Thank you for your response, symempathy.

I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.

I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.

All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.

To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.

I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.

I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.

Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.

symempathy,

I apologize in advance if my response is offensive; I am only curious about a very different perspective -_-;;

Reading your posts it seems like you identify as something that is not really man or woman, and you're okay with your expression right now but you want to be on the receiving end of sex.  Would it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak?  It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar.  Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.

I'm not sure from what you've said in this thread whether the outie is a source of distress/disgust for you, but I don't by any means think you should settle for keeping it if you do not want to.  I only mean that you can still enjoy receiving sex as a woman even if you have it.  I'd be curious to hear if that appeals to you, because it seems like a worthwhile option to me, but I could be missing an important difference because of my opposite-ish attitude to the situation T_T


spacial,

It makes me a little sad to hear you are limited in expressing yourself as a woman because other people don't want to see it.  As a petite/femme/cute boy who feels forced into being a girl, I feel like I can relate somewhat.  I'm sure you've heard all the advice/hopeful speech before, I just want to remind you that you aren't as lonely as you think.  I hope you find the fulfillment you seek, whether it involves any transition or not.

Thank you Shiinee. That is very much appreciated.

Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 09:06:22 AM
symempathy,

I apologize in advance if my response is offensive; I am only curious about a very different perspective -_-;;

Reading your posts it seems like you identify as something that is not really man or woman, and you're okay with your expression right now but you want to be on the receiving end of sex.  Would it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak?  It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar.  Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.

I'm not sure from what you've said in this thread whether the outie is a source of distress/disgust for you, but I don't by any means think you should settle for keeping it if you do not want to.  I only mean that you can still enjoy receiving sex as a woman even if you have it.  I'd be curious to hear if that appeals to you, because it seems like a worthwhile option to me, but I could be missing an important difference because of my opposite-ish attitude to the situation T_T

Thank you for your post. You're not offensive. You only say your opinion.
To tell you the truth, before I could identify myself, I had always mirrored heterosexual relationship.

To me, it's not that the relationship involves a woman and a man. It's more about the involvement of masculinity and femininity. And I don't have a clear distinction of these two characteristics. It's just more like a feeling.

I have met some men who are introverts or almost introverts, sensitive, never swears, quiet, yet they are masculine. I am also an introvert; I don't socialize; I work out a lot; I don't swear; I don't like gossiping, yet I'm feminine.

I have been around many men, and the ones I feel attracted the most are the ones who are soft and quiet. I still see masculinity in them.

I know that I'm more like a woman in this aspect. It's just that I don't feel like one.
Back to what you say about going back door, I want a vagina because I mirror the way heterosexual couples have intimacy. I don't idolize them, nor do I hate "intimacy from the back". It's just that the idea never happens to me.

I don't find the way my genitalia looks disgusting. Because I'm generally more feminine than masculine, I prefer that particular organ to be inward.

Quote from: spacial on November 05, 2010, 07:34:35 AM
Thank you for your response, symempathy.

I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.

I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.

All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.

To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.

I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.

I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.

Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.

I understand what you say. Being different makes it hard for us.
Appearance definitely contributes a lot in people's perception of who is a man or woman because it's so obvious.
Although my situation is not better than yours, I'm perhaps luckier than you. At least what I want is hidden inside, and no body can find out unless I let them. What you want shows outside, and it may make you uncomfortable because people can judge you.

I can't tell you what to do. I hope that your taking female hormones and presenting yourself as a male is REALLY what you want to do. Eventually people will have to get used to it.

Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 09:06:22 AMWould it be objectionable to you to let your hypothetical lover in through the back door so to speak?  It's still intimate and wonderful, and (speaking as someone who has two innies and would prefer just having one) the psychological sense of receiving/being penetrated is very similar.  Also plenty of ciswomen do it too.

I know you were not directing this to me, but I just have to comment.

People have often told me the same thing and I do find it objectionable.  I have tried that hole, granted with a non-bio cock, and it does nothing for me.  To suggest that the front hole is just as good as the back hole is preposterous.  Just because your experience in the back hole is good, doesn't mean that it is for someone else.  I wish people would stop making this suggestion when I talk to them about my gender/body incongruence.

There can be no comparison with penetration in the back hole with penetration in the front hole.  The experience is completely different and unrelated. For back hole penetration as male bodied, the only comparison to this for the non trans woman is, well, back hole penetration.  Sure, the back hole can give you the feelings that come with of being penetrated, but just being penetrated in such a way isn't the point. 

Quote from: symempathy on November 05, 2010, 10:35:58 AM
To me, it's not that the relationship involves a woman and a man. It's more about the involvement of masculinity and femininity. And I don't have a clear distinction of these two characteristics. It's just more like a feeling.

I have met some men who are introverts or almost introverts, sensitive, never swears, quiet, yet they are masculine. I am also an introvert; I don't socialize; I work out a lot; I don't swear; I don't like gossiping, yet I'm feminine.

I have been around many men, and the ones I feel attracted the most are the ones who are soft and quiet. I still see masculinity in them.

