Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
"... are you proud of being TS? ... I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain."

The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm "proud" of my high score on MarioCart or the gold star my kindergarten teacher gave me for the picture I drew of a cat or whatever. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm proud of my puppy for learning how not to pee on the kitchen floor, or in the sense that I'm proud of the noble men and women overseas defending my Freedom from the forces of Evil, or in the sense that I'm proud to be a Texan.*

I'm also not proud in the sense of committing the cardinal sin of placing myself above others; at least, not in any way that relates to my trans status.

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be. And I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

What I don't get is why anyone would be proud of anything that didn't ever cause them pain or hardship. What's to be proud of?

It seems to me your are proud of your achievements at overcoming being TS then actually being TS, like i mentioned before no one wants to be TS, if they do they have a screw loose somewhere, but going through everything changes you into a stronger person, sadly some people die from the attempt.  If you stop and think of it, it can be the scariest thing you ever do you have to be willing to give up everything you treasure in life, your family, your friends, your career, and even your life when you choose this path there is no guarantees and its only the strength of your hope that helps you continue....

So reading your post it seems that your not proud of being TS, you are just proud of yourself for being strong enough to deal with it.  There is a difference in the two. LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI, TS aren't proud to be TS, they are only proud they survived it.... 

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does... 
-snip-
Are you the same? or am i just unique in that....?

If given the choice to change the past and be born a perfectly healthy baby boy instead of the little "mishap" at birth, I'd think about it. I'd consider it.
I won't lie, I would be terribly tempted even.
But then, I look around myself, and I start to think about the things that would have turned out different for the change.

You see, it wouldn't just be the genitals that were different.
When I was 15, I moved to Reykjavík (in with my dad) in part to be with a boy I knew. I never would have dated him if I had been male, since he was straight.
If I'd never dated him, maybe I wouldn't have gone to Rvk. And then I wouldn't have met Fjóna, my best friend for years. And if I hadn't met her I'd never gone to the goth nights and met my first husband. And if I hadn't met him I wouldn't have my daughter and also, I wouldn't have started playing Dark Age of Camelot and I wouldn't have met (through that game) the Swede I partnered up with and lived with after my marriage fell apart. And if I hadn't gone to Sweden I wouldn't have met PP, and if I hadn't met him I wouldn't have found out about otherkin and I wouldn't have joined Other Haven. And if I hadn't joined Other Haven, I wouldn't have met my current partner, lover, husband and best friend (one person).
I also wouldn't have met Archer, Gesigewigu's, K, etc, etc, etc, .. people I call friends, people I love.

Yes, it's probable I would have had other friends instead, other partners, other loves. But I don't know anything about these other people, who I know are the people I have.
And I truly love the people I have.

I'd lay down my life for my partner. I'd give my last dollar for any of these friends.

I'd take the time to look at these things, and I would choose not to make the change.

Who I am is defined not only by my mind, but by my body.
My body has, in part, shaped the life that I have lived and the experiences I have gotten through it, both bad and good.
What I have experienced, what I have lived through, has created the person I am today.
I wouldn't be "me" if I had been born a perfectly happy baby boy. I'd be a whole other person. I might not even be a person who "I" could respect. I don't know who I'd be.

I consider myself a reasonable intelligent, and honorable man.
I take a measure of pride in who I am, and my brain-body mismatch has been a factor in creating the person who I am.

I don't find my transsexualism something to be shameful, nor do I see it as something to be proud of in the sense that you're proud of your achievements.
But I do take enough pride in who I am to not feel the need to hide, or to excuse myself in any way.

Yes, being trans causes me pain, but I refuse to allow it to cause me any more pain than it has to. I accept it's inherent pain (the undeniable realization made every morning that the body isn't what it should be) and seek to alleviate it by making the necessary changes, but I refuse to accept any unnecessary pain caused by it (shame, jealousy, guilt, excessive wishful thinking, obsessing over what-ifs, etc, etc, etc).
This is a part of my life, for better or worse, but it isn't my whole life. No more than my eyesight is. No more than the length of my legs is.

Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does...

I may not be proud to be TG (I don't really care for the term TS so I don't use it), but I am definitely proud to be ME. I'm happy to be me. That's something I have never been able to say ever before in my life. Not knowing myself, and hating myself, and not understanding anything I felt or why I felt it was the worst feeling I could imagine. No, I would not choose to be TG, but what is the point in wasting energy stressing and worrying and wishing and hating? Does all that negative energy do any good in the end?

I also do not think I have a "birth defect" or a "mental illness" or a "disease". I'm just one of millions of unique, special, and beautiful people on this planet trying to find her way. Maybe you feel so badly because of a lack of support. I'm one of the lucky ones, I know, since nearly everyone I hold dear is still with me after coming out and beginning transition. I'm also excited as hell that I don't have to HIDE my true desires, feelings, and actions. I don't have to wear the "man suit" any more and try to fit in. I can be me. Fully, beautifully flawed me. Why should I still be miserable?

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 05:13:16 PM
LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI

I am also "pansexual". (Goes under the B part of the GLB)
I'm married to another man.

I approach it the exact same way as being Trans.

None of the GLB people I know are "proud" of their sexuality like people are "proud" of their achievements.
They have a measure of pride in their own selves and refuse to hide themselves.

"Pride" is not about pride. It's about visibility, solidarity, and self confidence.
Not about how "awesome" it is to be Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Trans.
It's about the fact that we exist and we should not be made to feel ashamed for being who we are. That we ALL deserve the same rights.

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 05:13:16 PM
It seems to me your are proud of your achievements at overcoming being TS then actually being TS, like i mentioned before no one wants to be TS, if they do they have a screw loose somewhere, but going through everything changes you into a stronger person, sadly some people die from the attempt.  If you stop and think of it, it can be the scariest thing you ever do you have to be willing to give up everything you treasure in life, your family, your friends, your career, and even your life when you choose this path there is no guarantees and its only the strength of your hope that helps you continue....

So reading your post it seems that your not proud of being TS, you are just proud of yourself for being strong enough to deal with it.  There is a difference in the two. LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI, TS aren't proud to be TS, they are only proud they survived it....

You are focussing on part of what I said, but you're missing the most important part:

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. ...

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be.

[additionally, but less importantly]

I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

...

I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear. Also, I don't know a single person who is proud of their sexuality in the way you are talking about; though I definitely know gay/bi/pansexual people who are proud of getting over the bigotry they have had to face in order to come to terms with their sexuality. I think sometimes trans people (myself included) forget how hard just being gay can be for many people; it just seem so comparatively trivial.

--

When Miniar says this:

Quote from: Miniar on July 08, 2010, 07:34:26 PM
"Pride" is not about pride. It's about visibility, solidarity, and self confidence.

Well ... that's what I would call "pride," or at least it's something very close to it.

For reference, this is what I'm talking about:

Quote from: The Oxford English Dictionary
pride

I. The quality of being proud.

1. a. A high, esp. an excessively high, opinion of one's own worth or importance which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others; inordinate self-esteem.
  In this sense the first of the seven deadly or capital sins
1. b. An instance of this. rare in later use.
1. c. Personified, esp. as the first of the seven deadly sins. Now chiefly in proverbs, see sense 1d.
1. d. In proverbs. various examples from the Bible and Biblical commentary
1. e. With of specifying the cause or subject of pride.
  Now passing into senses 3 and 5. See also pride of life at Phrases 1.

2. Arrogant, haughty, or overbearing behaviour, demeanour, or treatment of others, esp. as exhibiting an inordinately high opinion of oneself.

3. a. A consciousness of what befits, is due to, or is worthy of oneself or one's position; self-respect; self-esteem, esp. of a legitimate or healthy kind or degree.
3. b. pride and prejudice (occas. prejudice and pride[/b]). Cf. PREJUDICE n. 1.

