Quote from: Nygeel on September 13, 2010, 02:07:15 PM
I don't understand the bolded...nor do I understand why feeling like modifying your body=something wrong.

I said that first bit because I noticed that the FtMs were the ones that seemed to take the most offense to the original post. And I never said there was anything wrong with simply "feeling like" modifying your body. It becomes a problem when an otherwise normal cis female feels the "need" to modify her body. Very different.

Quote from: Ayaname on September 13, 2010, 02:15:01 PM
I said that first bit because I noticed that the FtMs were the ones that seemed to take the most offense to the original post. And I never said there was anything wrong with simply "feeling like" modifying your body. It becomes a problem when an otherwise normal cis female feels the "need" to modify her body. Very different.

I still don't get it. I see that you noticed that FTMs feel overall ticked off with the post but don't get like..."The stigma" or whatever it is we're "trying to escape."
Guess I kinda bolded the wrong thing. I'm out of it today.

Quote from: Nygeel on September 13, 2010, 02:19:02 PM
I still don't get it. I see that you noticed that FTMs feel overall ticked off with the post but don't get like..."The stigma" or whatever it is we're "trying to escape."
Guess I kinda bolded the wrong thing. I'm out of it today.

I guess I based it on the assumption that as children who don't yet understand what it means to be trans, there was probably a lot of built up resentment towards the typical female role and all of the stereotypes that go with it. In my experience a person will usually boil over with this resentment sometime either shortly before or after they realize who they really are. I've seen it a thousand times and even though that itself is a generalization it still seemed worth mentioning as I could have bet that FtMs would be more likely to take offense to the original post before seeing any of the replies. It just fit.

Right - Time for a gentle but official caution I think. 

Stay on track people, and don't let this get too personal please. So far this thread has been interesting but lets not get too bogged down in the minutae please or it could end up being locked if it degenerated into sniping.

Also it would probably be best if we didn't do too much speculative thinking for others about how we THINK they MIGHT feel about the issue. It's probably better if each of us talks from our own experience and lets others speak for themselves.

Lets keep this thread the respectful debate that it has so far remained and then it will stay open.

Thank you for your attention and cooperation.

I've only been to a few gay/tg bars/clubs, and they definitely aren't best places to work on social skills. Meat market is a better description. I can somewhat agree on some of the generalizations made in the original post, but some MTFs like to go with an "ultra-fem persona" to make up for what they may feel is lacking elsewhere to compensate.

As for all the different types of trans-persons, that's why there are all the different colors in the rainbow. If it feels good, do it.

Ok, let me point out a few more things here. Should all women or men act the same? Nope. Should all TSs transition the same way? Nope. There are always bell curves that most people fall under and it doesn't mean that one must fall within a certain range. There is often more than one path to reach a goal as well. The point I'm making is that there are a lot of mis-aligned labels out there and an awful lot of bad advice coming from the transgendered community itself. For a young TS or someone in the middle of trying to figure themselves out this can be dangerous. Why else then would there be a standards of care that includes seeing a string of varied professionals? Please note that I am speaking from my own experiences which will not be the same as everyone else's.

So let's roll the clock back a little bit. It was only recently (as in 2008) that I started to learn and come to grips with my gender identity issues although now looking back to childhood I can see the endless strings of warning signs that I had previously ignored. So back in 2007 I went to a certain gay bar. At that time this is what I learned about TG people. There were the drag queens which were basically guys who dressed up as girls and who often performed on stage. The TSs were the ones with boobs. That's right and that is still how poorly defined it is in that same (and countless other places) bar today. If you've taken hormones and have had a boob job, you are a TS. If not, you are a DQ. Nonsense. When I first started presenting female which was mainly experimentation at the time, I was referred to as "being in drag" by others. Nonsense as well. By that time I had started to read and learn more and I certainly didn't feel like I wanted to call it "drag." So I called myself a CD (crossdresser). I considered myself to have two personalities or lifestyles--that of a male persona which I would present to the world during the non-interesting times in life (work, errands, family) and a female persona I would present in the fun times (the social scenes).

