Quote from: rejennyrated on August 29, 2010, 03:00:09 PM
My problem with this is that whilst I do understand and respect Interalia's experience, the fact remains that mine was somewhat different. I was a young transitioner. I was also one of those who has not regretted it, and honestly believes that if I had been forced to delay any longer without surgery I simply would NOT now be alive.

Given my experience I do wonder how many people like me are not so lucky as I was and simply dont find the one doctor who will bend the rules for them, and as a result wind up on a slab.

Do you see why I have problems coming to terms with the opinions of those of you who seem to want rigidly enforced rules? Because if such rules had been enforced on me I genuinely do not believe I would be alive now, and so it is very difficult for me not to feel as if those who would argue for such a rigid system, were effectively calling for my death!

Now please also understand I am absolutely NOT taking this personally, or indeed holding any grudges, but I do want to convey to people the need for a doctor to be free to treat the individual before them who may not be the same as the last patient, indeed may well be different from the next one.

Please let us have guidelines by all means - but never rules. The doctor MUST be free to exercise their professional judgement and to act in their patients best interest.

Almost 30 years on, and with not one moment of regret, I am living proof that mine did so when he bent the rules for me. I may be the exception, but surely it is still not right, if by enforcing rules, however well intentioned, you cause the needless death of one single patient.

The same idea of "one single death" could be reversed to say that one single death should not be allowed by not enforcing the rules.  Fortunately I do not feel that way.

I don't wish to make the SOC or WPATH required law.  I want people to be able to make their own choices and deal with the consequences of those.  However, there needs to be more information given so people can really make informed decisions.  Too often the "regret" of those who detransition is not seen or heard from the community at large.  That isn't because it doesn't exist, but because it is often subjugated, derided, and cast out.  We do our community a disservice by silencing, intimidating, or diminishing the validity of the experiences of those who regret transition, de-transition, or choose not to transition.  We need to hear from these brothers and sisters - they too need support, and their stories should serve as a sobering reminder of how important it is to be real with yourself and the professionals who are trying to help you.

I tried many things over the years to keep from transitioning.  CBT was but one of many.  Some of the things it did were not the nice things ether.

Back when I tried to transition, 20 plus years, my then therapist used the SOC as gospel.  She would not give an reference for HRT for 6 months, she also stated that I had to begin RLE immediately.  I was forced to do things I was not mentally ready for.  As a result I went back into the closet and made a mess off my life.

I was always angry and I hated life.  Even with a good woman beside me, I hate life.  When I could take it no more , I tried to take that last big step and almost succeeded in taking my own life.

I now look forward to a brighter future.  There is no hard and fast rules for this thing called GID.  There is a set of guidelines called the Standard Of Care.  They are there for a reason.  Shortcutting them will do more harm than good.  And this has been proven over and over again.  But by demanding that the SOC be used as the rulebook is also just as bad.

If one is happy with plodding along and continue to fight, let them.  But if they must transition then use the SOC as a guideline.  Some will go faster and some will go slower.

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 03:47:20 PM
What Interalia has brought up gives me great pause. We hear the people who think transsexuals are mentally ill and only in need of the right therapy to make them stop the gender variant behavior. The religious right chants this all the time at every opportunity yet so far only their variation of reparative therapy is what they offer. They use it as a reason to deny trans people ENDA and advocate shunning us until we repent and seek such care.

The idea that CBT could be the silver bullet that would enable us to act according to their social construct seems most worrisome. It seems to work for Interalia and no doubt if it was promoted by the RR, we could be faced with  having to say why we won't try it or having our rights further denied because there is a "Cure" at least one that would allow us to suffer in silence.

I researched CBT and LBGT on Google and found that it is being used but so far not to convert the patient back to "Normal"  but rather to cope with the effects of being LBGT in a society that hates us. I couldn't find anything that indicated it is used to make LBGT people less offensive to the general population.