4. A person of whom, or thing of which, any person or group of people is proud; that which causes a feeling of pride in its possessor; (hence) the foremost, best, or most distinguished of a class, country, etc. In pride and joy: a cherished person or thing. See also Compounds 2.

5. The feeling of satisfaction, pleasure, or elation derived from some action, ability, possession, etc., which one believes does one credit. Chiefly in to take (a) pride in.

II. In extended use
(the OED lists various extended uses of the word, most obsolete or poetical)

So, Izumi, you're thinking of sense 5 of the word. I'm thinking mostly of 3a, as do the overwhelming majority of people at Pride. I don't know a single person who is "proud," in sense 5, or their sexuality, whether gay, straight, or anything else.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 11:36:42 PMI think sometimes trans people (myself included) forget how hard just being gay can be for many people; it just seem so comparatively trivial.

I agree on this.
I am an ftm and married to another man, and I have the full love and support of my people.
My friend chooses celibacy to the point where he refuses to acknowledge even having a sexuality (has told me that much) because he fears being bi or gay, because if he were, he'd face being rejected from his family, his job, and even death.

The difference between my life and his is drastic.
More so because of the differences between the countries in which we live.

Another friend of mine uses selective language to misinform his mum about the two blokes (me and hubby) he's about to go see this summer in Toronto, because otherwise she'd go on a rant about "the gays".

(Heck, I have a straight, white, cis-male friends whose lives have been harder than mine.)

The GLB crowd still doesn't have equal rights nor freedom from hate and abuse.

Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi

Quote from: Amy on June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM
I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

Because someone has to be last in line.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 14, 2010, 12:10:47 PM
Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi

It seems to me that homo- and bisexuality do indeed cross traditional gender lines, when seen from the point of view of a heteronormative, cisgendered society. This point of view dictates that people who are sexually interested in people of the same sex have indeed crossed a line, and have violated traditional gender roles.

So it isn't so much the gender role presentation (manly man, femme woman, femme man, manly woman), but the gender role with regards to romantic/erotic relationships. From a heteronormative, cisgendered point of view this cross the same line as being transgender.

At least, that's how it seems to be to me.

Quote from: Omika on July 14, 2010, 01:49:54 PM
Because someone has to be last in line.

Awww i dont want to be last in line, I would rather be the tomato in the Lettuce Gorganzola Bacon Tomato sandwich ^_^b.  Mmmm... heh, i think i will make a LGBT right now, it made me hungry.

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Post Merge: July 14, 2010, 03:27:17 PM

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Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 14, 2010, 02:22:33 PM
It seems to me that homo- and bisexuality do indeed cross traditional gender lines, when seen from the point of view of a heteronormative, cisgendered society. This point of view dictates that people who are sexually interested in people of the same sex have indeed crossed a line, and have violated traditional gender roles.

So it isn't so much the gender role presentation (manly man, femme woman, femme man, manly woman), but the gender role with regards to romantic/erotic relationships. From a heteronormative, cisgendered point of view this cross the same line as being transgender.

At least, that's how it seems to be to me.

Well aside from all that i think the reason why T is different from the rest is not the gender situation as much as people are looking to add trans sexuality into the DSM as a medical defect similar to intersex.  People dont like the term defect, i understand, i am just not implying that your less then human by that statement, it means you have things to overcome that other people do not.  A blind person is blind, their is no disputing that, they overcome their blindness with treatment and practice, so a TS is TS and with treatment lives a normal life, so far as i know their is no treatment for gay lesbian or bi, neither is it a medical condition which needs correction.

It is possible a TS can be gay, lesbian, or Bi, as well, in that case they should be a part of the LGB group imo.  However, some TS are hetero and just want to blend into society and fear the stigma that being grouped up with LGB can cause.  When your a member of large group it is possible for the something beneficial to raise everyone to a new level, but just as possible that the actions of a few people in the group can give the whole group a bad reputation in society.  Whether being separate from LGB or staying with them is a good or bad idea i am not 100% sure, but until we have an alternative we will never know.  I will just try and live stealth and see how well it goes, so far so good.