Well by early 2009 I realized that this wasn't quite right either. After all, it never really felt like it was about the clothes anyway and a much more serious internal struggle was going on. Again, I haven't transitioned yet but then you could say I have to a degree at least in terms of my appearance compared to what it was in 2007. Anyway let's get to the point:

There is nothing wrong with DQs, CDs, pre-op, post-op, and non-op TSs, and those questioning. What is wrong is when a significant portion of what people present and advise is incorrect. I've learned there are three realities in this world: the way things seem to be, the way things should be, and the way things really are. I know T-girls who are buying hormones off the street and from Mexico (lots of them). I know T-girls who have had direct silicon injections to form boobs and I know one who does this illegal operation all over the country (imagine if the FBI got wind of it), I know plenty of T-girls who believe pre-op and post-op refers to getting a BA, plenty of T-girls that have spent 10+ years involved in "she-male" porn and prostitution where their penis is the last thing they want to lose, I know T-girls who dance up and down on their Myspace pages saying "I'm a TS!!!!" as if this is a status symbol, and these girls that have spent 10+ years hooking and hanging in the same gay bars have no real intention of actually transition and seem to plan on porn and hooking until they are age 80 (get real). The concept of SRS is rarely discussed and few of these girls have even heard of the standards of care or understand the proper way to transition nor do they care.

I am constantly being told I need more makeup, more jewelry, sexier clothes. I need hormones, a BA, and to get a sugar daddy. Again, not a word about SRS and not a word about anything logical or sensible. There is a reason for this. Go back to the three realities. TG people are coming out now like the gays did years ago. There was a time when a black person was seen as a big lipped person who spoke ebonics and ate fried chicken. Then a time when gays were ridiculously effeminite men who danced around with flowers in a pride parade. When people start coming out they get exposure in the media. This is good and bad. Good in that they are starting to get attention, bad in that they are getting the wrong attention. A black person is someone who gets up and goes to work in the morning, a gay person is someone who gets up and goes to work int he morning, a transsexual is someone who gets up and goes to work in the morning. Get my point? These stereotypes are not only coming from the media but from loud mouths within the group themselves that are trying to live up to the "reality TV" image which is not reality.

Yes gay bars are good training grounds but when you look at the horrible misconceptions that are promoted there by people claiming to be TS themselves but who are literally interested in nothing more than a life of prostitution, porn, and finding sugar daddies with no sensible transition goals in mind, it sets an extremely dangerous environment for an actual TS who is trying to understand herself. While I do shy away normally from accusing someone of being something they are not, it is relevant to point out that there are a lot of fake people out there. They may be intentionally fake or they simply don't understand themselves.

I'm still learning myself. This is what I have learned in my journey of self discovery: Say I'm sitting in a gay bar wearing jeans and a top and a small bit of makeup and only barely passing enjoying a drink with friends and minding my own business. When someone I don't know walks up to me and says "I'm a TS, I can help you" and then starts giving me unsolicited advice on fixing my hair, needing more makeup, and asked "when I'm getting a BA or hormones" is to take their advice and flush it down the toilet. Not everyone is the same nor should they be including TSs. That is why when someone gives you advice where you never asked for it or if the advice puts you out of your comfort zone you should severely scrutinize such advice and consider dismissing it altogether. Professionals are not exempt from this either. There are a ton of therapists and psychiatrists who give TSs horrible advice. This is why I'm ranting. There are too many people out there "meaning" to do well for us, claiming to be survivors and livable examples, when a lot of it is utter nonsense and lies. Thanks for listening.

Dear Britney,

thank you for this thread. I haven't met any of this sub-type of transsexuals yet, so I cannot say much from my personal experience. But I know another sub-type from another subculture, which comes somewhat close to what you describe, and which I met in a fetish bar. They did not sell their body there nor look for a sugar daddy, and they did not even work in the porn industry. However, some of them - not all - seemed somewhat weird for me to say the least, with over-done extremely feminine somewhat drag queen-like outfits (very different from the GG outfits there), and they gave me more the impression of crossdressers having made the worst mistake of their life by transitioning. Not just with their clothing styles etc., but with everything. They had been on hormones, name hange, bottom surgery ahead or done, and they seemed to mostly socialize with crossdressers/->-bleeped-<-s. And I know quite a couple of crossdressers and MTFs so I can compare a bit...

