I identify as completely male, and I'm a little taken aback at the insinuation that I am somehow submitting to The Man, not being truly honest with myself, being male on purpose because it's easier, hiding, lying or shedding my core values.

It's great to question, and I support those who don't fit the binary and all, but to assume that those of us that identify as male are lying to ourselves just because you don't identify the same way is being a little arrogent.

It'd be like a cisgendered person saying that gender variance doesn't exist, and that any deviation means you are lying to yourself and repressing your "true biological nature" (or some such crap).


Where did my sense of gender come from? Well - I've always had the internal identity of one who plays for "Team Testosterone". I always thought I'd grow up to be a man since I was a small child, just so happens that it's got to be by my own hand.

I'm just being myself. I just happen to like "typical guy stuff". I want facial hair, body hair and erections. I'm not making an effort to be one way over another - I'm just doing my thing. If my thing happens to be what a crapload of other men are doing, and suddenly I'm in a majority, then so be it. I'm not a cardboard cutout of manhood, but I'm not a unique snowflake either.

Look, you honestly sound like (not saying you are) an androgyne / genderqueer / bi-gender / transgender person (not strictly transsexual is what I'm getting at) who's proud to be out and non-binary conforming. That's great, you have every right to be proud of who you are - but don't let your self-pride get in the way of understanding that it's ok for people to be different to you, while still being true to themselves.

Being a militant non-conformist is still being a conformist - you're just asking people to conform to a minority viewpoint. Don't fall into that trap, it's all to easy and pervasive in areas such as this.

Ask all the questions you want by all means, but you might get better answers if you ratchet down the 'you binary sheeple!' factor down a poofteenth, yeah? 

Quote from: Teknoir on January 10, 2010, 07:36:28 AM

Look, you honestly sound like (not saying you are) an androgyne / genderqueer / bi-gender / transgender person (not strictly transsexual is what I'm getting at) who's proud to be out and non-binary conforming. That's great, you have every right to be proud of who you are - but don't let your self-pride get in the way of understanding that it's ok for people to be different to you, while still being true to themselves.

Surely anyone who wants to go so far as to medically transition is transsexual.  I thought that the definition of transsexual is someone who wants the body of the "opposite" sex not "someone who conforms to every ideal of the opposite sex".  I'm not saying that anybody is bad for wanting to be as man as man can be or that is 'wrong' and I rather hope that isn't what the original poster is trying to say either.  However on a personal level, I want to be male, so I am transsexual.  But I also want to be a rather "flavoured" male on many accounts.  I don't think that necessarily makes me genderqueer but I do identify as "queer" above transsexual because its a better desciption. 

For the original poster - Teknoir has a very good point here.  To be critical of a transman who wants to be seen as 100% male is just as bad as them being critical of you for 'being your own flavour of transman'.  Even in a minority group like us, there is massive diversity.  That's the human race for you.  There may be men amongst us that are identifying 'as male as possible' because its easier.  That's the same in the gay community too.  But that's not everybody. 

Above all, being ourselves is what counts right!?   

Quote from: Alessandro on January 10, 2010, 08:16:41 AM
Surely anyone who wants to go so far as to medically transition is transsexual.  I thought that the definition of transsexual is someone who wants the body of the "opposite" sex not "someone who conforms to every ideal of the opposite sex".  I'm not saying that anybody is bad for wanting to be as man as man can be or that is 'wrong' and I rather hope that isn't what the original poster is trying to say either.  However on a personal level, I want to be male, so I am transsexual.  But I also want to be a rather "flavoured" male on many accounts.  I don't think that necessarily makes me genderqueer but I do identify as "queer" above transsexual because its a better desciption. 

Errr... that wasn't aimed at you, that was in reference to :

Quote from: andiafuera on January 09, 2010, 04:02:02 PM
I'll never be a female, yet I'll never be a male. Nor do I want to be either. I am trans, and don't fit perfectly into either box.

I was getting too lazy to quote .

It was more my way of saying to the OP "well, there are plenty of groups that identify as extra binary - you aren't alone if you're looking for people that feel they belong in a bit more of a grey area. The binary conforming 1-to-1 direct swapski transsexuals may be a different group than what you're looking to identify with (yet still your supporters, of course  ). Here are some other terms to explore....".

I certainly don't think one being a particular type of man (especially if said "type" is sexual orientation related) would exclude one from being classed as transsexual! (that would be... err... pretty hypocritical to say the least). I personally think the descriptor is along the lines of "identifies as only male or female" (as opposed to both or something else).

Groups aren't at all important when it comes to being yourself, anyway - but they can assist in finding people with similar experiances and outlooks. That's pretty darn helpful when you're still sorting yourself out.

Right now, passing isn't as important to me because i KNOW it isn't likely to happen. It's great to get that "stop and think about it" reactions but i don't look for it at this point. What other people see me as (or what they expect me to be as EITHER gender for that matter) isn't important because i know what i am.

That, to me, is all that matters. I can't help it if other people look for gender identifiers or through blinders. I'll worry more about passing when i start T (hopefully soon.) Right now i'm content to bind, pack (on occasion), and wear my "guy clothes" (my parents words BTW - that's what they refer to my everyday wear now lmao) without worrying if i look "masculine enough."

Teknoir - Oh OK I get it.  I didn't see that the OP had said that they didn't want to be male.   Oops   

The way people see you effects the way people treat you...
It's simple as that.

Ah! So much good input. I'm sorry if my shameless curiosity and role of devil's advocate has taken anyone aback... please know I DO respect everyone's unique experience and appreciate everyone's input.

As far as my place on the gender spectrum, I am a male, but I don't want society, or other trans -dudes for that matter, to tell me WHAT male is. And as far as me be quoted as saying I'm male nor female nor do I want to be either, I'm speaking in terms of my bodily form.

Also, I think my posts have deviated from the original topic and I must get back to the original reason why I started this thread... Simply in reaction to reading so many accounts of "Didn't pass today. FAILED. ahh! my life!" as well as "Am I manly enough, even though..."

I don't understand why we need the validation of others to make us feel like we're getting the job done. and when we allow outside criticisms to affect us, I truly believe we are prone to hiding and shedding parts of ourselves in fear of not 'looking the part'...

Quote from: andiafuera on January 10, 2010, 02:47:56 AMLike whether or not trans-dudes come to identify as wholly male because it's easier. It's easier to fit nicely into an understandable package. It's easier for our identity and gender to be more recognizable and accepted.

For me I've always identified as male. Not female, not in-between, but male. I sometimes wonder if it's easier for people who identify as in-between or gender neutral because they don't care if they're seen as one or the other. Maybe they have less dysphoria too? I don't know. I do know one thing- there's nothing easy about transition.