frida Khola was one of them? But however doesn't it make perfect sence that some trans women would want everything to do with a biological woman as possible?

About my voice- I do have a high-putched voice but it still sounds too male, and will they be able to get rid of my adam's apple? I will have to resort to expensive surgery, I know, but if it means softening my voice to sound female and getting rid of my adam's apple, then so be it.

The female figure- My ideal female figure, I wanted to have a little more meat on my body. I don't know why, I always had a thing for plus-sized women and wanted to take on that figure. Well, there's always eating a lot of junk food and fattnening foods but perhaps it's a part of my metabolism and can't get any wider. Plus, I always liked being thin and skinny... as a male that is...

About what I said about missing my male body, well I guess I shouldn't. Because you know, although most people think it isn't possible, there actually is "a turning back". I've read about a male-to-female-then-back-to-male transexual, born a male, became a trans woman, and then went back to male. I know money plays a big-behind factor in this but I just don't feel like getting the same ol' bull->-bleeped-<- that there is no going back to male because if it was possible for him, it's possible for me to. Not that I would change my body just to go back but if I ever feel that I miss my life and I have the money, I will revert back to my male form. As I typed all this, I just thought about just trying one year of being a trans woman and if I want my life back, I will go back to male... If I have the money that is!

I swore black and blue that I wasn't going to do this... but now I think I may have to do this thing.

As far as the MtFtM....well, go to the FtM sites for surgery and check it out a bit. It's not like they put his bits back just the way he had them...the guy probably paid to get an arm penis and while its better than NO penis (for those of us that want them  ) its still nowhere near as good as a homegrown bio-dick. Not to mention the sterility and inability to ejaculate...and honestly I doubt a lot of sexual sensitivity survived through all that. Even if you just went on HRT, there are some effects that are not temporary and will stay with you--breast growth for instance, which if you have removed will cause scarring. So whatever you do, DO NOT approach transition with the attitude of, "well if I don't like it I can just go back"...because yes, technically you can go back to being male-looking, but you won't be as you are right now.

The comment of "I have always had a thing for big women so I want to look like that"...keep in mind the chances of you looking like your ideal woman are VERY slim (it even is for ciswomen for that matter). I know I'm not going to look like my ideal man by any stretch of the mind...but is worth it to just be a man, even if I don't have the reflection I dream of. So before even considering transition, can you deal with the idea of being a homely woman if it came down to it?

The same thing with the voice. There are vocal surgeries, but no telling how they will turn out, and theres a chance you can even go mute permanently from them. They can do a trach shave to eliminate the adam's apple yes. Chances are though, you'll just want to train your voice.

Once my bits are removed, I would never go back to being male. I would rather died poor, homeless and a woman, than be a rich, mansion-owning, man.

The last time I tried suicide I was working at a good job, had a home and a family ( step son and wife ), but I was still male.  I now live in a 30' trailer, unemployed, but I am happy because I am further along being a completed woman. 



Janet

Quote"well if I don't like it I can just go back"...because yes, technically you can go back to being male-looking, but you won't be as you are right now.

That is really profound, well said.

Not that I'd know, but I'm going through exactly the same sort of list and weighing up the pros and cons. Pretty near the top of the list in "pros" is I DON'T like my male body. This is one of the (for me) major considerations as to why I want to transition. I have always felt female, but never liked my body after puberty.

I feel I qualify in this discussion because I'm in the "consider my options" category. As I've said in my earlier posts, that warm fuzzy feeling I get when I dream of being in the female form is a serious motivator. I want to be happy and contented in myself and if transitioning is ultimately the answer then so be it.

It always seemed to me that actually there was only one question worth bothering with.

Can I put up with having an outwardly male body (with some ambiguities in my case) all my life?

The answer was no, because all I was doing was going through the motions of living, people never met the real me. So I reasoned that as I was a kind of female ghost I'd be better off dead! And once I had admitted that to myself then that awful suicidal feeling trumped all the rest of the pros's and cons and I knew that no matter what the cost I HAD to do it. I HAD to be myself. About three decades later... no regrets.

I wrote a poem about it for my MA in creative writing actually here it is. It's one of a portfolio on "becoming myself" that I wrote (and if anyone wants to read or indeed publish the whole cycle please PM me) Enjoy:

The Inverse of Vanishing

For years I thought myself invisible,
People passed me on stairs
or shook my hand at parties.
"Pleased to meet you," they said,
even though they didn't.
The ghost in their machine,
truth trapped behind mirrors,
dwelling in the land of fantasy,
dream, or nightmare.
But then the mirror cracked.

I slipped into this world through a hairline.
Now it is you who are the imaginary.
A world of delusions,
each striving for their reality.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 29, 2009, 12:16:57 AM
Once my bits are removed, I would never go back to being male. I would rather died poor, homeless and a woman, than be a rich, mansion-owning, man.

The last time I tried suicide I was working at a good job, had a home and a family ( step son and wife ), but I was still male.  I now live in a 30' trailer, unemployed, but I am happy because I am further along being a completed woman. 



Janet

Thanks for that. It's comments like that which give me some solace. You are indeed an inspiration.