They did not try to advise me on how to dress etc. more female, but it seemed to me that it would have been a bad idea to follow their suggestions on this topic anyway if a decent passing is what you're aiming at. People there knew I was a transman as I had already been there before transition and went to that place until I had a 100% passing as male and 0% passing as a female. I did not like the idea that some of the guests might think I might be like "one of" the kind of people I've just described above though we were all transsexuals. Call me close-minded or prejudiced or whatever for that if you want to.

It was interesting to read about your experiences with the gay bar people there, as I did not know anything about the sub-type of transsexuals you described. And I did not understand why you got so much bad feedback for your posting. And if you got so much bad advice from the gay bar TS, it is a good idea that you warn other people from blindly following these advices. Which can also be applied generally to anyone giving anyone advice on any topic.

Perhaps it all boils down to this:

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 14, 2010, 02:41:19 AM
when someone gives you advice where you never asked for it or if the advice puts you out of your comfort zone you should severely scrutinize such advice and consider dismissing it altogether.

Any advice should be weighed to see how it may apply to you.  Sometimes people offering advice have their own issues that they are addressing rather than your best interests in mind.  And I don't think that bars are necessarily good places to find role models.

Several months into my RLE, a cis-woman I know described seeing the kinds of TS's Britney describes.  She then said with some amazement: "But you're so normal!"  I replied that I am normal – a normal transsexual.

It all depends on what you want and what you need and what kinds of role models are available to you.  My role models are my cis-women friends.  I will always be a transsexual, but I am also just a woman – the same as my friends are.

- Kate

I am not sure how much I can fault people who give me unsolicited (and usually poor) advice. The way I figure it, their point of view is very much caught in their own frame of reference, they have only lived their own life, with their own dreams and their own insecurities.

The truth of the matter is it doesn't really matter if the advice is well intentioned or they are just trying to validate their own path vicariously, you are the only person that lives your life therefore the only person qualified to decide what is best for you.

This all being said, we don't know what is best for those TS's that the OP spoke of, certainly the idea that they never want to lose their penises is something I cannot relate to, but I lack their frame of reference, I haven't lived their life, and I certainly wouldn't judge it. I would never be like them and that is fine, but that doesn't make them horrible to me, just different than me.

I use this theory alot in my day to day life, if I didn't I think I would be just a big ball of negative energy as there are so many groups of people I don't understand and would never want to be like, but instead of disliking them I try and look at it from a point of view that I don't really have enough information to dislike them.

Very well said, Hikari.

I think people put way too much importance on normalcy and pass way too much judgment on those who don't fit their criteria of "normal." I've met people who have all kinds of body modifications--gages, tattoos on their face, subdermal implants, etc--who some people would probably consider "freaks" and they were really nice, interesting people. And I think the whole boobjob-as-sign-of-insecurity concept needs to be re-examined in our society. People get all tatted out, pierced up, and modify their bodies in all these other ways. Some people spend thousands of dollars on their tattoos, more than what they'd spend on a boobjob, but we don't say they're not a "real person" because they felt the need to get tattoos. We just say they're following the current trend. Why is a cis-woman then not a "real woman" if she feels the need to get a boobjob? Maybe she too is just following the current trend. There was a guy on Letterman a few years back (a male identified guy) who got a boobjob as part of a bet. A friend of his bet him to get one and to keep them in for a certain amount of time; I don't remember how long. He said he would pay him like $50,000 or something, plus the cost to get them removed. Again, I don't remember the actual amount, but I'm pretty sure it was in the tens of thousands. Well, the guy won the bet and decided to keep them in permanently. He said he just liked having them. Some people called him a freak, a weirdo, and claimed it isn't "normal" or that it's "unnatural." I say, who gives a crap. Maybe if we had more people who aren't "normal" we wouldn't have so much discrimination in our society. Or rather, perhaps a better way of phrasing it is, maybe if we had more diversity we wouldn't have so much discrimination in our society. Sorry if this is detracting from the original topic.