Since the subject of this is de transition, using CBT to detransition is slightly different and I would like to know how successful Interalia thinks it is. That is to say, how much better is your life living as male with CBT vs living as female? you say you aren't advocating it but you alluded to a number of transfolk who were actively detransitioning. Are they also using CBT?

Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.  Some take hormones, some live part time as female.  Some work to avoid their triggers and so live reclusive lives.  To my knowledge I am the exception.  I have advanced psychological training and an extremely open mind to new ideas.  I've combined the things I've learned and my own experiences to work to 'diagnose' and use therapeutic techniques on myself.  Most have to do with relieving/preventing the anxiety provoked by triggers or eliminating triggers.

So how does life compare from my transition to my detransition state?  They each have their own challenges and while I've never compiled a great comparison, your message provokes me to do so.  That will take time, more time than I have right now, but I can say - due to my specific advantages I had with regard to transition, I believe I could have been sufficiently happy living the rest of my life as female.  I compare my happiness in transition to be similar if not a little better than my life now.  HOWEVER - that is considering the fact I had many tremendous advantages in my transition.  Had I the setbacks and challenges I saw so many others with, I can say that life is definitely better now. 

I feel it very important to mention that life as a female and life as a detransitoned (trigger controlling) male are excessively better than life was before transition.  I was a slave to my triggers back then, and could think of nothing else but the pain caused by my GID.  I dulled the pain in my addictions and in distracting myself continuously, but when the high left, and the stimulus went silent, I was alone with my GID which tore me apart.  The only wrong answer to me, was doing nothing at all.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 29, 2010, 04:02:05 PM
I tried many things over the years to keep from transitioning.  CBT was but one of many.  Some of the things it did were not the nice things ether.

Back when I tried to transition, 20 plus years, my then therapist used the SOC as gospel.  She would not give an reference for HRT for 6 months, she also stated that I had to begin RLE immediately.  I was forced to do things I was not mentally ready for.  As a result I went back into the closet and made a mess off my life.

I was always angry and I hated life.  Even with a good woman beside me, I hate life.  When I could take it no more , I tried to take that last big step and almost succeeded in taking my own life.

I now look forward to a brighter future.  There is no hard and fast rules for this thing called GID.  There is a set of guidelines called the Standard Of Care.  They are there for a reason.  Shortcutting them will do more harm than good.  And this has been proven over and over again.  But by demanding that the SOC be used as the rulebook is also just as bad.

If one is happy with plodding along and continue to fight, let them.  But if they must transition then use the SOC as a guideline.  Some will go faster and some will go slower.

This sort of thing really burns me. These people claim to be professionals. They imply they have some sort of experteese. In reality, they are simply following a step by step manual with no regard for the individual. They realy motive, I suggest, and that of most of these types, is theor own egos and feelings of power.

Such behaviour has a lable. It's called psychopathy. But since such lables are already the preserve of these people, they can get away with murder.

Janet. My heart goes out to you my love. No-one should have to deal with such evil scum.

I suppose the questions that I want to ask are.

1. If life transitioned was better why de-transition at all? That does not seem to add up.

and

2. What do you do if your need is not to "express femininity" in terms of some behaviours but merely to have physically female shaped bits?

For me nothing else was going to relieve the feelings. It was a strong case of DISMORPHIC feeling rather than any discomfort with my gender role.

If people wanted to treat me as male now, I would be marginally ok with that. Yes I would definitely rather that they didn't, but the physical was way the most important thing, and that would now remain altered however people choose to treat me or see me.

Quote from: interalia on August 29, 2010, 03:54:31 PM
That isn't because it doesn't exist, but because it is often subjugated, derided, and cast out.  We do our community a disservice by silencing, intimidating, or diminishing the validity of the experiences of those who regret transition, de-transition, or choose not to transition.  We need to hear from these brothers and sisters - they too need support, and their stories should serve as a sobering reminder of how important it is to be real with yourself and the professionals who are trying to help you.

