But that all still implies that GLBS people wouldn't date someone with a different gender identity, which isn't true. I identify as gay, but gender identity isn't a factor in my sexuality - I'm attracted exclusively to male bodies that produce male pheromones, but those bodies can house quite a range of minds with different gender identities.

And a lot of people do include trans people in their list of reasons why they identify as pansexual.

Quote from: kyril on November 06, 2010, 02:55:56 PM
And a lot of people do include trans people in their list of reasons why they identify as pansexual.

I know thats why I said shouldn't and not don't.

I identify as pan even though I almost exclusively only like male looking bodies.

I'd date a trans woman, but I wouldn't go specifically looking for one obviously.
I imagine it could get fun with double the dysphoria flying around though.

Quote from: Ryan on November 06, 2010, 06:41:45 PM
I'd date a trans woman, but I wouldn't go specifically looking for one obviously.
I imagine it could get fun with double the dysphoria flying around though.

Sevan just said you hit the nail on the head when I read this too hir.
Dude....omg you dont know the half of it.

<sub>On the pansexual topic, I  identify as pansexual, and when asked what it means, I say, "I'm attracted to people." Rather than "I'm attracted to men, women, trans, etc." That being said, when asked what my orientation is I'm more than happy to just say I'm queer, and leave it at that..
On another note, I haven't had much experience with relationships but as said up there^ I'm attracted to people, so I wouldn't exclude another trans person.

*if that makes sense*</sub>

I would date/be in a relationship with a woman (maybe not only women anymore, don't know, that's been confusin me lately)whether she was trans or not or genderqueer/non-binary it does matter way more about personality and how much we have in common. i just wanted the point i made last night to be made just because i wasn't completely sure what you meant but now i do lol. i wasn't reeeally creeped out or uncomfortable by it, just makin sure heh heh.

I haven't dated and wouldn't date an MTF, but I know a few trans people in my local community who have dated other trans people (MTF + FTM, that is).

I'm pansexual. Right now I'm just nothing because unless I meet someone really special I'm waiting until I'm at a comfortable point in transition to date. I feel like if I'm not happy with myself at all right now then I can't make someone else happy. Maybe I'm odd though.

Quote from: kyril on November 06, 2010, 02:55:56 PM
But that all still implies that GLBS people wouldn't date someone with a different gender identity, which isn't true. I identify as gay, but gender identity isn't a factor in my sexuality - I'm attracted exclusively to male bodies that produce male pheromones, but those bodies can house quite a range of minds with different gender identities.

And a lot of people do include trans people in their list of reasons why they identify as pansexual.

Conversely to this poster I identify as gay but I don't mind if the body is female as long as the gender identity is masculine. I don't find femininity attractive, hence I wouldn't date an mtf but would another ftm.

The only reason I wouldn't date a pre-transition mtf because it wouldn't be fair to her: I'd be attracted to the physical traits that she disliked/rejected/didn't identify with. I wouldn't be attracted to an mtf on HRT for the same reason I wouldn't be attracted to a natal female of any identity.

I would probably be attracted to an ftm on T if he were my type, and if so I would date him, though I haven't been in close enough proximity to one to find out (that I know of).

And I've been attracted to male-assigned androgynes and genderqueer people. I'd happily date one of them so long as they were comfortable being male-bodied (if they saw themselves happier with a female hormone balance or female or neutrois genitalia, I don't think I could work with that). Conversely, a female-assigned androgyne who saw themselves as male-bodied would probably work fine after some time on T, but an FTA who was happy with their female body wouldn't work.

So I guess I do care about gender identity somewhat, but only to the extent that I want to be sure that my partner's identity corresponds with the way I see them. The identity in itself is completely unrelated to my capacity for attraction, which operates on the lizard-brain level of "smells male? deep voice? looks healthy?"

I think that's where a lot of the disconnects come in when discussing sexualities, because some people define their sexuality based on a strong lizard-brain reaction that doesn't even recognize gender/identity, while others define it based on some degree of higher level processing that takes in behaviour, personality, and identity inputs. I think that difference might actually be of more interest than the more common ways of dividing up sexualities.

I'd be open to dating a trans person.  I wouldn't seek out TG people specifically, but if someone I liked happened to be trans, it wouldn't be a big deal to me.  Dating a trans person would be good in that there would be another way in which we could relate to each other, but I think the dysphoria would be really hard to deal with.  So it would even out.

I'm gay, and I would date a transitioned trans guy, meaning he'd have to be on T and have had top surgery and be masculine, as I am attracted to male identified people and male bodies.


Jay

Years ago before transition was on either of our radars we both knew eachother had transgender feeling and ideation. When I found out Sevan had GID I latched on. I see hir as my opposite in almost every way. Mutualy suffering from GID although very chalenging is nice in a way.
If I am having some issues behind GID or if ze is, all we have to do is say just that. With a cisgender mate explaining GID and it's symptoms can be a pain in the ***.

I've been dating another transguy for almost 10 months now, so I can confirm at least that FtM+FtM can work excellently. Double the dysphoria is definitely tricky, but it's also great to have someone who actually understands what you're going through. And since I'm bi, I'm not bothered by him being physically female. For that matter, when I look at him all I can see is a guy, even with female attributes.