L, G, B, and T were banded together to fight our common enemies of ignorance, bigotry, and discrimination. It's sometimes an uneasy alliance. I do think it's ridiculous in the extreme that so many people can't just live and let live, or cannot understand that love has neither color nor gender (nor religion).

I am proud of having overcome my lifelong condition and reached a point where I now feel whole, complete, and cured. I am proud of this achievement. I don't care anything at all that I used to be a man, or whatever. I'm not ashamed of it; it's part of who I am. I'm not going around carrying a "PRIDE" banner, and I generally choose to live my life as stealth as possible. But if someone knows my past it really doesn't matter. If I can use my experience to help someone else struggling with this condition, then I will gladly do so. Since my surgery it just doesn't seem that big of a deal whether anyone knows or not. It's never a problem. My dysphoria and GID are soundly cured, and that's what matters most to me.

My surgeon, Dr. Christine McGinn, is also a transwoman who made the decision to be publicly open about it in part to provide a positive role model for other transfolk. In my eyes she is a first class hero.

As a practical matter, GLB defy gender stereotypes in the eyes of society by sleeping with people of a sex that is not considered appropriate.  "Straight" transgender people also defy gender stereotypes in the eyes of society by transitioning.  In that sense, we share a common enemy: societal taboos regarding defiance of gender stereotypes.

At the same time, a much higher number of transitioners identify as gay or lesbian post transition than in the general population.  And every transitioner is classified by society as GLB at some point, unless their sexual orientation orientation happens to change upon transition.  As a result, transgendered people, pre or post transition, are much more common in the GLB community than they are in society at large.  Thus, it is difficult for GLB peeps to simply tend to their own business without having a need to include the fairly common and highly visible transgendered people in their midsts, especially since the enemy is basically shared.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 14, 2010, 11:14:30 PM
At the same time, a much higher number of transitioners identify as gay or lesbian post transition than in the general population.  And every transitioner is classified by society as GLB at some point, unless their sexual orientation orientation happens to change upon transition.

My sexual orientation changed during transition.....
As a guy i liked girls, as a girl i like guys, as HRT continued my interest in women went poof, and replaced by wanting to be with men.   So .... what does that make me, i no longer have an interest in sleeping with women at all?

The point i was trying to make in the previous statement is that while TS are gay lesbian bi and straight, that's a separate issue from being TS and while the other 3 LGB are attacked by society because of their sexual preferences, a T is different in the respect that started out incorrect to begin with and have to correct it first, before we can even really know our orientation.  A T (mtf) dating a man is straight as is a T (ftm) dating a woman after all. 

I am saying that T should be separate because, TS typically want to just transition and blend into society, transitioning is treatment for a condition we have, we really dont have a choice, if we want to live normally we have to transition.  After that, yes a MTF can go on to date a woman but then she wouldnt be a T, she would be a lesbian.  See what i mean?

I dont know about everyone else, but i hate even the word transsexual, I am a woman.  Thats all i will ever be, and thats all i know how to be, so i would rather just be called that.  To be called a Transsexual woman even makes me sad.

See being part of LGB makes T into a sexual thing when its really not, and we get caught in sexual issues when we should be caught in medical issues.  I care about my SRS more then what sex i am attracted to.  If TS people were treated the same as someone who is born blind then the stigma that people have toward us in society would start to go away, and understanding would follow.  Next time you see a blind person you feel compassion for what they have to go through and feel good that they function normally in society, many are even amazed at their skill even though they are missing their sight, along with this you see them as still fully human.  Wouldnt it be interesting if society saw TS people the same way? "Oh, she was born with that, but look how she's overcome it, congratulations".  We in the TS community already praise each other in the same manner and are amazed at each other's progress, but since we are mixed in with LGB the fact that we have a medical issues are second to our sexual issues, which is NOT how it should be.

The idea that T should be different because T just want a "normal" life makes me a bit sad.
I'm a pansexual & polyamorous person. I don't think the life I want, married to a man, is "abnormal".
I don't think that being "not a straight person" is to have an "abnormal" life.