Very true! An important thing to add, the number of people who never transition, or de-transition, for whatever reason, are likely much higher than the percentage of those who successfully transition.

Z

Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.

Interalia if you don't mind me asking do you think for yourself and/or other people who detransition that social reasons played a part in why you/they transitioned in the first place? And what I mean by that is say someone assigned male (or female) at birth, but express themselves in a feminine (or masculine) way or wish to, but society can not be very accepting of it at times and they may feel forced to act one way causing them distress or face ridicule, which led them to transition. I would think everyone would agree that there is nothing wrong with a feminine man, or a masculine woman, but like I mentioned earlier society can have issues with that, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the person, society just needs stop being ignorant. I guess what I'm leading up to is that if that were the cause for someone to transition I could understand why they detransition as their sex assigned at birth wasn't the issue, but the stress of not being able to express themselves freely. Just what you said (at the top of my post) "expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways" made me think why does it have to be limited?

The issue though for (some? most?) transgender/transsexual people is when their own body causes them dysphoria, that isn't caused by society or whatever, that is a real issue for someone (and I'm sure most people have body issues, but this is a lot different than saying oh I wish prettier or something). So when someones body causes them extremes amount dysphoria/distress(/pick your word) that can lead someone to take hormones, get surgery, etc. I know this was the reason for my transition anyways. I think if you were to put a cis-gender person into another body of the opposite sex they would have these feelings to.

And I just refreshed the thread and Jenny just mentioned the same thing too (in a lot less words lol), grrr!

I think this is a fascinating discussion.  The main thing I get from it is that we are all different and have different needs and things driving us.

For Jenny and Katelyn it was physical, but for me it was mainly social – I couldn't feel free without living full time as a woman.  Dee put her children's needs first while others have said they couldn't.  Some have to transition early against all odds and are successful, while others of us wait until we have fewer barriers.  I waited until I was in my sixties, but once I saw the door open I scooted through lickety-split.

And so, because we are all different, we shouldn't criticize another for his or her decisions.  The decision may make no sense to us, but that is because we don't have the same situation or drivers.  And, because we are different, the SOC should be a guideline applied with care and compassion.

Still, as TG people considering transition, we need to remember several things – transition will not solve all our problems, and the competent professionals are there to help us and guide us.  Therapy, if done right, is a cooperative effort between the two people involved.

- Kate

Quote from: Ashley4214 on August 26, 2010, 04:44:55 AM
From the moment I realized transition was an option, it's, for me, a one way street, I either make it or I die along the way, but there is no going back.

I couldn't have said it any better than this.

Have a great day.

I agree Kate. I didn't mean to imply that transitioning for mainly social reasons is wrong, all paths are valid. I mean social reasons do play a part for me otherwise I wouldn't have legally changed my name, and be stealth in a new job, I want to be seen as female, as me (just not my main reason I guess). Anyways I've enjoyed reading this topic, I've found it interesting

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 29, 2010, 04:36:26 PM
I can't believe that some people even said things like "not even for the sake of my kids."

I put the needs of my kids FIRST.  I needed badly to live as a woman but their need of a father figure outweighed my needs.

I had the option to put their needs after my needs but that would have been self centered and inconsiderate.

I do not regret that I took time out to be there for them growing up.  It made me mature and become a better person as I learned to put the needs of others before mine.

I do not want to seem to be arguing with you here because i have the greatest respect for the choice you made, but for me, this is how i evaluate it:

1. if I concede to the point that "they need a father figure" then I am confirming the societal bigotry that I can't be a good parent as a woan by my actions;

2. if I "wear a mask" ostensibly for the good of my kids, then how can i tell them "be yourself and don't be subject to society's pressures to look and act a certain way" when my own behavior sent exactly the opposite message.

3. if I hide my true self from them then i potentially communicate that i have something to be ashamed of, again confirming by my actions the P.O.V. of the bigots.