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 13, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
I go to a lot of gay bars which is probably a mistake but I like many TGs do so because we either haven't transitioned yet or haven't gotten the confidence yet that we pass well enough to play pool with the straight guys at the straight bars. Regardless, I've learned a lot about the transgendered "world" and how much of it is full of bold-faced lies.

Let's get started. We know that TGism comes in a number of forms. Transgender means "crossing traditional gender lines." That includes drag queens, ->-bleeped-<-s, crossdressers, and transsexuals. These gay bars that are allegedly trans-friendly tend to take all of these different types, put them in a blender, and turn it on until it becomes one big soup that nobody can understand. I've learned that a big part of these lies are coming from TG people themselves who are either extremely confused or simply buying into the nonsense they see on popular television.

I'll try not to make this too long but don't bet on it. I started out crossdressing fully one night with the help of friends. I went out to a gay bar I had previously been at as a "man." I thought it was just something I tried. I thought I was just a crossdresser--someone who generally likes to dress up as a woman and present female from time to time but who is otherwise happy and comfortable living a male life. Well, the TSs started telling me how much I need to start doing this. I need hormones, I need boobs, I need to go full time. Such truths but such lies. It has now been over two years since that day and I've realized how much of these environments are fiction. Let me explain.

A TS woman is a woman not just someone who wants to feel like a woman or who wants to have sex as a woman. Obviously by now I've realized I am not just a crossdresser but this realization came through my own self disovery and by actually rejecting the constant unsolicited advice from other "TSs" to do this and do that. Let's be frank. These same people who call themselves transsexuals have been coming to the same gay bars for years and years and years. They don't want to take hormones regularly because they don't want to lose their libido. They are prostituting and penetrating men. They are making porno videos in the "she male" category. They are doing drag shows every weekend. Yes, they have boob implants and laser hair removal but not a one of them wants to lose their penis. I knew one transwoman who only occasionally dropped into this bar and she finally got her SRS. Now she has never been seen again. This got me thinking. These same girls who are still to this day telling me how I need to get on hormones, get boobs, fix up my hair, put on more makeup, have skimpier dresses, etc. all balk at the mention of SRS. They can't see how I could be serious that I would even contemplate losing my penis.

Let's go back to the one who got SRS and disappeared. It all makes sense now. What do women in general do? Do they go to gay bars every weekend in over-feminine outfits with excessive makeup on and do shows? Do they find prostitution and pornography interesting for their careers? No they don't. What do they do? They get up and go to work in the morning. They pay their bills and pay their taxes. They date and fall in love. They were jeans and a shirt to a gas station and something sexy for a night out on the town. They don't need excessive makeup, ultra-feminine clothes, and extremely large breasts, and men over every night to feel more like a woman. They don't need that because they are women, period. Well a true transwoman is simply a woman and should generally think, act, and be like any other woman in society not including the special challenges and alterations that come with transtition.

So to sum up my point. A lot of people are playing girl out there. That is fine. That is what makes a TV or a CD. There is nothing wrong with this at all. What is wrong is the misinformation and inappropriate labelling that is dangerous and confusing to the TS who is trying to understand herself and where she needs to go. A TS is a woman who defines herself as a woman and not a TS like it is some fashion statement. And honestly, why do I need slut-like clothes and excessive makeup to be a woman? Why would I need big boobs? Last time I checked when I see women running errands during the day or even at straight bars and restaurants at night they are simply wearning normal female clothes with minimal makeup. So to sum up my rant, basically it is more of a warning that there are an awful lot of people out there who identify as TS who are giving other TSs extremely bad advice. Open your eyes and look. There are women and there are those who are playing girl. If you don't see GGs doing it, then you are likely on the wrong track. And I'm sick of these so-called TSs asking me when I'm going to get on stage to perform. Um, I'm not a drag queen and if these girls actually are TSs then why is it for ten years their lives have solely been based around hooking, show performances, and the porn industry? Doesn't sound like normal female behavior to me. Enough said.

