Quote from: tekla on July 29, 2010, 05:48:47 PM
Mostly they scream unemployed, or minimal wage at best.

Thats not always true, I know someone who is very heavily modded and she works in a lab for the NHS not exactly sure what she does but it's not minimum wage. She has about 90% of her body tattooed, stretched lobes and labret, tongue split etc

Owww tongue split! Yeah that is one that is cool for others but all I can think is oww. I knew people at my old job who made almost $15 an hour with piercings in which is about double minimum wage in a few states. I think piercings can be both. I've been told I look more masculine with 1 ear gauged but with both it looks feminine on me. (I wear a 6 gauge captive usually)

I use to have an industrial, and apparently that was just screaming "I'm a lesbian," now I just have a stud in my left ear.
It always depends on the individual, but off the top of my head,
eyebrow, nose stud, cartilage, hoops in one or both ears, or studs in both: feminine
tongue: female or gay
industrial, a LOT of cartilage piercings: lesbian
septum, snake bites, lip, gauged ears: unisex/goth/metal head/skater/punk/hippie
chin: masculine
spikes in general: lesbian or masculine, depending
split tongue, piercing corset: "non conformist"

i have to agree with tekla for the most part. anything but traditional earlobe piercings are unprofessional, and the holes when the metal is removed tend to attract more attention than the piercings themselves.

we, as a society, create the standard of what is and is not "professional." It's completely relative, and (somewhat) arbitrary, and I think it's important that we try to get over things like that.
not to say I'm above it. If my doctor walks in and is tattooed and pierced up the wazoo, I would definitely think twice, before reminding myself that he went through med school like every other doctor.

Quote from: spinaltap on August 08, 2010, 07:31:54 PM
we, as a society, create the standard of what is and is not "professional." It's completely relative, and (somewhat) arbitrary, and I think it's important that we try to get over things like that.

i agree with this. and a lot of the "ew look at that guy with lots of tattoos and piercings, what a freak!" sounds very similar to me to "ew look at that man in a dress, what a freak!"

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Post Merge: August 08, 2010, 07:58:55 PM

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and not to mention, a lot of the same employment problems that exist for the modified community existed and still exist for the trans community....a lot of employers don't want people with giant gauged ears, tons of visible tattoos, and several facial piercings working for them...a lot of employers also don't want a "man" that has long hair, long painted nails, wears feminine clothing, etc or a "woman" with a crew cut, men's clothing, etc. i know a lot of you will scream "but that's different!" but to Joe Schmoe CEO is it really?

Quote from: spinaltap on August 08, 2010, 07:31:54 PM
It's completely relative, and (somewhat) arbitrary...

You are welcome to express your values in the modification of your property and person, and to associate as you please, but others retain a similar right.  With regard to my own profession, given that our lives are dedicated to creation and to refinement, we do not generally contract business with those who deface themselves or their property.  Given that we are internationally mobile, we cannot be forced; we simply offshore the job.  Many other professions operate in a similar manner.

Freedom of expression does not imply freedom from consequence.  Best of luck in your career.

- N

Quote from: Nimetön on August 08, 2010, 08:27:02 PM
You are welcome to express your values in the modification of your property and person, and to associate as you please, but others retain a similar right.  With regard to my own profession, given that our lives are dedicated to creation and to refinement, we do not generally contract business with those who deface themselves or their property.  Given that we are internationally mobile, we cannot be forced; we simply offshore the job.  Many other professions operate in a similar manner.

Freedom of expression does not imply freedom from consequence.  Best of luck in your career.

- N

This is the SAME mentality that makes it so difficult for anyone that's different.

If you want to conform to the antiquated standards of appearance that the straight, conservative corporate world maintains, you go right ahead, make your money and laugh at us right along with your office friends ... I really don't know what would possess you to make a statement like that here.... 

"Non TG" ............. Obviously 

Quote from: JessicaR on August 08, 2010, 01:25:17 PM
Hmmm... sounds like something that someone who judges others by their appearance would say...

Not to me, sounds like something that someone who is aware that employers judge by appearance would say.

Quote from: JessicaR on August 08, 2010, 09:03:50 PM
I really don't know what would possess you to make a statement like that here.... 

While I do not generally reply to cris de coeur, it seems appropriate to address the specific concerns in this one.  The motive which possesses me is the motive of the site itself, as described by Susan Larson in her post Site Terms of Service and rules to live by: "This web site exists try to provide constructive input and support."  I will provide an elaboration on the previous post in the hopes that some of those present on this forum will benefit from this advice.