4. I'd rather my kids learn acceptance (and they have) than the hatefulness their mom displays

5. My whole life the message internally and externally was "think of others before yourself" and in that rubric, there will always be SOME loved one who you are expected to think about. I daresay I wouldn't be where i am now if I had realized 20 years ago that such a line of reasoning was a trap (although I can't say I regret actions which led to the existence of my sons).

6. if i did de-transition (or not transition) "for my kids" i would be giving them a depressive, melancholy, unmotivated shell of a man - the illusion of "daddy" without the content.

At the end of the day, it's not (in my judgment) whether or not one is trans that "hurts your kids" - it's how the society and culture reacts to you. if one does, as you did, have to hold off until they are grown, what you are really saving them from is the slings and arrows of being associated with a "freak" (in the eyes of society) not being "fatherless"

Again, always, IMO.

I recently thought about detransitiong because I was sick of people saying I will never be real, and that I am a social deviant. I thought, if I were a girl , Id be real in the eyes of society and wouldnt be accused of being someone Im not, and save thousands and my family the pain.
But it doesn't work that way. When I think I might not be male afterall I get sad and scared.

My GID is twofold, social which is older, and physical. I can't get over the second part even if I suppressed the first in some way. And either would just be suicide to me, if not in body then in mind. I look at my compass and the only direction it has is forward.

In my case even the social aspects had a physical underpinning: a horrible aching, lifelong pain, and a pitiful, sad despair in the depths of my soul that finally drove me to the only solution possible for me other than premature death, and that was seeking a cure through transition and reassignment surgery. Thankfully, the cure seems to have worked. And while I acknowledge that others may require less drastic solutions, I know what worked for me so that I never have to feel that dreadful, horrid pain that was mine again. That is something everyone has to find for themselves according to what level it affects their lives. We all come to this from different places, and our success or failure at however we deal with it is ultimately up to ourselves.

I'm afraid if it were even possible that any other permanent "cure" could be effected, it would be forced down our throats by those who think they know us better than we know ourselves. My life is good now, I have peace and fulfillment, and I cannot even imagine trying to live life as a man again. What a horrible nightmare that would be.

so many interesting replies!
which to me breaks us down into four groups: 
the ones who never learned to live as original sex and transition very young'
the ones who decide we have to live female regardless - which implies we are classis TS who would and do feel happier transitioned despite setbacks from problems from work, family, public,
the ones who held back because of family rearing but then go full steam ahead,
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 01:33:39 AM
so many interesting replies!
which to me breaks us down into four groups: 
the ones who never learned to live as original sex and transition very young'
the ones who decide we have to live female regardless - which implies we are classis TS who would and do feel happier transitioned despite setbacks from problems from work, family, public,
the ones who held back because of family rearing but then go full steam ahead,
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

The fourth group I would say are not necessarily non-TS. Some people have horribly high debts or need a lot of money for their families or have maybe a somewhat less intense dysphoria and have other priorities in their lives at that moment.

I'd add a fifth and a sixth group.
The ones who don't transition and don't out themselves to anyone (but maybe a few friends) or only drop hints (I used to date such a person).
The ones who are out at least in their private lives but don't transition physically, no matter what pronouns and names they go by (some of these have been good friends of mine for 10 or 12 years).

@Tippe,

thank you very much for your insightful posting. You have a lot of good points here and it was a very interesting read.

