Well I lost the Male priviage card years ago.  Plus yes I was picked on all the time growing up,  Never did figure out why ;-).  But even in the past life I had discussed with other women and seen how woman were treated in the workplace.  Now I'm treated the same way.  Not complaining, just how it is. 


Beni

Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 14, 2009, 12:45:09 PM
This is a point that she made. I will never know what she endured as a girl being raised as a second class citizen. However, as an effeminate child, I was beaten and treated terribly by boys and men because I wasn't male enough.  It gave them license to abuse. That is different than being dismissed as a girl. I didn't see any girls being beaten by gangs of boys. Of course some were being beaten by their fathers as my wife was.

My point was that as a gender variant boy, I wasn't welcomed into the boy's club, instead they nearly killed me. Then later in life when I could not understand or deal with male bonding or pissing contents in grad school or the workplace, I was again abused or dismissed. Ultimately, I could not progress in my company so quit, never to be hired again. I started my business to get away from men.

So to be lumped into a pool of the common male really hurts. I understand why she hates men, but I have the scars to show that they weren't good to me either.

Maggie

Hi Maggie.
I do too. Girls and later, women were horrible to me. But because I didn't receive my rightful 'girl' experience doesn't mean I got what boys go through. I was never abused for being a 'pussy' like many boys are, and like I imagine I would have been based on my likes and dislikes.

Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2009, 10:38:13 AM
Hi Maggie.
I do too. Girls and later, women were horrible to me. But because I didn't receive my rightful 'girl' experience doesn't mean I got what boys go through. I was never abused for being a 'pussy' like many boys are, and like I imagine I would have been based on my likes and dislikes.

Don't get me wrong, I never said that I got what girls got but to say that I benefited from being male just like other natal males is simply not true. There were many benefits that I was excluded from and I was abused because I wouldn't tow the gender line.

Maggie

You didn't benefit from being male because you weren't male. But that doesn't mean that you weren't afforded male privilege. Perhaps you didn't get it to the same extent as many, and certainly you lacked privilege in other areas, but if your wife thinks you benefitted, I'd take her word for it. Privilege isn't usually noticed by the people who have it, only by those who lack it. So ask her what she means, and listen to her.

But of course she ought to listen to you as well, both because you are married and because you have a worthwhile perspective regardless how male privilege has benefitted or hurt you.

Agreeing with Nero and K8.  And Alyssa.  Actually, Nero put everything as succinctly and eloquently as I would have wanted to, so thanks to him for saving me the trouble. 

Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not. I find this interesting and surprising.

I think this explains why some natal women are hostile towards transwomen. They see us as usurping femininity as another aspect of male privilege as unwelcome men barging into the women's club. I think my wife is squarely in this camp and she resents me for it.

Maggie

WOW! Very well put Alyssa. You said what was on my mind and on my lips, but note on paper. Thanks
Sarah

Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not. I find this interesting and surprising.

So do I, and as I went through school in an officially sanctioned androgynous role and fully "transitioned" almost before I entered adulthood I can't really see how anyone could logically maintain that position with me.

To my mind it's not what chromasomes we originally had and whether we had to have various surgeries that counts - it's how we have lived in society and indeed worked that is the determining factor. So it isn't about being trans per-se - but about the extent to which prior to transition someone chose, or indeed did not choose to drink from the male cup!

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 14, 2009, 09:11:59 PM


I think there tends to be a misunderstanding of what privilege really means, so I'll address that:

Here's the thing about privilege: everyone has some. Nearly everyone lacks some. So all of us trans women who had a rough time growing up among boys, well, that just means we didn't have cis privilege or macho privilege or whatever. Everyone recognizes the gradations of privilege based on looks and femininity among women; well men have that too.

I had an awful childhood, but it's still as plain as day to me that I have experienced male privilege. In conversation, people have listened to me even when my ideas weren't as worthwhile, or when I was saying the same thing as a woman who was being ignored. I was encouraged to go into math and science in ways that my sisters weren't, despite two very supportive, mathematical parents and a very progressive school atmosphere. I haven't had to worry about studying late on campus and walking home alone. However much I hated how I looked, nobody ever told me I need to lose weight, take better care of my fingernails, wear more or less makeup, etc. Nobody ever leered at me in a threatening way when I went to the beach. I haven't had to worry when I went to parties that I'd get something slipped into my drink and wake up to a man raping me.