I want to be accepted as "just another human being" be it as a pansexual bloke, a polyamorous bloke, or a transsexual bloke.

In that way, I think that separating the T from the LGB is incorrect, if not a little bit homophobic.

Quote from: Miniar on July 15, 2010, 01:22:11 PM
The idea that T should be different because T just want a "normal" life makes me a bit sad.
I'm a pansexual & polyamorous person. I don't think the life I want, married to a man, is "abnormal".
I don't think that being "not a straight person" is to have an "abnormal" life.

I want to be accepted as "just another human being" be it as a pansexual bloke, a polyamorous bloke, or a transsexual bloke.

In that way, I think that separating the T from the LGB is incorrect, if not a little bit homophobic.

You misunderstand my intention, a normal life can be a normal gay lesbian bi, whatever.  A normal life simply means when you walk down the street and people dont stare at you and think your a freak.  Thats the normal life i speak of, you look at a gay man they can be gay and you wouldnt know it, you look at a transsexual depending on the degree, the reactions are mixed, regardless if they are gay or straight.  Would people have the same reactions to someone who is born blind or deaf or something else? NO, but they do for us, like i said because people put more emphasis on sexuality then they do on the medical aspects of what being TS.  Our goals sexually are the same as LGB, even if we win rights to gay marriage or whatever stigma disappears from being gay lesbian and bi, that still wont erase how people feel about TS, and that is why i believe we need a separate agenda, however meeting and working toward goals of sexuality are fine, I see no problem of an MTF woman joining a lesbian LGB group, but will she be treated like a woman? or a TS?  now you see what i am getting at... no matter what we are, when we are "found out" we become T, even if we see ourselves as a woman or man, and even people in the LGB community see us T and not like them.... and that is MORE sad.

In my GLBT group there's one MTF and me, She's seen and treated as a woman and I'm seen and treated as a bloke.
A person that had recently joined the meetings even had a "wtf?" moment with her because she's straight (as in, what the heck? why is she in charge? she's not even bi?). When she explained her situation, the issue went away, and she was after that treated as a woman none the less.

I don't want people to look at me as if I were blind.
I don't want sympathy nor awe.

I just want to go on with my life.

I know it's not intended to state that GLB "Life" is "abnormal", but that is undeniably what comes with it when the assertion is made that the "difference" between them and us is or includes that T just want a "normal" life.

What I want as a transsexual bloke is exactly the same as what I want as a pansexual bloke, in way of treatment from the world and rights.
I want to be me, who I am, what I am, the way I am, without being in any way discriminated against for it.
I want to be seen as normal.

I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".
Not strange, not weird, not wrong, not "less of a man" than a non TS bloke, not something horrible, or respectable, or in any way anything "other" than "a thing".

I want my transsexual status to be considered "something that happens sometimes, but can be treated, not a big deal".
I want to be able to say "brb, is time for my testosterone shot" in any setting and not get any "wtf?" responces.
Just like I want to be able to say "brb, hubby needs me" without the "wtf?".

My sexuality and my transsexual status are two, different, and unrelated things, which are being treated to the exact same type of bigotry.
If one is accepted, then the other may suffer less hate.
To fight this type of bigotry is in the best interests of me as a trans-man as well as in the best interests of me as a pansexual-man.

As such, I'll happily join hands with anyone else suffering this form of bigotry as we have a mutual best interest, a mutual cause, even if our causes differ.

It's like that poem...

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Quote from: Miniar on July 15, 2010, 02:04:29 PM
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Thats a very nice quote, but you forget that groups while great for banding together in common purpose suffer from stigma as a group as well, and just because your large doesnt mean you wont suffer.  I give you the example of ACORN which had to break up and change its name once a few people in the organization did something "BAD". 