Quote from: Tippe on August 28, 2010, 05:50:13 AMNow alot of communication studies show that strict observation will make the applicants exhibit a presentation focus where they are very keen on not saying or doing anything wrong, which obviously hinders dialogue and reflections. When I contacted the clinic for help I actually wanted to discuss my feelings about being transgender, how to handle them and which worries I had about the transition I had begun, but it was soon evident that if I wanted to get anywhere the only way I could do it was by telling the story of being a girl since the get go and hidding any and every doubts. To get anywhere you have to plead for HRT from the start and to be allowed to get them you have to tell that you want GRS in the end. No middle way. This is especially stupid since hormones themselves are readily available in Denmark. So they should know that people, who are not on HRT already when they seek the clinic go to them for other reasons than the HRT itself...
(...)
Worst of all studies show that the two most common reasons for regret are bad surgical outcomes and rejection or other issues with family and friends. For this reason the Danish approach may actually well be responsible for high regretfullness due to lack of surgical experience in the country and lack of possibility of working on family issues and other problems which might arise.Tippe

I agree to what many said, that living full time for quite a while should be a prerequisitive for SRS, and even if you can bypass that, you should still give yourself a moratorium here.  I also agree that a set of rules is not a bad idea, but I'd like the Standards of Care to have a few forks with various paths you can pick from (the German Standards of Care are much more "one size fits all" than the Benjamin Standards here and offer less choice, plus Germans love rules so the shrinks here tend to even take the suggestions from the Standards as a gospel to follow by the word). I once talked to one of the gender therapists who was involved in creating the German Standards, she is half-French half-German (I'm half-French too) and she agreed to this and said she would have expected more flexibility here and was disappointed at most German shrinks' stubborn approach. As the whole German Standards are officially a suggestion, not a rule. I looked at her and said: "Don't expect from Germans that they take official suggestions for what they are - suggestions. Whatever looks remotely like a rule will be treated like a rule." And she laughed and said "you're right".

I also don't like the transsexual scene encourage people to go the "one right path". Very dangerous, that. Plus here, many of them think - I have a GID problem, the authorities have found an official ruleset for that (German Standards) so this is exactly the way to go, from start to end, as authorities are always right. Ouch.

In my case, for example, I did not want to go full-time before passing as male, which was impossible before hormones had their effect. I had been bullied at school as a teen and was extremely afraid how people would react at work and university. Plus both my job and my time at university would have ended one year later, so it seemed somewhat pointless for me to do the big "I look like a girl but call me a boy's name and say "he" instead of "she" thing". Shrink said I had to for getting on hormones though, as I had to get the experience how it feels like being called "he" and a boy's name and being treated as a guy before T.

Now first, I could not pass before T cause of my physical make-up, so I would not be treated like a guy but like a woman who wants to be called by a boy's name - so that would be a real-life experience as a transgendered person being out everywhere, not as a guy. Plus in my private live, I had hung around a lot with other non-transitioning people who were genderqueer or transgendered, we knew of each others' situation. Some wanted gender-congruent pronouns and names used, others were okay with the sex-congruent ones as long as it was clear for others that it was not who they were and they were not expected to fit in the according gender box. So I knew and saw from some of them what happens if you do the "no passing, but my own gender mode" thing and I knew this was no solution for me.

I also hung out with a couple of gay guys who often gave each other female names and pronouns just for fun, so I did not mind how these people called me. So going the path the way my shrink requested would not have been THAT revealing for me to find out whether I was trans or not, it would only have put unnecessary stress on me at work as a "test" to see if I was obstinate enough about transition to cope with that stress. I found that silly.

I also had had dissociative identity disorder (DID) which was mostly cured by then and I wanted to rule out that I was still much more split up than I thought and that my GID was a false positive diagnosis with underlying DID. The path I officially had to follow would not have helped me getting clear here but would rather have masked it. If I still had DID, I could have lived full-time in male mode without feeling it's wrong for me as the fittest personalities for this, confident males, would have taken over and managed all the outside life and blocked off the girls I had -  and I would have coped with transrelated mobbing and stress by creating lots of new personalities which you don't want to happen if you're DID. So in my case, it was more useful to live part-time rather than full-time before T just to see if I was the same person in both modes.

So I'm one of the examples why one size does not fit all. And I could have been one example of a detransitioner if my GID had not been genuine but masked by both my DID plus strict adherence to the Standards. Transition consumes lots of energy anyway, but going the strict Standards path would have eaten up much more energy and made me focus too much on the trans stuff and less on other things I had to get done in my life.

