Quote from: Melissa on November 15, 2006, 08:38:12 AM

Quote from: Kate on November 15, 2006, 08:32:53 AM
I swear there's no way I'll ever pass without FFS, and yet my wife and therapist laugh hysterically whenever I say that, so... who knows? We tend to each be our own worst critics.

Yep.  Besides, I thought you already did get ma'amed in the supermarket.   I think a lot of passing is accepting many of the features we may consider "male" and realizing they can be female as well.  A lot of it is self-acceptance.  I'll just say that I used to be like that and think I would need major FFS and now I have almost completely accepted how I look and am currently not considering FFS.  The times I do is when I feel insecure.

Melissa

FFS won't change your personality and I think that trips up passing for most people, more then anything else.  From my last transition attempt I always remember the quote "You start passing when you stop caring about passing or not and just be yourself."

While there are always exeptions, I think its basically a true statement.

You are right in that passing involves more than just how your face looks.

Melissa

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
I went to Dr Zukowski in Chicago (Julie's Dr Y)

I didn't want to say anything personally negative so I gave the two doctors anonymous IDs.  But I also don't want to mislead anyone.  Mark Zukowski is Dr X.  Raymond Konior is Dr Y.  "Zukowski will make you passable, Konior will make you beautiful" was the quote.

Dawn, I'm not saying Z didn't do all you said or that anyone could have done better.  FFS is a very personal thing and all that matters is that the patient is happy.

Julie

Actually I'm glad you mentioned names.  I had never heard of Dr. Raymond Konior.  I think many of us have our opinion about hwo is the best and who isn't, but we are entitled to those opinions.

Melissa

Even on a forum dedicated solely to FFS Konior is anything but a household name.  Zukowski has made FFS a major part of his practice, for Konior it's probably just a small fraction.  But when someone like a TG therapist is that impressed, you have to give it some consideration.  When I'm ready, I'll check both Zukowski and Konior out.  There are things I have to know first hand before making a decision like this.

Julie

Hiee,

  I think way to many don't give HRT and their own self confidence a chance before its off to the Plastique shop. I don't consider myself to be particularly feminine looking at all. I can say though that when I stop in the grocery store or some other store on the way home from work, in my work clothes and usually pretty grimy (re:dirty) I am treated like any other woman. Sometimes I get the feeling that some woman actually admire me for working in a prodominately male occupation. I feel unequivicolly that I am female and that is what I think does it myself IE Self Image and Esteem.

  Now to eat my words a bit. I may and that is a very very BIG MAY get implants if I don't at least increase again in size by next Sept as I did in the past year to year. Being in my mid 50's I do think though that it is much easier to meld in with the other woman. The down side for me being that I tend to dress youngish, Blame that on Puberty .

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 04:19:18 PM
I didn't want to say anything personally negative so I gave the two doctors anonymous IDs.  But I also don't want to mislead anyone.  Mark Zukowski is Dr X.  Raymond Konior is Dr Y.  "Zukowski will make you passable, Konior will make you beautiful" was the quote.

Dawn, I'm not saying Z didn't do all you said or that anyone could have done better.  FFS is a very personal thing and all that matters is that the patient is happy.

Actually, now that you mention it, I recall hearing that at the Be-all this year.  I don't know anything about Konior
so I can't comment.  Dr Z worked miracles with me and at 52, I never considered beauty an option.  Anyone considering
FFS should choose a surgeon after careful research and also choose someone they are personally comfortable with.  I
did extensive research and Konior's name never came up.  That would be a concern for me.  Of course, if you are able
to meet some of his other patients, as I did with Dr Z, then you would have a first hand opportunity to see for yourself
what kind of work he does. 

Dawn

Wow, cool thread!
1st off Melissa if that is your cat he/she (cannot tell from the head shot) hehe.. is a cutie!
Elizabeth, you do and you know male features aside i've had tons of people tell me how much me and my mom look alike and how me and my sister share features, sadly the youngest does not look like us? Hmmm the old postman kid's syndrome i fear, lol
Anomi .. You look really good in your picture, maybe you do not even need surgery ?
Wow to be so lucky!
Excellent post Julie Marie..
I'm just following along I'll end this now and not bore everyone!
Enjoy the chocolate cheesecake!  it weighs, GET THIS.. 6 1/2 lbs!
Ricki

I want it for the plain simple reason that I cannot handle being ridiculed or treated with disdain or treated like an outcast. Do I know this will happen? Not really, but I do know society can be cruel and non attractive women dont do as good in society as attractive ones. That is not how its supposed to be but that is the fact of life. Beauty wins. And since nobody is going to check in-between my legs to see what sex I am, my priority will be from the neck up. FFS is second on my list to assimilate womanhood, the first things being HRT/electrolysis. Not only do I feel FFS is necessary, I want it. I want to look like a woman, not a man that has been feminized. If I had transitioned in my teens it wouldnt be an issue. But at 38 the skull has features that cannot be erased by HRT no matter the dosing or type.