You mentioned the following:
"I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".  I have to agree with you in that people have to understand that being TS is natural, however i dont agree with you when i comes to being seen as NOT TS, and by keeping that label you are asserting yourself as separate from the rest of society and different.  So LGB are different too so lets join them right? what about the larger group of people who aren't LGB, why not join them? isn't their strength in numbers like you mentioned in the poem?

All i am pointing out is the issue is more complex for us then simply sexuality.  A lot of other factors come into play and hoping that if the LGB agenda is completed will somehow elevate us is something based on speculation / hope and not on fact.  Its much easier to tolerate a gay person because they seem like everyone else, however if a TS uses the bathroom it becomes a whole issue for a company, but a LGB using one isn't.  Personally i hate the term TS to describe me, its term that degrades, and separates.  I would rather be a woman that has TS, or in my case SUFFERING from TS.  TS is natural, so is blindness, cancer, and a whole bunch of other things....

You also seem to shun things like pity and sympathy.  In exchange what would like to have? hate,fear, and indifference like we have now.  I would rather someone feel sympathetic toward me then nothing at all or even worse hateful.  I see nothing wrong with that emotion, its one born out of love and compassion for each other, but because people dont want to be labeled as a defect or whatever you cast it aside as if it were worthless.  If they feel nothing their is no contact their is no interaction there is no chance at connection, with sympathy at least a chance to make a connection for understanding can be established.  The more people you come in contact with and the more lives you touch the more the world will change, just by being a good person will people change around you...

So i see myself as a woman suffering with TS, I see you as a man suffering from TS, am i wrong? do you not suffer because of it? why do you let it define you, people get cancer they go through it, they beat it and they become stronger people, they dont say oh thats a cancer person.   They say that X, they survived cancer.   Would it be so bad if the world looked at us the same way in awe of the strength it takes to deal with this?

I dont know why its so hard to accept that you were born different and have an issue dealing with birth, the only way you can accept actually being labeled TS in my mind is if you dont really have it and want to live the "LIFESTYLE" or whatever.  I think of it as a birth defect that needs to be overcome, nothing more.  If everyone saw it that way i think people wouldnt hate us as much and maybe even show sympathy for what we have to go through.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 02:59:24 PM
Thats a very nice quote, but you forget that groups while great for banding together in common purpose suffer from stigma as a group as well, and just because your large doesnt mean you wont suffer.  I give you the example of ACORN which had to break up and change its name once a few people in the organization did something "BAD". 

I looked up ACORN, it's not quite comparable, but I'll take the analogy/example.
No, just because you're a larger group, doesn't mean you won't suffer.
Most prejudice stands because of the actions of the few being held as examples of how the many are flawed, this happens without banding together, this happens as long as people have "anything" in common. I take to point the recent news about a transsexual woman who was convicted of possessing child pornography.
How many people will take this as evidence that all "->-bleeped-<-s" are perverts and freaks?
You really think that number is affected by T standing with GLB?

Quote from: IzumiYou mentioned the following:
"I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".  I have to agree with you in that people have to understand that being TS is natural, however i dont agree with you when i comes to being seen as NOT TS, and by keeping that label you are asserting yourself as separate from the rest of society and different.  So LGB are different too so lets join them right? what about the larger group of people who aren't LGB, why not join them? isn't their strength in numbers like you mentioned in the poem?

We are all different, but I'm not separating myself from the rest of society.
I explained that I want to be seen as a perfectly normal human being, regardless of whether I'm trans, poly, pan, or in any other way "different".
I don't mind being seen as a transsexual, the problem isn't that "I'm" seen as transsexual, the problem is the ignorance, hate, stigma, and other BS that people impose on us. The problem is not that I'm trans, the problem is that people see trans as "abnormal".

I also explained Exactly what the benefit of being associated with the GLB gives us.
We are fighting the "exact" same type of bigotry that originates in the exact same ignorance and idiocy.