Plus I think that this path pushes some people to go through the whole thing. First you "ridiculize" yourself with the "yet no passing but new pronouns and name mode" thing everywhere, then people get somewhat used to it and some of them get your explanation, so then if you go back... that would give you the stigma of being a very unstable person who does not know what they want - wonder how many people go the whole way cause of the fear of getting that stigma, therefore I think that in many cases, it's just counter-productive. Unless your physical make-up is such that you will never pass well.

Instead, I wanted a longer moratorium before getting on T, one year instead of a half from start of therapy with the option of waiting even longer before getting on T. We agreed on that, and I clung to it. (I'm in my second Testo moratorium at the moment.) But the shrink absolutely insisted on me being in male mode full-time for 6 months before T cause he closely observed the Standards so I had to lie to him, which was stressful but hey, I just deliberately split up a little bit again so I could manage to do that without being caught lying (it was counterproductive but necessary for T). I also did not feel free to speak about my doubts with him and hid some things away from him though I was open about having residual DID. He was no expert for DID and was convinced that going full-time before T was THE litmus test to find out whether I still had it or not and I would not get T if I did not do this. And I did not want to wake his suspicions about how I would transition by explaining to him that it's not how it works in multiple systems and why not.

But I had the luck to have my non-transitioning transgendered, genderqueer and dissociative friends to talk to about doubts, alternative options etc. which was a great gift for me and worth more than a gender therapy. And I also read some of the "professional" stuff about GID, some of which was esoteric psychoanalytic weird stuff, and some of which made good sense.

I'd suggest to everyone to read up professional stuff and meet non-transitioning transgendered and genderqueer people unless they have the chance to find a shrink who is somewhat more open-minded and does not adhere to the Standards of Care like they're a gospel. And I think it's a good idea to adapt the Standards to yourself so that you can use other loops and moratoriums for yourself if it feels right for you, rather than rushing through the process.

@Interalia
What you write here is extremely interesting. I'd really love to hear more about the detransitioners you meet, their motivations, how family friends etc. reacted to their detransition and how they cope with it etc. It's very sad the other transsexuals treat them badly.

Before I started to transition I was suicidal. After I began self medicating I couldn't wait for the changes to be visible. I looked in the mirror one day and realized I no longer had a feminine face and thought to myself "it's too late to go back now, thank God."

I have now started to lose my hair, it was a slow loss at first, I just thought my hairline was changing as it seems to do for most FtMs. Then it started thinning, now I am noticeably bald in places. Vanity makes me wish I could keep my hair but there's nothing I can really do about it and at least being bald will help me look more masculine 

The image of the transitioned me I had in my head before I began testosterone bears no resemblance at all to the real me that stares back from the mirror. In my head I'm 6' tall, a full head of hair, athletic and handsome. In reality I am short, overweight and going bald. There is a period that is almost like grieving for the impossible fantasy that I was never going to be anyway. I'm just having to stick it out and work with what nature throws at me. There is a lot that I can do to help myself, ie lose weight and become fit. No matter how hard I try I am never going to reach 6' tall. One thing I do know is that I'm happier as a non-descript male than I ever was as a passable looking female.

I wonder if perhaps the realisation that the actual transitioned self bears very little similarity to the fantasy transitioned self could be a factor in the decision to de-transition for some people?

Regardless of looks the one thing I have found is that since I started on T, I'm the calmest I have ever been in my life. All of my previous life problems are still around, transitioning won't alter those for anyone, but I find that I'm a lot less stressy than I was with people. I finally feel like I've come home after a very long journey.

Obviously any of us could de-transition at any point but it's the consequences of that de-transitioning which would vary for all of us. Some wouldn't be able to live, some would struggle on but hate themselves inside, others may even do quite well.


