Well i know i have been somewhat undecided where i stand on the whole issue of being androgyne and some of the quotes i have come across lately have done nothing to try to clear the water on this subject. First quote is "from my understanding the definition of androgyny encompasses looking like both or neither gender" Well from where i see things i feel i am andro becasuse i feel as if i am a mixture of both genders, how i look like is totally irrelevant. Next quote "its important to me that other people who see me cant work out what gender i am"Why? as far as i am concerned i have got to get breasts to be "born" as without them my life on this planet has been pointless (taking my wife and kids out of the equation) but if i do ever achieve my goal what the public thinks if they notice i have boobs well i couldnt care less, im doing this for me no one else. The last quote i would like to mention is "most days i like to wear andrgynous clothes" What are andrgynous clothes? most of all my clothes nowadays are womans, yeah i still wear trousers and jeans etc but they have to be womans sizes as knowing i am wearing size 16 instead of waist size 38 makes me feel just that bit better of myself.

Never quite know why i didnt follow through with changing sex, but having to go to speech thereapy and being recommended to take classes in how to walk and sit like a woman??well that just made me feel uncomfortable, guess i didnt realise how much was involved in being able to get up in the morning and put a skirt and a pair of ballet pumps on, either way i just wasnt prepared to do it, hence why i thought i must be andro, but atfer looking round here im no longer sure, dont really bother me as i feel my life is very much sorted without the labels, just curious i guess.

Since you mention this, I have to ask myself this question: Is androgyne an extension of femininity in a man and masculinity in a woman?

It's not that I deny existence of androgyne identity because I may be one myself. However, from my understanding, being an androgyne is more about the heart than the look.

1/ I don't like women's clothes, but I'm okay with pink color.
2/ My behavior is quite feminine, but I'm not effeminate. I'm sure most people won't think that I'm effeminate when they see me.
3/ I like short hair, but I don't want mustache or beard.
4/ I like my thick neck, but I don't like my prominent Adam's apple.
5/ I'm into men, but  I only like guys who have soft personality. I hesitate ultra macho men and flamboyant ones.
6/ Last but not least, I'm okay with my secondary sex characteristics. They represent my maleness. Nevertheless, I resent my primary one: my genitalia. I want a vagina instead of a penis (I know. It's too unusual, isn't it), but I don't want to transition to a female.

From what I describe myself above, I'm not sure how to identify myself. I still feel pretty much a man, but my perception totally shakes every aspect of what constitutes a man and a woman.

I never thought about the label androgyne until I heard of it, but I'm not sure it fits me. Still, it suits me more than genderqueer because my personality is fixed. I never feel a man one day and a woman next day. Perhaps I'm somewhere on the gender spectrum, and it stays there. It doesn't shift.

Perhaps an easier definition, "androgyne" is an umbrella term that covers any non-cisgender identity/feeling.  It has lots of faces. 

Also, I think that looking androgynous is not part of being androgyne.  Some desire an androgynous look, some don't.  That's more of an effect of being androgyne than actually a part of being androgyne.  That is to say, one doesn't become androgyne because they happen to look androgynous.  Being androgyne is the cause for some people.  Looking androgynous, I'm pretty sure anyway, is never the cause for a person's androgyne identity.

Yeah, being an androgyne is definitely about how you feel on the inside, not how you look.  Therefore, as I feel androgynous, I hate having people peg me as one gender, because, well, it's wrong, it's just not how I feel, not who I am.  Therefore, I dress androgynously to avoid people doing that.  Also, it's just the type of clothes and appearance I'm comfortable with.  It's not much different than FTMs and MTFs trying actively to appear as their identified gender.  We live in this world, and I want to be as true to myself as I can be in it.  Pretending to be a girl or whatever just doesn't work for me.

You know what i love this site, as you can post a thread on here and get intelligent answers and no one brings you down and makes you feel like an outcast if you dont go with the flow, unlike another site i am a member of where at the moment there is all out war going on just because some one has decided to call one of the Queen bees a fraud.
I hate trying to  pidgeon hole myself, as everyone is an idividual and no two people are the same, however with this andro business i sometimes picture myself telling someone i am andro for them to reply "oh your one of those people who like to look as if  they are genderless" which of course from my side of being andro couldnt be further from the truth. At this point i would like to stop as ive just looked up the meaning of Androgyne on wikipedia and it states the following......Many androgynes identify as being mentally between woman and man or entirely genderless so yee ha so your right Jamie it does have lots of faces.

