One thing that nearly all martial arts teach you is the best way to avoid a problem is to be aware and avoid the problem

Sure, you may be able to take a gun away from a person, you may be able to break the elbow of someone with a knife. You may even be able to fend off three guys who are somewhat drunk and decide to beat you up to get their jollies. Or as I recently learned, some nut may attempt to rape you

But in reality, even the best martial artists will have to fight for there lives when attacked, and I am def. not one of the best

Actually, although I've studied various martial arts in younger days, I tend to call my own style "F-U survival mode"

Although I've been trained with a variety firearms I don't like to be around them. But I will admit that I have been tempted to get myself some heat

I took Aiki Jujitsu for about 6 months which is geared more to ending the fight as soon as it starts. Breaking bones, etc. The lighter version of this is Aikido which is very graceful yet still awesome as self defense. I actually thought about taking this for a while and might try it one day. Size and strength doesn't matter.

Quote from: Britney_413 on June 10, 2010, 01:46:06 AM
I'll chime in here. First, I'd like to dispel the myth that weapons are useless or only for the weak. Speaking of the weak, weapons make perfect sense. A gun is said to be the great equalizer. An 80-year-old frail woman who can barely get around would be an easy target for gangbangers to beat up and rob. Now if that same elderly frail woman has a .357 on her side and has been shooting since she was 11 years old, that changes things. I have an Arizona CCW permit. I usually carry where legally allowed and sometimes visibly. Last night I made a trip to the local Walmart after midnight. There were about seven thug-looking characters loitering around the entrance who clearly didn't look like they belonged there and had no intention of shopping or doing anything constructive. I walked in with my Glock on my hip and did my quick one-item shopping. Ten minutes later when I walked out of the store, guess how many of them were still hanging around acting suspicious? You guessed it: ZERO.

The question is: What would that group think of you when you show up with a visible fire-arm? They were loitering people. You've got them everywhere, and that doesn't imply that they're dangerous. Your assessment might have been wrong. Their assessment of you might have been wrong. They might have simply thought that you were so predjudice against them that you might start trouble. The way it sounds to me, in this situation, you were the liability. Not them.

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Enough about guns. Let's talk about situational awarness which I think is most important. Let's assume that someone is determined to do you in. They can't do so if they can't get to you. They can either attack you in your home, in the company of others (such as a public place), or while traveling (walking, driving, bus, etc.). You can protect yourself quite well in these situations without needing weapons or martial arts at all. At home, lock the damn doors. Problem solved. If that fails, every home has some type of a weapon (i.e. kitchen knife) that can be used to do in an intruder. As to public places, pay attention to your surroundings. Sit in a restaurant at a seat where you have the maximum view of your surroundings. Note your exits. If you are in line at a store, beware of blind spots as you remove your wallet to pay for the items. These things may take getting used to but after awhile they become second nature. As to traveling, use your five senses. If you are walking, you can not only see but hear or smell another person approaching (i.e. freshly lit cigarette). It sounds animalistic but we are mammals and use your instinctual survival skills. Cars--check your mirrors, watch when you get in/out of the car. Just pay attention to what is around you such as on trains, buses, etc.

Sounds a bit paranoid, to me. And I've lived a decade of my life as a street fighter who was always in trouble. I've learnt that it's partly my posture that creates trouble; it you expect it, you will have a higher chance of getting it.

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I've always found that the easiest way to avoid being victimized is literally as simple as paying attention. I could be armed to the teeth but it won't help if my mind is buried in the morning paper while someone is sneaking up behind me.

While true, it does pay to know whén you have the pay attention. Pay too much attention, and you'll be convinced that danger is everywhere. Paranoia, again.

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If the fight is on, my advice is create distance. This is precisely why I like weapons vs. martial arts. A fist can be far deadlier than a gun or knife. All they have to do is knock you unconscious and you are done. The purpose of physically fighting is to re-create distance. Knock the gun out of their hands, quickly duck/dodge as they try to stab you, etc. However, once you have fought with your body and created the distance, the key is to maintain that distance. Pepper spray, tasers, knives, and guns all create distance more effectively than fists.