As for an FtM dating an MtF, my boyfriend and I recently went very long distance, probably long term, and I told him I was okay with him dating someone there, who happens to be a transgirl who's just started to come out. They've been dating for just under a month I think. Seems to be going well thus far - she's asexual so that takes some potential issues away.

In the pansexual debate, I don't like the concept because it seems almost like saying bisexual isn't accepting enough. "You may like both genders but I like ALL genders AND no gender." I understand why some like the term. But the bisexual people I know are all fine with dating outside the binary, so it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Quote from: Nikolai_S on November 07, 2010, 10:35:19 PM
In the pansexual debate, I don't like the concept because it seems almost like saying bisexual isn't accepting enough. "You may like both genders but I like ALL genders AND no gender." I understand why some like the term. But the bisexual people I know are all fine with dating outside the binary, so it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I'll be honest, it makes me intensely uncomfortable that you "don't like the concept" of my sexual orientation. 

It's a perfectly valid identity, and I feel like you're implying that people identify as pansexual just to one-up bisexual people. I don't identify as bisexual because to me it implies that there are only two genders that I can like (bi does mean two), and I don't feel that way. I don't mind people who identify as bisexual (and if they date outside of the binary and identify as bisexual, that's cool too), but I personally don't identify that way as I don't feel that it fits my identity. I'm getting sick of the backlash for being pansexual, most of which, for me, has come from the LGBT community.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I don't want this to go without being addressed 

I'm sorry my phrasing caused offence. I was just giving my input to the conversation that was happening earlier in the thread. A lot of which was already questioning why people identify as pansexual, so I didn't consider my opinion any harsher than that.

I certainly don't have anything against people who are pansexual - my boyfriend identifies as pansexual. But I personally find it so similar to "bisexual" that it's always struck me as an unnecessary distinction. Bi refers to two genders, but I don't see why it can't include people who are 25% of one gender and 75% of the other. Then there is the problem of people who are ungendered, granted. But I've chatted with several pansexuals online, and I've definitely gotten an almost elitist vibe from many of them. I'm not biased against all pansexuals as a result, but that does contribute to my opinion about the term.

edit: I just reread that and I'm pretty sure it sounds like I'm being an arse. I'd post tomorrow when I'm less sleep deprived, but I'd probably have no recollection of this thread anyway.... so sorry, just ahead of time, if this looks rude or something.

No hard feelings. I don't want you to feel like I'm singling you out; I was just skimming through responses and yours caught my eye.

I won't deny that there are some jerks out there with the "holier than thou" attitude. (Between you and me, most of the ones I've known like this were in it for the "look how politically correct I am!!!" factor, and they mysteriously stopped being pan when nobody cared  ) This is not to say that there aren't some pansexuals who really are total tools, but I feel like that happens in every community. There's always going to be a gay/lesbian/bi/pan/omni/poly/a/straight/etc. person who thinks that their orientation makes them the best, but that certainly doesn't mean that all people of that orientation are like that.

While I understand that bisexual and pansexual may seem similar, I still feel like using bisexual for all non-monosexual identities would be rather confusing. Most people interpret bisexual to mean 'likes men and women' (woe to anyone who gets me started on how you don't have to like men and women to be bisexual, and could like any other combination of two genders instead.  ), if people who like more than two genders feel comfortable identifying as bi, then more power to them  ; being able to decide how you describe your identity is empowering, and I'm all for it. A lot of people don't feel comfortable identifying this way though, and, from personal experience, I can tell you that having people insist that I'm bisexual is just as hurtful as being told that I am not a man. Everyone has the right to form their own identity, and I think that Bisexual/Polysexual/Pansexual/Trisexual/Quadsexual/etc. are all separate, valid identities.   

It's hard to convey tone through text, and I don't want you to feel like I'm lashing out at you. I think I understand where you're coming from, and I just want to make my opinions on bisexual=pansexual clear.

For real though, no hard feelings, and I wish you and your boyfriend all the best.

*Thread hijack over  *

I think I know what Nikolai_S is getting at. I've run across a few pansexual people who do seem to have a chip on their shoulder and go out of their way to disapprove of any orientation but pansexuality. It really bugs me when a pansexual officiously says that THEY don't discriminate based on gender. Whenever I hear that, I wonder if they at least draw the line between humans and other species. I know that's obnoxious, but I don't like it when people think they're better than I am because of sexual orientation; I hear enough of that from militant heterosexuals.

But we shouldn't let a few folks give pansexuality a bad name, should we?

Quote from: Brendon on November 07, 2010, 11:54:06 PM
Most people interpret bisexual to mean 'likes men and women' (woe to anyone who gets me started on how you don't have to like men and women to be bisexual, and could like any other combination of two genders instead.  ),

Well, I guess where we differ is that I read bisexual as "likes (some) male and female bodies," which I guess is an outgrowth of my physically-based interpretation of sexuality in general. I don't think most people who identify as bi are talking about gender - I think they're talking about sex.

Quote from: kyril on November 08, 2010, 12:26:09 AM
I don't think most people who identify as bi are talking about gender - I think they're talking about sex.

Are they attracted to the dick, or the person behind the dick?