Others are stronger and have the ability or attitude to tell the world it shouldnt or doesnt matter. "I am a woman, accept me or don't".  I feel it does matter to me how geneticly feminine I can make myself look. I'm telling the world I'm changing genders and sex and will be under the microscope regardless of what people like to believe. I'm forcing them to accept me as the real me, I need to look as good and feminine as I possibly can for them and me. I want to be able get up and run to the doughnut shop with no makeup and my hair in a ponytail and get mammed because with FFS there would be no way I could be mistaken for a man.

I want it because I dont want to make waves in society or force myself as a feminized male upon it because I am not wanting to fight or draw unwanted attention to myself and deal with confrontation that genetic women dont have to face. I want to blend in seamlessly and fit in. FFS will be a huge step and I personaly feel it is 100x's more important then what cannot be seen such as SRS. Like I said in an earlier post, I may not be a "TS" and I was a "Pickle" because SRS is not what I consider the most important thing in becoming a woman in society.

I will have SRS eventually to finish things off, but the sooner I can have FFS the quicker I will be able to be my true self and the woman in the mirror I've always known was there.

Perception is everything, as the saying goes.

In todays world Men are still taken at face value and women on the value of their face. Feminimity in the form of percieved beauty is a value most women aspire to.

FFS is one avenue available to improve our lives and acceptance into society, but it is part of a package that must include voice, facial hair removal, mannerisms and a high level of confidence and acceptance of our own abilities.

Unless we are castrated young (before puberty) and start on hormones the degree of changes to the facial area are minimal and for most people the ravages of testosterone are their for all to see. Hormones will not change the bone structure.

I had 10 hours of surgery in 2001, to alter the bone structure of my face and eliminate some of the traditional male traits (brow bossing, tracheal shave, squarer jaw, along with feminisation of my nose.

Over the following year, my pass rate went to a level where I was totally confident and acceptent of myself in public, which made a massive difference to me (despite my percieved other issues with body ).

It is expensive and I accept many people may never afford FFS, with SRS being considered a priority.

5 years on from FFS, the changes in my appearance (from my old male photos) are quite remarkable and have been a major factor in achieveing how I can live my life now.

Buffy

Julie,
   Like someone else said, I think you look very beautiful. I don't see any problems with you at all. Now, I'm just looking at a picture but what I see is very nice looking. I for one was not interested in FFS. I don't have a Adams Apple so was not concerned with that. I was really concerned with me. I didn't like what I saw in the mirror or what I felt like. I wanted to be whole. I transitioned when I was in my early 50's so having a wrinkle or two does not concern me. I think I might want a nose job, but have been told you are fine. Just like another lady said about her mother. Well, my mother and I look very much alike and my grandma we could be sisters. My mom does geneology and sent me a picture of a great grandmother or maybe it was two greats, I don't remember, but Pat said that is you. So I have all my features on the fem. side. The only thing I have that they don't is my bigness. So, I'm happy without the FFS. I don't care if someone else wants it as that is what they need for them to pass. I will not pass judgement on them for how they want to transition. I had a hair stylist tell me that she has had clients who have had face lifts and they only last about 5 years then they will have to have another one or they will turn old real fast. I like to think that I'm turning old gracefully. If you transition at a young age you probalbly won't have to have anything done. The older you are the harder it is, but then again you are old and who cares. Just my thoughts.
Sheila

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 14, 2006, 08:42:18 PM
But now, my mind is racked every night.  OMG, I have an Adam's apple now.  I find myself wearing my shirts buttoned up high, or hiding it with my hands.

Wear scarves, it is cold weather season.

Quote from: Ricki on November 15, 2006, 08:19:05 PM
1st off Melissa if that is your cat he/she (cannot tell from the head shot) hehe.. is a cutie!

Thanks Ricki.  It's actually my ex's cat, but he's my favorite.  His name is Bandit.  I was the one who named him.   I loved the picture so I went with it.

Melissa

I've always liked my face, and people have commented on the smallness of my nose and my pretty eyes, and once my therapist had told me that she hardly noticed my Adam's apple. So I will forego FFS, and will save up for SRS. 

Hey Dawn, I remember seeing your pictures, and you do look 100% better now. Life is so grand!!! 

Gina

Lori that was an awesome statement you mirrored some of my thoughts very well for me!
thanks
ricki

I've heard natal females, I personally hate the term GG, I think its derogatory towards everyone, complain about their huge foreheads, so that's always something to think about.

