Quote from: TheAetherealMeadow on June 27, 2010, 09:15:35 PM
I don't think child-bearing is a "womanly" thing. Wombs and vaginas are just organs, nothing else. I fail to see what is so inherently gendered about them.

... Only females have wombs. Most females, upwards of 99% out of the entire population I'd guess, turn out to remain female. What's /not/ so inherently gendered? Men don't have wombs. Women do. That's why we change. Binary system. Very, very, very few escape it, or modify themselves within it. You're deluding yourself.

Quote from: DaddySplicer on June 27, 2010, 09:34:00 PMBinary system.

Hmm. Then I guess you don't recognize androgynes, non/antigender folks, bigenders, trigenders, gender-fluid people, and whatever other nontraditional folks happen to be floating around?

Quote from: Arch on June 27, 2010, 09:56:02 PM
Hmm. Then I guess you don't recognize androgynes, non/antigender folks, bigenders, trigenders, gender-fluid people, and whatever other nontraditional folks happen to be floating around?

I said following that: Very, very, very few people escape it.

I can't understand how a trans man could deal with the dysphoria I imagine that would conjure, but to each his own.

I want babies btw!

Quote from: Jen on June 27, 2010, 10:03:08 PM
I can't understand how a trans man could deal with the dysphoria I imagine that would conjure, but to each his own.

I want babies btw!

I couldn't handle it (I mean, I got through it, but not without some serious physical and psychological scarring, and I did things that weren't good for the baby either), but not everyone is as profoundly affected by hormonal changes. A guy who's stable and has a strong support system can get through it.

Quote from: DaddySplicer on June 27, 2010, 10:00:02 PMI said following that: Very, very, very few people escape it.

Sorry, I thought you must mean something else by that remark because you pretty clearly indicated that Thomas Beatie shouldn't be doing what he's doing (meaning that he hasn't escaped the binary?) and that TheAetherealMeadow is deluding herself (implying that nobody at all escapes the binary?). I wasn't trying to quote you out of context.

I'm still a bit confused about what your opinion is. If Beatie says that he's a man and that he's secure in his sense of self, and then he has a baby or three, why can't he be one of the very, very, very few that you mention? Or are you saying that he is? I'm all mixed up.

Agrees with Daddysplicer & Silverfang.

If they're not dysphoric, why are they transitioning? For the fun of it? Entertainment?

I'm going to blunt here. If you believe that you're a man, you wouldn't do anything female. I also strongly believe that if you're a transman and do this sort of stuff, you probably don't even think or consider yourself a man cause you're clearly not playing the role of one. So, why transition? Yes, I also don't understand people who wanna be stuck in-between. It's either you're going to be a male or female. Gay or straight. I don't like the whole idea of pansexuals, asexuals so many sexualities and these are the type of people who always say "i love a person inside them, its not about the looks." etc. That's load of bull. Lust comes before any sort of emotions. You see a person, you get attracted to them and thats not cause you can see right through their heart, is it? We don't have x-ray eyes to know what sort of person they are. We are judging people by looks. Totally off topic but thought I'll point that out.

I don't think men should carry the baby.

Maybe there just not thst dysphoric about the parts needed to carry a kid but are about their chest, hips etc.

I personally couldn't ever be pregnant, I want hysto as soon as I can, I can't stand those organs but I don't hold it against other guys if they want a kid using there own parts. I don't understand the need to have your 'own' child but many people feel it and if you have the organs that you need why not use them if you can?

@Arch: Thomas Beatie can do whatever the hell he wants. It's not up to me or anyone else to say that he can't. However, because of his choice, he willingly submits his candidacy to be a public topic of controversy. Precisely for which, I will voice my own opinion about the matter.

By the word "binary", I am referring to our species' predisposition to be either female or male. For the most part, that's how it goes. Not many vary  extraordinarily from that. However, all transsexuals (Beatie included, you see), obviously do. But we are a very, very small number of people in comparison with the whole of the rest of the human population. Ergo, "Very, very, very few escape it."

As for my comment on TheAetherealMeadow deluding herself, I was referring to the fairy tale version of culture she seems to have, where female reproductive organs are not immediately recognised and gendered as female. Because they are. Even if that's uncomfortable for us, that's the reality of the matter. Most of us have reproductive organs that are completely opposite of what we feel we should have been born with. To subject yourself to a fantasy in which people accept other people for what they say they are rather than using their instinctive nature, based on our binary system, is ridiculous.

We have a very small protective net here, as fellow transsexuals, but it doesn't extend far out into the rest of our world. I'm not saying that can't change, with a lot of time, but for now, female organs are female gendered, just as male organs are male gendered. That is why we're transsexuals.