As others have said, transition is not something to be taken lightly.  I am MTFTM and am incredibly fortunate.  I have met others who have detransitioned and they have some monumental challenges involving their personal and social lives due to the choices they made while in transition.

Pros and cons are important to consider, but try not to engage in "absolutist" thinking.

Quote from: rejennyrated on November 29, 2009, 03:52:24 AM
It always seemed to me that actually there was only one question worth bothering with.

Can I put up with having an outwardly male body (with some ambiguities in my case) all my life?

This is an example of what I'm talking about.  This type of thinking can easily be used to justify transition to an unhappy individual even if transition isn't the best choice for them.  Perhaps ask, "can I deal with being male today?"  There may come a point where that answer is "no" and some action might need to be taken, but surely people can live within the extremes.  For instance, I could not be happy living as the male I once was.  Extremist thinking dictated to me that I needed to transition to being a girl.  I didn't know there was a middle ground back then, something I found later on.  I still don't like my boy bits or many aspects of being male and often believe being female would be preferable, but I can manage the discomfort of being male now making full transition largely unnecessary due to its high costs (socially, emotionally, and financially).

It is a very difficult decision and one, often once made, is almost impossible to return from.  Counseling is your very best friend so seek out a qualified professional - it will be worth the cost.

Quote from: interalia on November 29, 2009, 07:25:00 PM
Pros and cons are important to consider, but try not to engage in "absolutist" thinking.

This is an example of what I'm talking about.  This type of thinking can easily be used to justify transition to an unhappy individual even if transition isn't the best choice for them.  Perhaps ask, "can I deal with being male today?"  There may come a point where that answer is "no" and some action might need to be taken, but surely people can live within the extremes.  For instance, I could not be happy living as the male I once was.  Extremist thinking dictated to me that I needed to transition to being a girl.  I didn't know there was a middle ground back then, something I found later on.  I still don't like my boy bits or many aspects of being male and often believe being female would be preferable, but I can manage the discomfort of being male now making full transition largely unnecessary due to its high costs (socially, emotionally, and financially).

It is a very difficult decision and one, often once made, is almost impossible to return from.  Counseling is your very best friend so seek out a qualified professional - it will be worth the cost.

That is an interesting point of view and one which has some merit but I guess it also shows how difficult it is when you take a part of a post out of the whole... because of course the point was that such a decision isn't made in an instant. It was when every single day the answer kept on being no, and I became suicidal which lead to the realisation that action did have to be taken.

It's also slightly different for me because of course I am looking back from the prespective of someone who not only transitioned but also had SRS over 25 year ago, and has been happy ever since. So obviously for me it was a good decision. But that makes it almost impossible to look back without my view of the decision making process being coloured by what I know came afterwards...

The thing is, as you say, when in the thick of it, you have to take one day at a time. But the problem is when you have made a decsion you can't know for sure what would have happened if you had taken that other road. So I personally found, and still feel, that councelling (and I had plenty from the ages of five to 20) was not so much help because we kept going round in circles. In any case it's a bit late and not really much needed now (ok I know you didn't mean for me... you meant for others who are making the decision now, and actually I agree everyone should try it.)

That's also part of how I made my decision, because eventully I reasoned that there were no guarrantees of any absolute outcome either way. Either road could lead to disaster and unhappiness, but I am a person who would always prefer to fail because of something which I DID than because of something which I failed to do or failed to try. I am someone who easily accepts my failings and failures as long as I feel that I did my best.

In this instance 25 years postop happiness says that I didn't fail. But it certainly doesn't follow that anyone else will necessarily be the same.

as long as those cons still outnumber the pros dont transition end of story
jessica

When I retired I decided to move.  I've lived all over and this was the first time it was completely my choice.  There were two places I was interested in moving to and I couldn't decide.  I made up a list of the pros and cons of each place.  As I kept working on the list, I found that I was skewing the data – making the pros for one place sound better and the corresponding entry for the other sound less good.  Once I realized that, I knew what my choice was.

A pros-and-cons list can help, but in the end it is a choice that you make according to your feelings, intuition, and limited knowledge of the possibilities.  Making the list may help you figure out what those feelings are, but it is only an aid.

- Kate

BTW: I'm happier living here than anywhere else I've ever lived.

If you are in two minds then you are not ready.   We all go through periods where we ask ourselves if we are doing the right thing but you should only transition when you are 110% ready to take on the consequences

Quote from: BigLover on November 22, 2009, 06:30:48 PM
And yes, I understand that there are bilogical women (born with a female body) that are unable to menstruate and undergo pregnancy. But, the thing of it is, I never wanted to get pregnant, really. I just wanted to have a monthy period and be able to undergo pregnancy because biological women can and I want everything to do with a biological female as possible.

well, most transsexuals would take all of that if they could just get it, and it was that easy, but those features really don't even matter. just because you don't have them doesn't mean you aren't enough of a woman. i consider those features "toppings." they are just the crowning of society's view of the "perfect female." it's like a sundae. you can choose everything you want on it, and everyone wants a cherry on top for perfection, but it's that easy, because you can choose. if you don't put a cherry on top or take it off, it is still a sundae like any other sundae, and people will enjoy it.