Thanks for sharing with me, this will give me something to think about today since I don't think I understand the ideas of masculine and feminine particularly well.  Mostly I feel like a boy, which is not feminine but doesn't feel particularly masculine either.  Best of luck in becoming yourself <3

Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 05:02:05 PM
Thanks for sharing with me, this will give me something to think about today since I don't think I understand the ideas of masculine and feminine particularly well.  Mostly I feel like a boy, which is not feminine but doesn't feel particularly masculine either.  Best of luck in becoming yourself <3

Thank you for your kind words.
I can only use the words feminine and masculine to describe myself. It's hard to see it through behavior. I'm quite sure if you see me in real life, you may only think I'm a sensitive and nice man. You may not see my femininity. I don't express it conventionally like other genetic females or effeminate men.

Perhaps my brain is somewhat female-like, but it's not enough for me to desire transition.

Quote from: spacial on November 05, 2010, 07:34:35 AM
I am a woman. I always have been and I've always known it. I just happen to look rather masculine and have an ugly bit in the way.

I appreciate that sounds a bit dilusional, but it's how I've dealt with the situation I'm in.

All other things being equal, I probably would have changed many years ago. But they aren't, sadly. I live within the confines and inhibitions of the most important people around me.

To change now would mean cutting myself adrift. That would affect those who matter most to me. Also, I can't face being lonely again.

I express my femininity, through thought, and how I relate to others.

I dress as female, jeans, sweat shirt and shoes. I don't have breasts so there is no need to wear a bra, but of I did I would. I would like the opportunity to be more expressive, I like to have dresses, but I accept the attitudes of my society.

Many people here seek to express their feminity with clothing, makup, surgery. I am incredably happy and supportive for them. We, each of us,need to find our own routes to fulfillment.

I sincerely wish you luck. However, I don't think you should go half way if your true desire is to let your inner woman shine out.
Absolutely you may face difficulties; however, your inner woman will guide you through it. Don't go half way as I want to do.

After all, my goal for SRS is not the same as yours. I identify myself as an androgyne, so I'm content with the way I look right now. In the future I might change my mind. I know that I may be rejected by other men or resented by other transsexual people. I may have to be alone for a long time, even for the rest of my life. I have mentally been prepared for that. If I had a boyfriend right now, I would tell him the truth about what I want. I may lose him, but I can't be unfair or lying to him.

You have a good heart when you are worried you will hurt people you love. I'm worried too. I don't want to hurt my parents. I don't care about other relatives because they don't sacrifice for me as my parents do. Living for them is more important than living for myself because they deserve a good son. When they pass away in peace, I can do whatever I have to do.

I hope you can find your way to be yourself.

Bigender bio guy here. I have been on full transition level HRT for closing in on a year. I present publicly as either gender each week and passed fine as female & male without hormones. I had no choice but to start HRT to control my severe GD.

The relief from my GD has been a godsend. I'm a 5' 10" 146 pound beanpole and the physical changes from HRT have not affected my ability to present one way or the other. I lost a lot of hair on my arms, legs & chest, and a huuuge amount of upper body bulk. I always had great pecs, now they're a set of 36A's- about perfect for a bigender (I don't have to wear a binder and a pushup is all I need to get a little more curve).

I have off-the-shoulder length surfer hair, had laser/electro to remove my facial hair except for the Van Dyke area I wanted to keep, and my electrologist cleaned up my eyebrows to a kind of natural feminine look. But I do not wear ANY andro clothes, just strong stereotypical female/male styles depending on how I am presenting. I rarely get misgendered as girl and NEVER as a guy.

I'm fairly sure that mast people see me as male as I have a thick full beard I have been on Female hormones for probably 18 months I can't hide who I am on an emotional level but when forced to dress male nobody can tell that I have A cup breasts I think most people who see me in my normal "gender ->-bleeped-<-" presentation assume that I'm flat chested with padding when I'm A cup with padding to fill C cup australian bra size 20C I think that is about 42C US size

QUESTION: if breast growth is the only real give-away, couldn't you just remove them and pass off as a male that way on HRT?..would the breasts just grow back?

I guess you could call me an androgynous..I'm a guy, I don't really have the desire to be 100% woman or crossdress (though I do love wigs, eyeliner and on occasion lipstick haha I just don't care to wear skirts or dresses) but rather just be a really feminine-looking guy..think David Bowie or Brian from Placebo. I guess you can say my main reason for looking into HRT in the first place was to reduce body hair...I'm a fairly hairy guy, and even with electrolysis and stuff I fear the hair will just grow back eventually due to my hormones (I'm noticing more and more little hairs growing in places they never grew before, and I'm way past puberty, I'm 19 now) and also if I could reduce the hair significantly with hormones and then do a bit of electrolysis, well that's less money down the drain...I don't need to be 100% smooth, just less of a wolf and I'm not a masculine guy at all I'm very effeminate so it'd be nice to have a slightly more feminine appearnace. I know impotence is another side-effect, but I don't enjoy sex to begin with and have virtually no sex drive so it wouldn't be much of a loss..and I hear sometimes you might get more hips and butt, which sounds fun to me though I have the body of a stick (I'm 52kg, 5'7) so I don't know if I'd see much of that.