Well you pretty much got it.  A TS woman pretty much just wants to live a normal life as woman, since its kind of been pre-built into her.  Your depressed when you see your body and it doesnt match other women.  It has nothing to do with sex with anyone really.  I knew i was different when i was 5, my brain didnt work the same way as other boys, and I didnt know why things were harder, yet i could mix with girl groups pretty easily and felt comfortable.  I had your typical well adjusted boy upbringing too, 2 parents, 1 older sister i didnt see much of, friends.  I was happy, but didnt realize how different i was till i looked back. 

The sad part is  a lot of TS girls cant afford the hormones and start sex trade jobs to get by, some want SRS but actually like the money more and know if they got it, the money will end, and that is all they know how to do.  I do know one girl who talked about it, and lived it, she broke free of it but it took a lot of effort once your embedded in that lifestyle, eventually went to college and did well, but her past will always haunt her and the things she did.  In the my old doctors office i saw a lot of these girls getting shots, two were arguing over the same guy paying one more then the other to sleep with him, both had chanel bags and dressed provocatively.  Its as sad thing to see...

All I know is I'll never hang out in gay bars because I never hang out in bars anyway

g

Your description describes the majority of TS's I've met.  One of the few who didn't match this characteristic became one of my best friends during transition.  More about my experiences can be read here: http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-transition.html

Believe it or not I'm not as judgmental as I seem in these posts. But let's be real here. Again there are three realities in this world: they way things seem to be (what your TV portrays of the world), the way things should be (your own perceptions of reality), and the way things actually are (if a tree falls in the forest and no one can hear it that means that it still did in fact make a sound).

If someone needs/wants to make porno or prostitute that is fine with me. Some women do it as a temporary means of sustenance. Some actually enjoy it. Some do it and they don't know why. That is what I'm going to touch upon: doing things you don't know why which is a lot of American society. This is a fast track world and a lot of people get caught up in it. That doesn't mean it is wrong. Everyone has their own needs and wants and ways of acquiring them. It does mean though that some choices have rewards and other choices have consequences. Let's look at the choice of the MTF TS.

I could fast track it which is what these girls I'm talking about here are doing. I could sell a bunch of my valuables first thing tomorrow and go schedule a boob job the same day. I can get hormones right now if I want just with a phone call. I could leave right now and give someone a ->-bleeped-<- for $100 or more tonight. I have enough clothes that I could just start dressing as a female full time starting first thing tomorrow. There is an easy and fast path and a hard longer path. What I described is the easy fast path but it has consequences. Sure, you are now a full time TS living as a woman but a woman being used by men, a woman who hasn't taken the right steps to do it right, does not pass, is seen as a misfit, and still associates with the gay and "->-bleeped-<-" scene which is drugs, bars, porn, and hooking (not all of it but enough of it). Then you get caught and are arrested and put with men. Or you die from the hormones you took without a prescription. Or someone kills you or you get sick of it all and kill yourself. Some people take this path and they end up fine but these TSs I'm referring to are basically living the life of a self-identified TS and not a life of a woman. Ok some women do porn and hook but let's get real here. I'm still not judging here but again choices have consequences, others have rewards. Some lives have a future and some do not.

The other choice is to take the slow hard path and do it correctly. Dress like a boy or androgynous as you need to. Get to a therapist and set up a plan to tackle one step at a time. Decide when to start the hormones under a doctor's care or if you even need them at all. Decide when or if you get FFS, when or if you get a BA, and SRS. Decide who to tell, when to tell, and what to tell. Decide when and how you should start changing your personal appearance and how rapidly. When to go part time and when to go full time. Spend money wisely and do things wisely. Tread slowly and cautiously until one day you wake up as a mostly passable girl who simply runs by the post office, the gas station, and the drug store in the morning on the way to work--under a legal female name and a legal female gender. Happiness is never guaranteed and it is really what you make of it. The point again is it really comes down to choices we make and not all choices work for all people but we can't deny that certain choices lead to certain overall trends and consequences.