Combat is ruthlessly fast. Drawing a gun is a very costly action, in terms of time, not even counting aiming and getting the safety off. And then, you still have to shoot. Shooting a gun is a very hard deal. You have to really, really wánt to do that, and for humans, it is quite hard in generally to unleash such a force.
And even if you did, the fight isn't over. Some people will be so extremely shocked when shot that they instinctively cower. This is basically what you're aiming for. Other people will instinctively go completely berserk on you. If that happens, you'll die unless you shoot them in the head. Is it worth the gamble? A single bullet rarely renders the opponent dead or even incapacitated.
Another problem is that it's really hard to create distance against people who really want to harm you. As soon as you step back, they'll be on top of you, cornering you into close combat while your hand is at your holster, and completely useless. Even if you've drawn the gun; when they're on top of you, you can't aim it properly, and probably won't hit anything. The chances of hitting them with it are also just about equal of the chances hitting yourself.

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Be brave and don't feel powerless. Victimizers tend to prey on people deemed to be weak. That is why attackers often attack in groups. However, there is likely an alpha male in the group. Suppose six guys want to beat you. One is likely the toughest baddest one in the group. The others are following him. Once you down the worst one, the others may just back off. Plus, fight dirty. Seriously. It is your life, your body, and your existance at stake. My only other advice is to regularly run what-if scenarios in your head. It may seem like paranoia but can save your life. The more situations you imagine the more solutions to them you will create. When the real event happens you will automatically revert to your training. If you already have a plan, you are likely to mess up the attacker's plan because they certainly will assume you don't have one. Take care.

True, but don't overdo it to the point where you see possible assault everywhere. Your posture will give you away, and it will invite assault as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I have the rank of Shodan in an Okinawan martial art and studied jujitsu as well. If applied correctly the techniques WILL work no matter what ones size. I would not hesitate to confront someone holding a knife or stick. A firearm is another story-then it's time to get my hat. The worst whipping I ever got while training was from a 14 year old girl.

Quote from: tekla on June 09, 2010, 10:35:37 PM
I'll take all the martial arts classes, all the training, all of that up against one guy who grew up in the streets, on the streets and I will take him plus 15 points to kick all of your asses.  None of you even begin to know what you're talking about in a real city, in real time.

smartest post in this thread.

martial arts are good exercise and good lessons in body awareness...but they are only a pale shadow of what a real fight for your life is like.

if anyone wants to know the previous experiences that qualify me to make that judgement, feel free to send me a pm. 

Quote from: Hauser on June 10, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
smartest post in this thread.

martial arts are good exercise and good lessons in body awareness...but they are only a pale shadow of what a real fight for your life is like.

if anyone wants to know the previous experiences that qualify me to make that judgement, feel free to send me a pm.

This is why I favor Krav Maga.  It is based on what you would encounter in real life situations.  Instinctual movements rather than a set series of patterns

That's why I favor hanging out in nicer neighborhoods.  All too often this kind of training when taken the wrong way (toting weapons also does the same thing) encourages people to take chances that they would be best off not taking - and would not take without it.  Any alley that is not safe for you without a weapon, or martial arts training, is just as unsafe with that stuff.

It might help in some one one one situation with some nutbar (though even then... most crazy people are in fact too crazy to know when they've lost, thus making them pretty hard to beat unless you kill them) but humans are pack animals, and an aweful lot of this stuff happens on a pack level, so you're going to be facing more than one.  I sure don't see where its going to help you against your local Crips, Bloods, Norteños, Sureños, Latin Kings or any of those groups.  Like Ice-T said in 'Midnight', Some places red don't go, some places red's all they know and that stuff is very, very serious and its in every major metropolitan area of the US, and most of the minor places also.