Quote from: IzumiAll i am pointing out is the issue is more complex for us then simply sexuality.  A lot of other factors come into play and hoping that if the LGB agenda is completed will somehow elevate us is something based on speculation / hope and not on fact.  Its much easier to tolerate a gay person because they seem like everyone else, however if a TS uses the bathroom it becomes a whole issue for a company, but a LGB using one isn't.  Personally i hate the term TS to describe me, its term that degrades, and separates.  I would rather be a woman that has TS, or in my case SUFFERING from TS.  TS is natural, so is blindness, cancer, and a whole bunch of other things....

Sexuality is not that simple, not for a lot of people.
I have also explained why GLB fighting the same bigotry as we face would carry some effect for us.
And no, not all gay persons "seem like everyone else".

The word transsexual does not separate any more than you allow it to.
Every word we could use to describe ourselves can be considered a word that separates if we choose to take it thus.

Quote from: IzumiYou also seem to shun things like pity and sympathy.  In exchange what would like to have? hate,fear, and indifference like we have now.  I would rather someone feel sympathetic toward me then nothing at all or even worse hateful.  I see nothing wrong with that emotion, its one born out of love and compassion for each other, but because people dont want to be labeled as a defect or whatever you cast it aside as if it were worthless.  If they feel nothing their is no contact their is no interaction there is no chance at connection, with sympathy at least a chance to make a connection for understanding can be established.  The more people you come in contact with and the more lives you touch the more the world will change, just by being a good person will people change around you...

It's easy to see in my writing that I do not want hate nor fear, but indifference wouldn't be so bad to be honest.
A person who was indifferent to my being transsexual would simply not see it as a thing that would sway their emotions for or against me. It would mean that I was judged on the merits of my character, not the congruity of my chromosomes/genitals/what have you.

You can not "love" what you do not "know".
Pity is not an emotion I'd consider born out of "care" for me.

If someone pities me for being trans then they have done so because of their emotional gratification for it, not because it helps me, not because it has a bearing on who I am. I am who I am because of the life I have lived. I wouldn't be "me" without this history and I'm quite comfortable, happy even, with who I am. With me.
I don't want pity. I want the same basic respect as I give others.

You can not have love and care for the person I am without knowing the person I am.
If you don't know me, then your sympathy and pity are in existence only because of what they give you.

People who know me, and care about me, don't pity me for my conditions, not any of them. They respect me on merits of my character, my intelligence, and my ability to do things in-spite of my conditions.
People who don't know me have no business expressing any emotion about my life for they know nothing of my life.

Quote from: IzumiSo i see myself as a woman suffering with TS, I see you as a man suffering from TS, am i wrong? do you not suffer because of it? why do you let it define you, people get cancer they go through it, they beat it and they become stronger people, they dont say oh thats a cancer person.   They say that X, they survived cancer.   Would it be so bad if the world looked at us the same way in awe of the strength it takes to deal with this?

I am a transsexual. I am also a man. I am also a tall person. I am also white. I have fibromyalgia. I wear glasses. I wear clothes.
I am who I am, all of it, for better or worse. I don't define myself by any one word, to assert that is false.
I do have negative effects from being transsexual, it is a problem in my life, but so are other things.

People do beat cancer, yes, and then it goes away, and they don't need treatments anymore.
I will never be fully free of transsexuality. 
I will have to take hormones for the rest of my life.
I will have to live with scars where most other men do not.
I will have to live with genitals that aren't fully "up to code".
I will never father children.
I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way.

I refuse to behave as if "trassexual" is some bogey man word that'll overtake my life, steal my identity, and make me less of a man, even with all that.
I'm going to Live, With this.

Quote from: IzumiI dont know why its so hard to accept that you were born different and have an issue dealing with birth, the only way you can accept actually being labeled TS in my mind is if you dont really have it and want to live the "LIFESTYLE" or whatever.  I think of it as a birth defect that needs to be overcome, nothing more.  If everyone saw it that way i think people wouldnt hate us as much and maybe even show sympathy for what we have to go through.

No accusation here, but, are you insinuating that people who accept that they are transsexuals aren't "true" transsexuals?
There's more than your way of doing things you know....