ETA I did go through a stage of thinking "what the hell have I done?" but I know it's because I was having to adjust to changes and learn to adapt. No matter how much I was desperate to transition it was still hard having to face up to coming out of my every day comfort zone and realize that life is never going to be the same again.

Quote from: Katelyn-W on August 29, 2010, 05:13:55 PM
Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.

Interalia ... Just what you said (at the top of my post) "expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways" made me think why does it have to be limited?

That was my thought too when I first read the Interalia-blog. It seems inherent in the blog that you consider male-bodied persons expressing femininity as something which is somehow wrong or at least in some way having to be limited.

In reality I believe human beings are far more diverse both biologically and psychologically than society usually accepts. After going through personality testing at the GIC I looked-up sex separated scores from the test they used and analysed them. While there was a difference in mean values between the sexes the standard deviation turned out to be four times greater, which translates into some 93% of all people scoring in the area overlapping between the male and female curves. Simmilarily huge variations have been demonstrated in biology. For instance my mother, sister and I were almost exactly the same body height while my only brother is 17 cm higher than me. And there are other oddities about my body too.

I think rather than limiting our expressions we should be much more accepting of natural variation regarding biology, psychology and expression. In fact I have a feeling that in some cases the need to physically transition is strongly coupled with a belief that our way of life will only be socially acceptable if we go through that physical transition.

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 30, 2010, 06:57:39 AM
So I'm one of the examples why one size does not fit all.

Plus I think that this path pushes some people to go through the whole thing. First you "ridiculize" yourself with the "yet no passing but new pronouns and name mode" thing everywhere, then people get somewhat used to it and some of them get your explanation, so then if you go back... that would give you the stigma of being a very unstable person who does not know what they want - wonder how many people go the whole way cause of the fear of getting that stigma, therefore I think that in many cases, it's just counter-productive. Unless your physical make-up is such that you will never pass well.

I agree, while I believe Real Life Experience is very important and that I learned a lot from tackling the initial discrimination, I would have preferred support in doing more experimentation before I started the RLE. I'm not afraid of peoples reactions if I'd switch back to being male, my mother would be way too happy to see that and they'd just disregard my last three years as a phase. No, what worries me is how it would affect my life when I - as most of the persons with a transition pause - find myself retransitioning later. For one thing I'm in the middle of a female gendered education. How would my curriculum end up if I'd go back to working in a completely different trade for lets say three years and then retransition and continue my current education. Would my family - who is reasonly accepting now - understand it?

Quote(I'm in my second Testo moratorium at the moment.)

Do you mean going on and off hormones?

QuoteBut the shrink absolutely insisted on me being in male mode full-time for 6 months before T cause he closely observed the Standards so I had to lie to him, which was stressful but hey, I just deliberately split up a little bit again so I could manage to do that without being caught lying (it was counterproductive but necessary for T). I also did not feel free to speak about my doubts with him and hid some things away from him though I was open about having residual DID.

While I admit I'm no expert on DID I would think RLE is usually a good idea, but it seemed to me that you needed to do more experimentation together with an open minded counseller before starting the actual RLE. I would have preferred that too - not that I do not flourish in my transition, I am just the kind of person who wants to be absolutely sure about the things I do.

When rules are interpreted so strictly that we cannot discuss our doubts with the therapists counselling looses much of its value, sadly.


Tippe

I've had a few times when I thought that life would have been simpler if I hadn't transitioned.  (Transitioning is complicated. )  I would be wistful for the good old days that are in my memory.  But then I would remember that they weren't all that good after all.

Quote from: JohnR on August 30, 2010, 07:24:06 AM
The image of the transitioned me I had in my head before I began testosterone bears no resemblance at all to the real me that stares back from the mirror.

Hoo boy, John, you hit the nail on the head for me.  My (cis) girlfriends are very good at listening to me kvetch about not looking like a 20 year-old college student with a cute body and then telling me to get over myself.  I just look like a normal woman my age, taller than some, slimmer (less curvy) than many, not pretty but OK – normal.