About a year ago Oakland cops tried to pull a guy over, a routine traffic stop as they say.  He came out with an automatic rifle, killed 3 cops who were trying to arrest him, and later killed 2 more when SWAT tried to storm the apartment where he was holed up (among other things he was wanted for rape), do you really think your Dojo training is going to be more powerful than he is (was, he's dead, dead, dead now - shoot a cop in Oakland you're NOT going to jail - true in a lot of cities by the way)?  And that shooting happened on a corner that when I lived in Oakland I'd go past almost every day.  And it was broad daylight.

The woman who was raped for hours by four gang members in Richmond, could she have fought all of them off?

All of that is very excellent stuff for training your body, mind and in some cases spirit, but it never can overcome people who grew up fighting, and still are constantly fighting on a street level.  Dojo training will not make you savage, and that savage is just what you're up against.

a MAJOR consideration people let fall by the wayside when they take martial arts is this..

you may be physically prepared for an assault...

but you will NEVER be MENTALLY prepared for such a thing until it actually happens to you.

the people who would attack you in these scenarios ARE prepared and they are MORE than prepared...

They have internalized violence and disregard for others. your pain means NOTHING to them except possibly as a turn on.

if you have no direct experience with violence and the panicked fight or flight response it will produce in you...you are at an EXTREME disadvantage no matter how much martial arts you take.

Ive been the victim and in my young and stupid days i was one of the aggressors.  I came up in a violent and dangerous atmosphere. I have to live with it now...the fact that violence is a very real part of my being and if i want to keep the humanity i worked soooooooo hard to win back..i will be fighting the violence in me for the rest of my life.

all the jujitsu and whatever WILL NOT save you from a calculated criminal of the sort i used to be and spend my days with.

if i decided to attack someone again..they'd never see it coming. and there's no honor amongst theives and killers and rapists...they dont follow any kind of code..they arent going to even give you time to get into a stance or anything like that..


what you do is

avoid dangerous areas
not be alone in dangerous areas
if you HAVE TO be in a dangerous area..have your cellphone in hand with emergency services on speed dial.
the instant you realize you are about to get it..hit the speed dial button and run.

If one is attending a GOOD school under a GOOD instructor you will be ready if and when you run into trouble IF you have dilligently applied what you learned. A half way student in a good school will be only marginal at best-hence the warning-a little knowledge will get you killed. To imply these techniques will not work if done properly is wrong. Just ask a student of the late Bruce Lee if what he taught was effective. Ask anyone who studies Pankration if these techniques will work. I can assure you that they do.

Don't be a victim-Learn to defend yourself and live.

Against a street fighter, though? No. I'm very sorry, but no. Bruce Lee's sports would have very little effect other than probably be laughed at. (Which is a huge advantage in itself, though.)

Point is: In a real fight, techniques are bad. Because techniques are taught, not learnt. They're predictable.

Listen to Hauser, gals. They're completely right on that.

Me; I'd say: Martial arts are good. They teach about posture and demeanor, and those are key elements of avoiding a fight. Of not being attacked in the first place. If you are attacked: Fight up close and dirty. As soon as you incapacitate someone: Take a runner. Don't aim for the genitals; go for the throat and face. Don't scratch; use fists, feet and open-hand grabs. Twist, break, sprain, crush. Those are your only options. Because that's what your opponent will do.
And yes; size and strength do matter, as well as speed. Not the speed in landing a punch, but the speed with which you can rotate, twist, move your spine and shoulders, and..

Oh, well.. I'm not going to continue on this one. The easiest fights I had were against highly trained martial artists. Just.. Understand that, no matter how prepared you may think you are, no matter what kind of weapon you're holding, and no matter what your instincts say (fight or flight) your knees will be buckling with fear. Unless you are the aggressor, of course. That happened to me every time, and it was on a daily basis for years. I once brought a club. Wrenched out of my hand easily. I brought a knife. I'm thankful to this day they threw it away. I was held at gunpoint, but managed to outbluff him. (It's far harder to shoot someone who's standing right in front of you, looking you in the eyes.)