The corporate world maintains conservative standards as an adaptation to its survival needs.  We are, regardless of our specific functions, archivists and analysts of information for the purpose of risk assessment and resource management, and the business environment in which we function is one of extreme complexity and volatility, especially in an increasingly international and technological economy.  In such an environment, all of our resources must remain constantly productive and remain perpetually at risk; in order to survive, we must minimize risk and maximize competitive productivity by continual adaptation.  These are the core values of the corporate world.

One can train employees for specific skills, and may relocate resources as needed, but values cannot be trained; they must be selected for by means of the hiring process.  Therefore, while purely functional positions (such as manufacturing laborer) are hired for based upon skills and replaced by machines at the earliest opportunity, persons seeking positions requiring human agency and judgment are largely hired based upon their values; we use the prospective employee's skills, education, prior experience, interview responses, demeanor, and appearance to determine the compatibility between the prospect's values and ambitions and those of the corporation itself, and to determine the prospect's ability to adapt to the responsibilities of the position and to the changing business environment.  Those who demonstrate a refusal to adapt themselves to the needs of the corporation possess values which are not compatible with the corporation; if hired, these people would become current and long-term liabilities on both a functional and a public basis.

We do not make your lives difficult.  We do not live in an interdependent society, but are free and independent persons with individual ambitions and values.  You are free to live in any manner you choose, and you are not dependent upon us for employment any more than we are dependent upon you for services; you may form your own business or contract with those who's values match your own, and we will do likewise.  If you wish to contract business with us, then the onus is upon you to demonstrate, by appearance and by action as well as by speech, that your values coincide with ours.

Thus, as I said, freedom of expression does not imply freedom from consequence.  Best of luck in your career.

- N

I wrote a very long, well detailed post but it didn't actually submit to the thread so I'll give the abridged version.

Where I live tattoos, body mods, and piercings done professionally are very expensive. I tend to think that people that get a lot of metal or ink must have a decent income or are able to budget themselves to have a lot of money left over. Considering that my 3x3 inch simple black ink design was done by a not so great artist for around $90, I would assume that the cost of full sleeves has to be over $1,000. Piercings are also expensive, and there's the jewelry. Hand made pieces fairly expensive. Consider that one set of quality glass plugs (for stretched piercings) are $50 and there are maybe 5 sizes where a person would stay at that size for a few months for healing. $250 if they were to spend that much on jewelry.

They could have a job that isn't the standard 9-5. I know of some teachers that have a lot of tattoos, they wear long sleeves and slacks so nothing is shown but that's strictly in the work place. I don't think that piercings or tattoos are feminine or masculine.

Arrogant people suck 

Corporations are not people.

They are made up of people, and those individuals can be open minded - but the corporation itself has no moral compass. It does not hate or have contempt, and it does not love or support. It is not a singular entity that can be "reasoned" with - especially on emotional, moral or subjective grounds. It is not an enemy, but (despite what the ads may tell you) it is not a friend.

It exists for one purpose - to make a profit. If an open minded hiring policy will not significantly increase profit, then the corporation will continue to act in the way that has served it best in the past.

It's not personal - it's just business.


On topic : I have a vertical labret with small matte black spikes. I'd say it's masculine. It is the only piercing I have, I don't intend to get more. I am not what you'd call "heavily modded".

I have to agree with Nimeton that many companies, particularly the larger ones, do have a conservative aesthetic and are likely to frown on anyone with an unconventional appearance or manner (this includes transpeople).  Would you want to work for a company like that?  Me neither. 

My solution has been to move to a part of the world that has an open-minded, liberal approach, so that I can walk down the street with my tattoos, piercings, butch clothes and dyed hair without being harrassed.  I have also gravitated towards open-minded, liberal employers whose values I identify with.  Now that I am established in my career and self-employed, I present as a professional person with all my "outlandish" rigmarole.  Does it freak out my clients?  Nope.  They invariably say "I LOVE your hair.  I wish I had the courage to do that".

We move towards the cultures that suit us.  It is the only way to stay sane.

I see an equal number of guys and girls with piercings.  I don't think it makes people look more masculine or more feminine, it's rather neutral imo.  Not my thing personally.  I did have my cartilage pierced but had to remove all jewelry for surgery and never put it back in.

It's also common knowledge that employers don't look too highly on piercings and tattoos.  But if you really see someone with piercings and automatically assume that they are unemployed/making minimum wage, then you're being very judgmental.  Plus most of the people I see with facial piercings look like they're still in high school, when a solid career isn't something they're worried about.  I fail to see how a kid with a piercing is hurting their future job opportunities.

Personally -- I think  peircings, when placed in the right area and are properly sized -- Can make your face seem more, or less masculine/feminine. Not all peircings are the same, and some combined with others can give certain facial shapes a more masculine appearence -- while others would make that same facial shape feminine. It's all in the way you place your hardware. XDD

<3 Alun