I hope this cleared up any questions you had.

What difference does it make?

Pregnant men make their decisions and you make yours.

No one has brought up that there is a subset of men who don't bond with someone else's child. They want their own child no matter what. I'm not even a real man and I'd want my own kids and not some other person's. Maybe that is part of the drive to suffer a pregnancy.

Maybe.

And not that I want any children at all.

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Post Merge: June 28, 2010, 08:31:55 AM

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I guess, as a nonbinary, I'm ridiculously happy to see someone defy convention and gender boundaries.

Quote from: Nathan. on June 28, 2010, 06:27:49 AM
Maybe there just not thst dysphoric about the parts needed to carry a kid but are about their chest, hips etc.

I personally couldn't ever be pregnant, I want hysto as soon as I can, I can't stand those organs but I don't hold it against other guys if they want a kid using there own parts. I don't understand the need to have your 'own' child but many people feel it and if you have the organs that you need why not use them if you can?

Chest, hips? That's all? Then they're not much of a man, are they? Females aren't happy with their chest and hips but I don't see them transition. So, if these so called guys wanna get pregnant, they should just stay as a girl.

Quote from: accord03 on June 28, 2010, 04:57:26 AM
Agrees with Daddysplicer & Silverfang.

If they're not dysphoric, why are they transitioning? For the fun of it? Entertainment?

I'm going to blunt here. If you believe that you're a man, you wouldn't do anything female. I also strongly believe that if you're a transman and do this sort of stuff, you probably don't even think or consider yourself a man cause you're clearly not playing the role of one. So, why transition? Yes, I also don't understand people who wanna be stuck in-between. It's either you're going to be a male or female. Gay or straight. I don't like the whole idea of pansexuals, asexuals so many sexualities and these are the type of people who always say "i love a person inside them, its not about the looks." etc. That's load of bull. Lust comes before any sort of emotions. You see a person, you get attracted to them and thats not cause you can see right through their heart, is it? We don't have x-ray eyes to know what sort of person they are. We are judging people by looks. Totally off topic but thought I'll point that out.

I don't think men should carry the baby.

I feel I'm male, but I do plenty of things female.  I don't identify as a masculine male, I identify as a feminine/gay male trapped in a girl's body.  And yet I would like kids at some point in time.  I'd prefer adoption, but I'm not against carrying a child of any sort.  I'm bisexual/pansexual.  I really don't care what someone's gender identity is and as long as they look somewhat decent (well, my version) and have a good personality, I'm willing to give you a chance.  Pansexuals (from my understanding) don't care about the gender identity of the person so they're fine dating MtFs, FtMs, etc.

I sort of agree, I don't think men should carry a child if they've transitioned half-way or most of the way.  Before that, I really don't care.  Actually, I really don't care if they decide to carry a child later on.  It's their choice and things can come up that cause them to hold off full transition so they can carry a child.

Umm....my chest causes me the greatest amount of dysphoria because I see it all of the time.  I don't see my uterus and ovaries so they cause me the least amount of dysphoria.  So, I'm more likely to partially transition and just get the chest taken care of.  I'd like my hips taken care of, too, but the uterus and stuff can stay until I'm done getting the job I want and when I'm done having children.

Quote from: DaddySplicer on June 28, 2010, 08:26:03 AMI hope this cleared up any questions you had.

Pretty much. But my non-trans friends seem to be a lot more resilient and accepting of non-binary parts and behavior than your non-trans friends seem to be--based on what you've said, anyway. Are you living in the Bible Belt? I seem to recall your saying something about that.

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Post Merge: June 28, 2010, 11:55:22 AM

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Quote from: accord03 on June 28, 2010, 04:57:26 AMI don't like the whole idea of pansexuals, asexuals so many sexualities and these are the type of people who always say "i love a person inside them, its not about the looks." etc. That's load of bull. Lust comes before any sort of emotions. You see a person, you get attracted to them and thats not cause you can see right through their heart, is it? We don't have x-ray eyes to know what sort of person they are. We are judging people by looks. Totally off topic but thought I'll point that out.

Accord, initial physical attraction is not synonymous with love. It is perfectly possible, even probable, for a person (whether gay, straight, or something else) to find a person physically attractive but then base love or the lack of it on who the person is.

When I was younger, I saw plenty of attractive guys that I was drawn to. Most of them I didn't fall in love with because I didn't click with them mentally. A few I did click with, and I fell in love. Unless they're looking for casual sex or a superficial relationship, that seems to be how most people operate in situations involving full mutual choice.