I think its like a lot of things, less is more.  I don't like my nose, but that has nothing to do with my gender - I just don't like it either way.  I think my chin could use some work.  I suppose I could persuaded to get my brow touched up, definitely nothing major, but all the same I'd leave it the way it was and be just as happy.

When I was on hormones before, it was almost scary how many of my mother's facial features especially her cheekbones, came through.

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
I needed it, I've had it and it has been nothing short of a miracle for me.  I went from barely
passable to fully female after undergoing the full suite of procedures and I wouldn't hesitate
to do it again.  It was quite simply the best money I have ever spent.  I went to Dr Zukowski
in Chicago (Julie's Dr Y) and I think he is the best.  I had a Neanderthal brow-ridge that he
reduced to a flat feminine profile.  Hormones will do a lot but they will not change the brow-ridge
and the lower flat eyebrow profile that most men have.  If you don't need it, I think that's wonderful
but if seamless passing and stealth are part of your future I don't know how you can not consider
these procedures (other than the cost).  Regrettably, I am no longer comfortable posting a pre-op
photo of myself so I am unable to provide photographic evidence of my metamorphosis.  Kate has
seen them so she can comment if she wishes.

Dawn

Most women like Dawn and myself who have had FFS feel the same way. It literally changes your life.

This topic can be a very divisive issue as many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do. Years ago, there wasn't much trans awareness and women who presented as female fairly well "passed" without it.

Doug Ousterhout who is the pioneer in FFS and my surgeon but also almost a friend has told me  a few stories about patients who come for help. He said he is getting a lot of women who are post-op and have lived years in the role who are coming in for FFS because they no longer "pass." People nowadays are trans-aware and can easily see through the make-up. In cities where there are a lot of trans women, even "100%" passable women like me will get clocked.

The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.
Posted on: November 16, 2006, 09:32:19 AM

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Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 06:43:49 AM
There's a FFS surgeon not even 20 minutes away from my house who is described as an artist.  In comparing him to a very popular FFS surgeon (Dr.X) she said Dr X will make you passable, Dr Y will make you beautiful.  That has really got me thinking.  Thank you Robyn for the kind words but I have been read before just because of my face.  I can't change my bone structure.  I'll forever battle my deep voice but if I had a decidely feminine face it would sure make life easier.  And if it was beautiful it might open some doors for me that would normally be closed.

A lot of the girls here look to me like natural women but I'm seeing a 2D picture that most likely is the best one they can find.  That's what I do.  You'll never see a bad picture of me.  Why would I want to put my worst foot forward?  Kassandra has seen me in the flesh and if she was totally honest she'd probably tell you FFS would make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend $40-50K to get that look.  A friend did a comparison between the famous Dr X and Dr Y and found Dr Y to be half the cost of Dr X.  And he's less invasive so there's a shorter healing time.

People will read your face first and they will do it in a couple of seconds.

Julie
 
   

I spent 18,600 to get where I am now but I am going to get my jaw and chin done, another 13k, but I was blessed with a very cute nose so I didn't need a rhinoplasty.

Quote from: Ricki on November 16, 2006, 05:55:31 AM
Lori that was an awesome statement you mirrored some of my thoughts very well for me!
thanks
ricki

You are welcome. I guess to sum up my feelings, its not just what I want, its knowing what society is willing to accept. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 09:52:23 AM
The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.

Out of curiousity what age ranges would you apply to early, mid and late transition?

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 09:52:23 AM
many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do.

There are TSs who are self-confident enough to remain somewhat ambiguous. I don't think they're delusional - they're just very comfortable with who they are. For some, yes, it may be a case of sour grapes. But not for all.

I don't think I could do it though - being ambiguous that is. Maybe for a few months, but the *constant* stares and snickers would eventually wear me down. The harsh reality seems to be that most people will never consider me "truly female" unless I remove every last artifact of maleness (if that's even possible), and even THEN once/if they find out I wasn't born a girl, everything becomes invalid anyway.

Plus, to be honest, *I* don't want to look ambiguous to myself. I'm female, and I want to LOOK female. To the degree that I don't, well, that equals my dysphoria. I'm perfectly content within my own mind and emotions finally, but the physicality... that needs work

FFS?  Yes.....while I don't have the brow issue common with genetic males or an adams apple or particularly masculine features I think I want some "tweaking"    

Besides...I'm approaching 40 and starting to see a few wrinkles around my eyes when I smile.  Since I have been staring at my face for almost 40 years I think maybe I've gotten so used to it that I don't really see the things that might stick out as masculine to other people.  I don't want to be delusional to the point that I don't consider all my options........