So I go back to my original point about "transsexual lies." The TSs I'm describing in these bars are choosing the fast-track reality TV life of a "->-bleeped-<-." If it works for them that's great but it doesn't work for everyone. Worse, when the trans and non-trans population starts to learn about what transsexualism really is look at what they are presented with. Pop culture isn't about normalcy but sensationalism. People aren't seeing the normal TS woman who simply "buys milk in the morning" they are seeing a man in a dress hanging out in the alleys of gay bars. That is what the TV is telling them and that is what the TSs who make the fast-track choice are essentially doing. And these choices and bad advice certainly do have consequences. Almost every time we hear about a transgender hate crime murder it is not the TS who has simply become a woman and moved on with her life. It is usually about a TS prostitute found on the street shot or strangled in her own bedroom.

I'm not trying to be depressing or cynical in this post but the truth is the truth. I'm not saying people don't have the right to live how they wish. I'm not even judging the girls I know who live this kind of lifestyle. I'm point out that choices have consequences and that we need to be careful where we take our advice from. Most of this advice is not coming from the quiet TS living her life and helping another sister along after having been there herself. The advice is coming from the loud mouthed idiots who are on reality TV, on escort and ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- sites, and in gay bars. Don't believe me? Pertend you just figured out you are a TS. Google it. Before you find support sites like Susan's and educational articles you will find porn and dating sites, galleries, celebrity gossip, and similar nonsense.

Have a nice night.

To respond to another point someone made here about diversity being good. I agree but again just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it won't have consequences. Sure, you can cover yourself in tattoos and get piercings everywhere. It may look cool and there is nothing wrong with that. But then when you get denied a job because of your personal appearance then that part of reality also sets in. We do need brave souls who push the boundaries to get more things accepted and I think that is great. Often someone has to suffer for someone else to succeed. But that is a choice that only you can make. The TDOR started after someone opened her door. A simple decision not to open a door may have saved her life but then she wouldn't have inadvertantly started a reaction. It may be a terrible example and way of looking at it but it is the truth. Diversity is good but you have to use common sense as well. Just because I can dress up as a flaming drag queen and go to a redneck biker bar doesn't mean I should. We all must pick and fight battles. Some do it wisely and some do it poorly. I could get a BA tomorrow from black market silicone direct injections and die in 15 years or I can wait a few years and go to a reputable surgeon. Good things come to those who wait. Haste makes waste. You get the idea.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I wear jeans, sneakers and bland, modest blouses.

Yay for sneakers!

Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I am not proud to be TS, to the contrary, I'm very ashamed of it.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on September 15, 2010, 05:09:21 AM
I do resent that I'll be sentenced to a life of dilation, a constant, painful reminder of my past.

Um, brushing my teeth each morning reminds me that I have teeth, but not in a painful way.

My closest long-time friends are a gay couple who have been together for the 25 years I've known them.  They are ordinary, intelligent, good-looking men who are a couple.  They have told me a few stories about "the gay scene" but both found out very soon that it wasn't for them.  They met walking on the beach, were attracted to each other, got to know each other, and have been together ever since.  They don't go to gay bars or any bars.  They don't look like television gay men.  They don't act like stereotypical gay men except when they are pretending.  They fit some stereotypes of gay men but don't fit others.

I think the same is true for transsexuals.  There are some – the visible ones – who hook and flame and make a big deal about being TS.  And then there are the rest of us, who just want to change our bodies enough to live our lives as the women we are.  A talk show with a panel of "ordinary" transsexuals (if you could get them to agree to go on the show) would be boring.

I think of myself as an ordinary transsexual – a woman who was born with a male body.  Once I realized I could do something about being a woman living as a man, I cautiously, quickly changed what I could to become a woman living as a woman.  (When asking for hormones, I told my doctor that I wanted to change my body as quickly as possible safely.  I could have changed it more quickly, but I want to live a long, happy life as a woman.)

I have accepted that I am transsexual.  It is just another aspect of who I am, like my poor eyesight or my aging face.  Because I am established in a small town, I have to be out unless I move.  Other than that, I am just a woman with an unusual past.

I think that many (most? all?) of us want to change right now once we decide to do it.  There lies danger.  Being able to live your life as a woman is a process of adjustment and learning and reflection.  Hurrying the process will cause problems later.  We make our choices and then live with the consequences.

If you want to be a drag queen, a drag queen may be able to give you some good advice on how to do that.  If you want to be an ordinary woman, a woman friend may be able to help you, or perhaps another TS who has achieved status as an ordinary woman can advise you.