It makes perfect sense to me that a pansexual person would find all sorts of people attractive regardless of gender/sex but then would fall in love based on the person's character and personality.

Think about it.

Quote from: accord03 on June 28, 2010, 09:58:12 AM

Chest, hips? That's all? Then they're not much of a man, are they? Females aren't happy with their chest and hips but I don't see them transition. So, if these so called guys wanna get pregnant, they should just stay as a girl.

Just look at Buck Angel, he's a man but he doen't have loads of dysphoria with his genitals.

Also how woman hate their chest is different to transmen, we hate ours for just being there woman hate theirs for being to big/small.

Quote from: Arch on June 28, 2010, 11:44:08 AM
Are you living in the Bible Belt? I seem to recall your saying something about that.

No. I'm well cocooned in a gay/trans-friendly community. It's simply me voicing these opinions. However, I don't have any trans friends, outside of those I talk to sparingly on the internet. My family, my entire family, accepted and guarded the fact that I was transsexual, to allow me to grow up as a boy. I had all male friends. I have only male interests. I don't understand femininity. So, like any ignorant bigot, I'm affronted by this. I can't relate to it. I may be voicing the opinion of bible slammers, or others who have never been exposed to this world view, because I had the luxury of being able to grow up and fit in as I wanted to, unlike so many here who have received the worst and most undeserved punishments for just being born differently.

When I mentioned the Bible Belt, I wasn't trying to imply that you have Bible-Belt attitudes. I was mainly trying to suss out your current environment, the people who immediately surround you, because of these remarks:

Quote from: DaddySplicer on June 28, 2010, 08:26:03 AMTo subject yourself to a fantasy in which people accept other people for what they say they are rather than using their instinctive nature, based on our binary system, is ridiculous.

...

We have a very small protective net here, as fellow transsexuals, but it doesn't extend far out into the rest of our world.

Even before transition, I didn't have a problem being accepted as male by other non-trans people in my circle of friends, acquaintances, and coworkers. I guess I got a better deal than most, but it really isn't a fantasy everywhere. I know what you mean about the "protective net" that doesn't go much beyond trans circles, but mine included pretty much everyone I knew.

It sounds like you had pretty decent parents and a fortunate upbringing for a trans kid. That seems to be happening more and more with the younger crowd. I'm glad you were able to have a more comfortable childhood than some of us had. I, for one, still feel a twinge of resentment when I visit a toy store and see all the "boy" things I was not allowed to have. And that is just the tip of a very large and cold iceberg, as I'm sure you can imagine.

But do remember that a lot of activities and preferences are coded as "male" or "female" by the society that formed us and are by no means biologically inherent to one sex or the other. If you get too dogmatic about which behaviors are one or the other, you can wind up with a somewhat cockeyed view of the thousands of little non-trans, non-lesbian girls who play with Tonka trucks or the many little straight cis boys who wish they could have a doll just like their sister's. Some of this forced "genderization" is quite harmful, so you wind up with guys like my ex, who can't talk about his feelings until he's about ready to explode (and even then, he does a pretty half-assed job), and perfectly competent girls who are afraid to take math classes because they've been trained to believe that girls are no good at math. Not that this is what you're doing, although to me, your condemnation of Thomas Beatie and others like him does seem to be a trifle overdeveloped. But that's your position, and I respect your right to hold it.

Frankly, I don't understand the guy either.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I'm allergic to soap anyway.

Quote from: Nathan. on June 28, 2010, 11:55:30 AM

Just look at Buck Angel, he's a man but he doen't have loads of dysphoria with his genitals.

Also how woman hate their chest is different to transmen, we hate ours for just being there woman hate theirs for being to big/small.

Buck Angel is a disgrace to the transman community. I think his a fake.

Quote from: accord03 on June 29, 2010, 08:30:34 AMBuck Angel is a disgrace to the transman community. I think his a fake.

Okay. Knock yourself out.

Quote from: accord03 on June 29, 2010, 08:30:34 AM
Buck Angel is a disgrace to the transman community. I think his a fake.

No porn star ever has ever been a disgrace to any one person, community or movement ever.

Don't you ever, EVER besmirch the good and sacred name of pornography or persons therein  for a simple forum discussion. Buck Angel is a good, good man, and he's no fake.

As a moderator, I have to say that I'm not pleased with the direction this thread has been taking. Please keep in mind the Terms of Service, specifically rule #5 and rule #10:

5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone, obscene, pornographic, intended to titillate, or depict illegal acts will not be permitted.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    * Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    * Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Some posts are skating pretty close to the edge. Be careful, fellas. I don't want to have to lock this topic.