But yeah, not sure where to begin...most people I try and talk to this about look at me like I'm stupid or crazy or just think I should accept what I have been given..but reality is, I am very unhappy with what I see in the mirror, I'm uncomfortable within myself and that amongst other problems have lead me to contemplate pretty dark things that I won't get into detail here..but I just feel feminizing myself a bit would make me much more comfortable in my skin and I feel I'd be somewhat happier. I'm hoping to find people who are more open-minded who would be willing to at least take me through my options in detail in regard sot hormones, pros and cons and all of that without just saying "you can't do that" and leaving it at that. It's frustrating when no one understands or at least the very least willing to sympathize, understand or hear you out.

A few years ago on another forum there was a member who went through HRT to having SRS but continued to present as male in everyday life because of the very senior position held.

I believe that this changed only on retirement.

Caroline

Quote from: carolinejeo on December 02, 2010, 04:01:27 AM
A few years ago on another forum there was a member who went through HRT to having SRS but continued to present as male in everyday life because of the very senior position held.

I believe that this changed only on retirement.

Caroline

How is it possible that one can present as male after taking HRT for a long time? The hormone will change a male body into a female body, won't it?

I believe it is fine, but I don't understand why he has to put himself in a difficult position.

The changes of hormones are very slow and if you continually present most people will not really notice, only people who don't see you for a while may see changes.

However, as I said, this situation changed on retirement (I think at 55) and so is no longer a problem.

Caroline

the changes from hormones are very slow and what they can change is limited less body hair because that is caused by T (asuming you are also on T blockers) body fat relocation it won't move fat from one place to another but new fat is most likely to be in more fem places but your bone structure will not change.  Just taking hormones will not stop you passing as Male,you may after a few years need a binder.  This is all dependent on your age though T causes a lot of changes that are not reversible if you have been through all those changes I think it is all over by about 30 then passing as male while taking hormones may make you look like a "pretty boy" with softer skin and less hair unless you work toward passing as female(hair removal & stuff) I doubt you would bet to a point where you would not be able to pass you may need a binder after a while.

Quote from: Virginia on November 08, 2010, 05:08:33 AM
Bigender bio guy here. I have been on full transition level HRT for closing in on a year. I present publicly as either gender each week and passed fine as female & male without hormones. I had no choice but to start HRT to control my severe GD.

The relief from my GD has been a godsend. I'm a 5' 10" 146 pound beanpole and the physical changes from HRT have not affected my ability to present one way or the other. I lost a lot of hair on my arms, legs & chest, and a huuuge amount of upper body bulk. I always had great pecs, now they're a set of 36A's- about perfect for a bigender (I don't have to wear a binder and a pushup is all I need to get a little more curve).

I have off-the-shoulder length surfer hair, had laser/electro to remove my facial hair except for the Van Dyke area I wanted to keep, and my electrologist cleaned up my eyebrows to a kind of natural feminine look. But I do not wear ANY andro clothes, just strong stereotypical female/male styles depending on how I am presenting. I rarely get misgendered as girl and NEVER as a guy.

It's really awesome to hear you say this it gives me hope for my GD, I'm on full HRT now and identify as gender queer. I'm a couple months into the HRT and so far my biggest kinda of worry is how big will my chest get if really at all.

I've been on full dose HRT testosterone for almost a year now. I still present female and never get questioned about it. My voice has dropped significantly, I grow a beard and have to shave every other day, but as long as I'm in female clothes...everyone assumes me female. Easy peasy.

Your story sounds just like my story.  But like you, I said enough is enough and asked my doctor for a prescription for estrogen.  He referred me to a shrink.  I said no problem and I told her my whole story.  She recommended me for the perscription.  The doctor still said no.  No problem,   I believe the prescription was about $60.00 for a 6 month supply.  I started taking the pills and I never felt better.  I believed I could do this forever.  My breast started getting bigger and I even started wearing a "man bra". Then it all came crashing down upon me.  The problem nobody mentioned.  My voice changed a lot.  At first, people would give me odd looks when I was talking with them. My voice just did not match their perception of me.  I think most people did not notice it consciously but, unconsciously it was very apparent due to the pitch in the voice. I am sure there are numerous studies on the subject.  Yes, people will treat you differently.  That may be good, that may be bad.  I end up changing jobs and it took almost two years for my voice to almost change back. You never said what you do for a living, but in my case I was a corporate executive.  We all make decisions in life.  I am glad that I did something; however, in the end I could not make it work.  I hope someone can benefit from my experience.  The problem with learning through experience is you always get the test first.  Good luck.

No offense trekrider, but I don't believe anyone gets a voice change from estrogen, unfortunately.  Many of us wish we would. Only training makes changes, although experimental surgery seems to be coming along slowly. Estrogen will not raise your voice.  Now testosterone will lower a FTMs' voice.