[I use the term "ordinary woman" to denote a woman who is accepted as a woman in mainstream society.]

- Kate

I do find this 'ordinary woman' thing quite interesting, while you may approve or disapprove of lifestyle choices, womens womanhood is never called into question in the way that has been talked about with regard to trans women. Hilary Clinton is a woman and no one would ever question this, same goes for Britney Speers, Lady Gaga (alright some people have questioned this with gaga), Dita Von Teese, K D lang, Courtney Love, Whitney Houston or any other woman, whether they are into library visits, heavy bondage or hard drugs, it just isn't an issue. So I find it a bit strange when we talk as though our preferences and personality have some deep relevence to our gender identity and that trans women who don't conform to our image of an ordinary woman are somehow not real. Live and let live, that's what I say,and if anyone needs me, I'll be at the library (honest! )

Quote from: MillieB on September 15, 2010, 12:46:51 PM
I do find this 'ordinary woman' thing quite interesting, while you may approve or disapprove of lifestyle choices, womens womanhood is never called into question in the way that has been talked about with regard to trans women. Hilary Clinton is a woman and no one would ever question this, same goes for Britney Speers, Lady Gaga (alright some people have questioned this with gaga), Dita Von Teese, K D lang, Courtney Love, Whitney Houston or any other woman, whether they are into library visits, heavy bondage or hard drugs, it just isn't an issue. So I find it a bit strange when we talk as though our preferences and personality have some deep relevence to our gender identity and that trans women who don't conform to our image of an ordinary woman are somehow not real. Live and let live, that's what I say,and if anyone needs me, I'll be at the library (honest! )

Oh my, I got this Lady Gaga-questioning phonecall from my parents tonight as they "heard rumors" she was an MTF and wanted my "expert's" opinion here. Sometimes it's useful to have a transsexual son. Well it was not the only reason they called me. Er, I think Lady Gaga's a GG. Low voice? Are you kidding? Plus female skeleton etc. Unless she's one of the few fortunate ones who could transition before puberty hit them, and I don't think that's the case here. Maybe what confuses people is her ultra-femme but at the same time aggressive gender presentation. Okay, back to topic.

I think the issue here is not general lifestile choices. It's rather about trans-specific issues, like getting money for surgery etc., longing to be seen somehow as a woman and being ready to trade off your self-respect for this, some distorted vision of womanhood, and I  also guess (but I don't know that sub-culture so I can't judge for sure) some people who are not really transsexuals but rather fetishists.

Honestly, let me read a couple more stories like that, and I might eventually develop a sexual phantasy about it. Like, treating one of these women like the ladies they are inside IF they are ladies inside, going to a nice restaurant with them and have nice conversation there, not tearing them into my bed, not grabbing after their dick or tits or asking anything about their physical make-up, just treating them gentleman-like with respect. No sex involved, not even after the 30th date, just medieval-like courtship. Sounds pretty boring, conservative and non-sexual, I know, but it's like I want a woman to be treated with respect if she is worth it. I want to see her smile and see her eyes shine and want her to be happy with me around. Well, and in the meantime, I can always choose the do-it-yourself solution for my urges.Okay, the idea here is about me being the special guy in her live. I admit that.

->-bleeped-<-. I'm getting romantic here. I hate that anyway. Especially as I know that prostitutes tend to develop a thick skin to protect themselves from emotional envolvement and to become tough and rough. Okay, next time I go to a gay bar, I'll check out both the guys and girls and not concentrate on TS people - as I always did anyway. In the gay bars where I was, there were always only two or three TS-women anyway.

Oh, and gay bars are not completely pointless to go to if you're looking for a hook-up. I got hit on by bi guys there quite often before transition ("Well, in fact I was just looking for a guy here to hook up with tonight, but you're pretty hot.") Or by straight friends of gay guys. I never let this turn into anything more than flirting though, as it always pissed me off to be "the only girl interested into boys" there. I wore drag, but I was not a girl.

hey Millie, some of us are talking about this "ordinary woman" thing (well more-or-less anyway ) over here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,83818.msg592246.html

Just thought I mention it, in case you might be interested in joining

g