And let's be careful about categorizing.  For one thing, it can get to the point of being against the rules here at Susan's (TOS rule 10).  I used to design databases for a living (among other jobs), and I learned early on that no matter how well-designed a database was, something wouldn't fit into the slots.  As long as we acknowledge that these categories we make up are flexible, with permeable divisions, and that there is no hierarchy, we should be OK.

I began transition so that I could live as a woman at least part of the time and so that I wouldn't have to hide part of who I am from my friends.  I inched along, taking one step at a time to see if it felt right.  In the end, I discovered that with female hormones instead of male and with indoor plumbing instead of outdoor I feel "right" for the first time in my life.  I didn't know that when I began but do now.  (Actually, I didn't know I could feel this good. )  But I also know that my experience isn't everyone's.

- Kate

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AMI agree, while I believe Real Life Experience is very important and that I learned a lot from tackling the initial discrimination, I would have preferred support in doing more experimentation before I started the RLE.

Oh yes. Same for me, or at least acceptance for a gentle slide into full-time RLE without the T start being delayed over and over again until exactly 6 months of full-time, and more freedom for experimentation. E. g. switching between male, female, neutral and drag clothes daily just to see what that made with me. Well I still did what I wanted after therapy start but lied at my shrink, and kept/hid away from other trans people who had contact with him when I was dressed in drag or female. My biggest fear at that time was - them telling him they had seen me in a dress, so I only wore female stuff when I was relatively safe or hid female tops under a male jacket until at work etc. Just one example of the flexibility options I would have liked to keep and explore openly.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AMI'm not afraid of peoples reactions if I'd switch back to being male, my mother would be way too happy to see that and they'd just disregard my last three years as a phase. No, what worries me is how it would affect my life when I - as most of the persons with a transition pause - find myself retransitioning later. For one thing I'm in the middle of a female gendered education. How would my curriculum end up if I'd go back to working in a completely different trade for lets say three years and then retransition and continue my current education. Would my family - who is reasonly accepting now - understand it?

Yes, I understand that. I was not afraid of peoples' reactions in my private life for almost the same reasons as you. But I was afraid of peoples' reactions at work and university should I decide to stop the RLE and go back to female mode. Which is why I did not out myself there even after I was one year on testo (I just shaved right before work/university, did not honestly answer colleagues' questions about my voice change, wore mostly male clothes there and changed my job after that, and university was over then anyway). I did not want to put anything in my way if I decided to detransition socially, so transition at work was no option for me at that time. I know my personality and fear of mobbing well enough to know I could have shunned away from early detransitioning if I was too out as trans everywhere too early - meaning before passing was possible cause of T effects.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
Do you mean going on and off hormones?

Yes, off T at the moment, completely pre-op as well, but living in male mode (and cause of the chances, zero passing as female, not even as a butch lesbian any more). Just to see what that does do my body and how I psychologically react to these changes. I'm not out as being off T to anyone of the people in my life but three or four friends. One of the additional loops I decided to implant for myself which the Standards don't request anyone to do.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
While I admit I'm no expert on DID I would think RLE is usually a good idea, but it seemed to me that you needed to do more experimentation together with an open minded counseller before starting the actual RLE. I would have preferred that too - not that I do not flourish in my transition, I am just the kind of person who wants to be absolutely sure about the things I do.

I'm like you here. Well I did the experimentation anyway and had started doing it with the aim of finding out what's GID and what's DID about me two years before I started therapy. But I did not feel like I could be open about what I actually did and had done at therapy. And yes, I had no councelling for my experiments by any professional, but the friends I had helped here just as well if not better.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
When rules are interpreted so strictly that we cannot discuss our doubts with the therapists counselling looses much of its value, sadly.

Agree 100%. This is why I think both German and Benjamin Standards should allow more different paths, not faster or "easier" ones, but just... different paths between which you could decide together with your therapist.