In other words: Don't get into trouble. If you see something happening: Walk away, and ring the cops. If people come at you, threatening: Cower until they really attack. Be submissive, and back away, until they really attack. Don't make the mistake of feeling invincible because of your training/weapon.

In response to some of the other posts, I do have to say I don't think there is a one size fits all strategy for defense and combat. The closest and most effective strategy is reasonable avoidance and awareness of your surroundings. Some people think that's paranoid, but that's up to you. Criminals often case targets before they attack. One of the things they look for is body language that tells them who is an easy target and who is not. Someone who acts or looks scared or nervous is going to attract their attention. Worse, is someone who is completely oblivious to their surroundings.

You want to be confident and aware at the same time. Suppose I'm walking down the street and a couple of rough-looking people are approaching me. I could quickly cross the street but if they are casing me that will alert them I'm already nervous about their presence and will likely egg on a possible attack. I could pretend I don't see them and keep walking their direction but then they could see I'm unaware and quickly attack as I'm not paying attention. What I would do instead is simply continue walking as normal and upon passing them give a quick nod and a smile. This tells them that I'm not afraid and I'm aware that they are there making me look much less like an easy target.

People who correct the problem of being unaware of their surroundings will avoid the majority of problems. Most people operate in "condition white" in public places which is bad. When you enter a place you should have a certain awareness of where your exits are, about how many people are in the place, the general atmosphere of the environment, and noted anyone acting out of the ordinary. You should be aware of who is behind you. Sadly most people think this is being paranoid. I call it being aware. It isn't that difficult to be in "condition yellow" once you get used to it.

As to actual fighting, I stand by what I said about creating distance. Whether the person is six inches from you, three feet, ten feet, or fifty feet will determine what actions you take. I don't think there is any hard and fast rule. No matter how much training you have, no real life situation will be identical to an example in a textbook. Weapons are useful only if you know how to use them, are willing to use them when needed, use them properly and in a tactical manner, and maintain retention on your weapons.

As to my Walmart example, me open carrying (or anyone else for that matter) in my state is generally a non-issue. Generally the only people who will care about me entering a store with a holstered gun are people who aren't up to any good in the first place or out-of-staters who aren't familiar with our laws. The fact that all of those people left so fast confirms my theory that they didn't belong there. Nobody in the store noticed or cared, only the people standing around eyeballing everyone. This was at a store in an area known for illegal aliens and this particular area has seen frequent Sheriff crackdowns.

Again, there are so many different tactics people can choose from. Every person should devote at least some time to beefing up security for themselves in the ways that they feel work best for them. In general, keeping doors locked, controlling who goes in and out of your house, being somewhat private about your lifestyle habits and routines, aware of your surroundings in public, and coming up with what-if scenarios and potential solutions to events can all combine to minimize your chance of being victimized.

Hi,

We do need to be aware of our surroundings and who is in front, behind and to the side of us. I have done Judo but also carry a personal alarm, they do work and confuses your assailant enough to run. My daughter was mugged several months ago late at night and nearly home. She set her personal alarm off and several people came out of their houses to see and the guy just grabbed her mobile and ran off. It could have been worse. So also get a personal alarm (a very noisy one).

Stardust   

Quote from: stardust on June 13, 2010, 02:42:58 AM
Hi,

We do need to be aware of our surroundings and who is in front, behind and to the side of us. I have done Judo but also carry a personal alarm, they do work and confuses your assailant enough to run. My daughter was mugged several months ago late at night and nearly home. She set her personal alarm off and several people came out of their houses to see and the guy just grabbed her mobile and ran off. It could have been worse. So also get a personal alarm (a very noisy one).