Very well put Alyssa, I was actually reared with 3brothers no sisters, my Mother was more part of my life after my transition, my brothers did exactly what they liked, but I was under her control a lot as I was now the daughter she always wanted, but now a girl with 3brothers I sort of lost that bond with them, well it was kinda weak anyway as I always felt different from them, even now when we are in family company, they stop chatting about ''men stuff'' if I just happen to walk into a room, I suppose I should be flattered that they just except me as a woman, yeah Iv lost my ''male privilege card'' but then in other ways Iv gained ''female privileges'' getting offered seats on trains and doors being helded open for me, men get a cheap hair cut if it doesn't turn out right nobodys notices, but when I get my perm and color done if it doesn't turn out just right somebody will definitely say ''omg pauline what have you done to your hair'' probably spented a small fortune, I could go on and on, when I resently complained in a store about a computer I had repaired, I definitely over heard the guy saying to his work mate ''women what would they know about computers'' say no more.
p

Let's not jump to conclusions. Having male privilege doesn't mean you have it to the same extent as others, nor that you keep it after you transition, though some effects (higher confidence in the areas of math, leadership, and basic intelligence, for instance) might stick around. Even if those effects linger for you, it doesn't make you a bad person or less of a woman; it just makes you a
more confident woman. Your wife might as well resent younger generations of women who have benefitted from feminist activism.

Let's also not forget that male privilege is not the only kind of privilege in the world. Being white, able-bodied, American, anglophone, employed, well-educated, middle- or upper-class, young, etc., all give you privilege. Being cisgendered is a biggie. One of the biggest, and one you wife eating up. But speaking for myself, on the social totem pole I'm preciously close to the top.

And Jenny, if you never really lived in a male role, that's a different story. But if you did, even if you didn't want to, people treated you differently as a result, and that guess you privilege, regardless whatever other oppression you might have experienced.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not.

Reading the posts, I don't see this conclusion. 

Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
They see us as usurping femininity as another aspect of male privilege as unwelcome men barging into the women's club. I think my wife is squarely in this camp and she resents me for it.

I think this comes from the idea that a trans-woman is a man disguising himself as woman.  As such she will have the best of both worlds, while the cis-woman must suffer with only the advantages and disadvantages of being a woman.  It's kind of like the trans-woman is holding dual citizenship.  I don't know how you change that kind of thinking.

For me, I've found that as I was deciding to transition I knew I had to give up one to fully become the other.  I had to hand in my passport and get a new one, with all the advantages and disadvantages that go along with that.  Now I have not only given up whatever advantages I had because I was seen as male, I don't even get natural citizenship but will always be an immigrant – a naturalized citizen – even though this is where I belong.

- Kate

Well.... i dont know about you, but i was never male, i never sucked up that male function, and yes i do know how a physically born woman feels, because i AM a physically minded woman!

I agree with Maggie Kay and rejennyrated, I transioned in my teens, many a moon ago. 

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 15, 2009, 06:31:09 PM
And Jenny, if you never really lived in a male role, that's a different story. But if you did, even if you didn't want to, people treated you differently as a result, and that guess you privilege, regardless whatever other oppression you might have experienced.

No really I didn't, but by the same token I haven't really had any oppression either. So I guess I kind of don't fully qualify to play on either team. I'm stuck in no-mans land in the middle. Typical

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 16, 2009, 02:21:22 AM
No really I didn't, but by the same token I haven't really had any oppression either. So I guess I kind of don't fully qualify to play on either team. I'm stuck in no-mans land in the middle. Typical

Maybe because you are NO MAN.   I know, I know. Bad KAT!

I note here some are saying they had terrible childhoods, that's very sad and I empathise with them.  I honestly can't agree myself with that stance. I enjoyed my childhood immensely, sadly I lost my Dad at age 12, but with two younger brothers, I enjoyed that period of my life.

Quote from: LordKAT on December 16, 2009, 02:40:43 AM
Maybe because you are NO MAN.   I know, I know. Bad KAT!

ROFLMAO!  Very very funny KAT! My partner reckons it's because I'm an alien. Her theory... I was planted here as a baby from a planet where they don't understand gender - so I can't fit in!

Quote
I transitioned permanently and had SRS before my adult life had really begun. In effect I have lived almost all my life as a female although technically I am still Trans MtF, a label that I am happy to wear. But clearly I represent a different prospect to someone who transitions at 40+ having already risen to the top of some corporate tree as all my significant achievements in life have been in the guise of a woman.

Genetics doesn't work either, because there are natal XY females and indeed XX males - they are rare but they do exist.

So I don't think there is a right answer here other than to say that it depends entirely on the transwoman and, maybe in part, how early in life they transitioned.

Very similar to myself, in fact this forum is the only place I actually do have any contact with transwomen or transmen.  Naturally it's fine by me, but I am glad my teens are many many years behind me. 

Kavall, I can only assume the being 'male' or 'female' is a privledge then?

I personally don't think of transgender post op's  a third gender.

Do you  think that being male is a privledge?

I am female, and only very secondly a MTF person.     I truly never think of my gender and the life I  lead as anything but female, and never did.

(I may be slightly misunderstanding you.)

Quote from: Kvall on December 16, 2009, 04:15:39 AM
Dianna, that is my point exactly. You are female, and therefore you cannot have male privilege any more than a cis woman could.

Okies, following you now Kavall.