Wow where to start.  First off, i love this discussion it really makes you think, i think that our pasts are probably influencing our ways of thinking which is really interesting.  You for example might have gotten a lot of help from the LGB community while i received none, some of the people i know have horror stories of the way they were treated as well, but i know there is always some bad seeds along with the good.

Here are some quotes:
"You really think that number is affected by T standing with GLB?"

reply to quote 1:
Yes, do think the numbers are affected.  The reason being now you have people that dont really have TS issues getting in trouble and by association TS become part of it, also visibility as a group is lower since people thing LG first then BT last.  Also because of the T in LGBT, we are always referred to in the news as TS man or TS woman, and not a man with TS or a woman with TS, or even left out.  If things were correct then that article would be just about a woman who has child porn and not a TS woman that has child porn like it is now.  Are LGB fighting for your right to be called a man, and mine to be a woman or will i forever be a Trans woman?

Quote 2:
"I also explained Exactly what the benefit of being associated with the GLB gives us.
We are fighting the "exact" same type of bigotry that originates in the exact same ignorance and idiocy. "

reply to quote 2:
No its a different kind of bigotry its not the same, our goals as the TS community is different from LGB.  Hate is hate, we can say all hate is bad then we should join the NAACP as well, because thats the same bigotry by definition.  Making it a sexual characteristic to the bigotry makes it an LGBT issue? Its all still hate, its all still ignorance.  If being a member of LGB is so great, how come everyone is spending so much time educating people about gay, straight, lesbian, but not so much about TS, i dont see that in schools.... If people dont understand the difference between a straight TS woman and a lesbian one, much less the facts out about it, how does that help our cause, most people think i am gay because they have no clue what its like being a woman with TS.  A lot of people just think we are cross dressers.  So when do we start teaching people about our issues? after they win or before they win the gay marriage laws?

Quote 3:
"You can not "love" what you do not "know"

Reply to quote 3:
Yes you can love something you dont know, does your heart not ache when you people suffering? you dont know that but you know its painful for them.  Sometimes you help if you can sometimes you dont.  If you see a kitten on the ground whimpering do you not help it because you dont know what its like to be a cat?  Love and compassion for our fellow human beings is a fundamental emotion we have to survive as a species.  How selfish is that to say that helping you out of pity would be for the other person's benefit not yours.  Giving of yourself for others sake elevates you both, to not accept a gift like that when freely offered is kind of sad.  In today's society where selfishness is the norm its not often you get people who will give without expecting things in return even if it is an empathy to the pain you must be going through.  Those gifts should be the most treasured.

Quote 4:
I will never be fully free of transsexuality.
- That has yet to be determined, your free when you believe yourself to be free of it.  I will be FREE of TS when i am happily married, and raising adopted children.   For you, your freedom might be different.

I will have to take hormones for the rest of my life.
-That has yet to be determined, medical science may prove you wrong.

I will have to live with scars where most other men do not.
-men suffer scars, everyone does, a lot of men have worse scars then you will ever have.

I will have to live with genitals that aren't fully "up to code".
-A science continues it might eventually be up to code, I am in the same boat although to a lesser degree, but just because things down there arent perfect doesnt mean you not a man, plenty of men have Mr. Johnson go MIA for one reason or another and make due, but now they know how you feel.

I will never father children.
-Right now you cant, but in the future, who knows.  I also will never be able to bare a child, but i hope for the day i will, along with a lot of sterile women, and on your side, sterile men, not being able to father a child doesnt mean your not a man.  Anyone can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father!

I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way.
-yeah you will, once you are free from being TS, whatever that is for you, but if you never believe you will be rid of it, you never will.  Aren't you living like a man now? thats pretty much how it is.  All the FTM's i know seem like regular guys to me, i couldn't tell the difference.


I think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 06:37:59 PM
I think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US.

Exactly!!!! The only reason we may seem to have the same enemy is BECAUSE people assume GLB and T are all the same BECAUSE they are lumped together in this generally inaccurate term. Ask your local cis-lesbian what an RLT is and she will probably look at you like you have two heads.