Stardust   

You know, this is the first I've heard of a personal alarm.  It's sort of the same in concept as the "police whistle" that is popular to carry, but at 130 dB, a personal alarm sounds like it could attract a lot more attention, and cause some serious hearing loss. 

Arena gladiators were one time a sport too but I wouldn't necessarily call those fighters ineffective on the street, in their time period.

Not all martial arts are dance around like a drunken monkey and base their effectiveness on a point system or the ability to perform a kata flawlessly.

That said, I'll take my military unit over your street gang anyday.   

We can all be bad arses if we want to.  Truth be told, we're all human, we're all vulnerable at one point in time or another, and the best we can do is be prepared mentally and physically.
Regardless of how you might make yourself more capable of taking care of yourself, there will ALWAYS be someone bigger and badder and faster... luckier and smarter... whatever.

I think it's pointless to argue, especially here on the net where everyone can be a superhero or supervillain. But offering advice and being supportive? Priceless.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on June 13, 2010, 08:36:27 AM
You know, this is the first I've heard of a personal alarm.  It's sort of the same in concept as the "police whistle" that is popular to carry, but at 130 dB, a personal alarm sounds like it could attract a lot more attention, and cause some serious hearing loss.

Yep, you will not be able to hear again for a month but at least you'll be safe, lol.

Stardust

Quote from: stardust on June 13, 2010, 02:05:13 PM
Yep, you will not be able to hear again for a month but at least you'll be safe, lol.

Stardust

hehe or longer ... Those alarms are painful.   at around 100db most people start feeling the pain ... 130db is just nasty.

I don't think they're meant, so much, to gain attention as they are meant to put people in pain.   Sort of the same thing as Mace or Pepper Spray, I suppose.

140 dB is a gunshot.  120 dB is a thunderclap from a bolt of lightning hitting right next to you.  130 dB is half the perceived loudness of a gunshot, and twice that of a bolt of lightning, and it's going on continuously, right next to you.  Permanent hearing loss starts at 85 dB.  I can't believe it's legal.  That's just insane.

I think we all can agree that nobody is invincible, not even the top general of the U.S. Marine Corps. However, the more steps you take, the more you mimimize your chances of being injured or killed. It becomes a probability issue. Simple steps may take your chances of being injured/killed from 1/50 to 1/10,000. Rather than make another long post, I can sum up the steps everyone should take as follows:

1. Situational awareness
a. Pay attention to your environment when in public.
b. Relax awareness at home while utilizing other methods of protection (locked doors, dog, alarm, etc.).
c. Avoid environments where you know there is likely to be a problem and you don't need to go there.

2. Mental training
a. Formulate "what-if" scenarios about possible situations and think about how you would solve them (i.e. home invasion, witnessing an armed robbery, etc.).
b. Understand what force you are capable of using for your own defense (or on behalf of others) and be willing to use it when necessary (don't pull a gun if you aren't willing to use it).

3. Defense Tactics
a. Flee when you can (don't let ego get in the way if running away can save your life).
b. If you have to physically fight (fists, feet, etc.) fight dirty until you can get away.
c. Carry weapons you are comfortable with, learn proper retention techniques, and use them properly when necessary.

4. Legal help
a. If someone violates you or your property, try to get as much information you can to help get them prosecuted (description, cell phone photo, license plate).
b. If you have injured or killed someone in self-defense, do not talk to the police or admit anything until you have a lawyer. Let the attorney handle it for you.

Quote from: Epigania on June 13, 2010, 04:53:15 PM
hehe or longer ... Those alarms are painful.   at around 100db most people start feeling the pain ... 130db is just nasty.

I don't think they're meant, so much, to gain attention as they are meant to put people in pain.   Sort of the same thing as Mace or Pepper Spray, I suppose.

Anyone know if they are legal in Australia? Who makes them? Don't make a spam just which company


Cindy

defense devices.com

personal alarms are under personal defense devices

Mace and spitfire are 2 brand names