Symepathy i dont think wish to have a vagina instead of a penis to be much more unusual than me to have breasts, but to still remain male a sort of he->-bleeped-<- i guess, but then again if i do mentally feel that i am male and female then ive been right all along that getting breasts is just a way of me becoming complete, just annoys me though that if the herbs im playing about with at the moment dont have the desired effect then the only way i could get proper hormones would be to go and see my GP and tell him i think i am TS. Why the heck dont the medical profession recognise andro's.

being androgyne is how you feel inside.  some of us can't live being seen as the gender that our biology claims we are so we work toward looking looking like ourselves. the Androgynous look used by the fashion industry is only one form of androgynous expression.
If neither Male or Female work for you (cis or trans) then you are part of the androgyne forest. if you have gender disphoria to a level where you need to make some changes to appear as yourself then you may have the need to look androgynous but looking androgynous doesn't make you an androgyne there have been many performers who have had an androgynous  look but I don't know if any of them were Androgynes.

Quote from: shelly on January 06, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
just annoys me though that if the herbs im playing about with at the moment dont have the desired effect then the only way i could get proper hormones would be to go and see my GP and tell him i think i am TS. Why the heck dont the medical profession recognise andro's.

I found out about any GPs in my city who deal with gender issues through one of the support groups I found out that there are 2 GPs in my city after explaining my issues to the one I could get into she agreed to give me scripts for medications even though I said I was androgyne not TS if you are lucky enough to find a doctor who knows of gender diversity beyond the binary you don't need to lie to get the treatment to need.

Always thought i had gender disphoria, but trouble is in this country there is no in between level if you have GD then your TS no one seems to believe that you can actually be stuck in the middle somewhere.Your very lucky finding an understanding GP, i dont want to have a boob job as i would much rather that my breasts remained real, however as a last resort i did think i could go somewhere like thailand to get boobs, but even the clinics i have found there request that you bring along GP letters stating that you are TS, i just thought i would be able to just turn up and get a rack and walk away no questions asked, but it dont look like its gonna be that easy.

Was on hormones for 6 months many years ago and i did get a little growth and the herbs im taking at the mo have turned my skin like silk and my beard growth has become slower and what comes through is also very soft, but to tell you the truth i dont know if i am wasting my time, although my wife has stated she thinks i have got bigger, its all very slow though and i just want it today!!

I've always wanted to be female but have the wrong equipment and identify as mtf. But here lately I have also begun to question myself concerning where I fit into the gender spectrum. I'm one of those who has tried to get a more androgenous look in order to balance my feelings about how I should look with what others around me think I should look like. I have been somewhat successful at it and I mix feminine and masculine clothing every day-it works for me. I too have had an off & on use of Estrogen and have some breast growth which I love having. When I begin feeling dysphoric I use E again and I am stable again for a long while-again, it works for me.

Yes, I share your concerns and questions. But I am a work in progress and am enjoying the ride!
Randi

Quote from: Kinkly on January 06, 2011, 04:58:08 AM
being androgyne is how you feel inside.  some of us can't live being seen as the gender that our biology claims we are so we work toward looking looking like ourselves. the Androgynous look used by the fashion industry is only one form of androgynous expression.
If neither Male or Female work for you (cis or trans) then you are part of the androgyne forest.

I think this is probably the most succinct description of androgyne I have read yet.

Thanks for that!

It really helps to hear it stated so simply.

Quote from: shelly on January 06, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
Symepathy i dont think wish to have a vagina instead of a penis to be much more unusual than me to have breasts,

Thank you for your understanding.

Quotebut to still remain male a sort of he->-bleeped-<- i guess,

This is quite interesting when you say he->-bleeped-<-. I realize that my personality is a mixture of approximately 60% male and 40% female. I only say this in general because I have no idea what a female thinks inside her head. My observation tells me that 40% of my personality is similar to a woman's personality, but that is only on the surface. I don't know the thinking of a majority of women.

An analogy is water at about 40 degree Celsius. If I only look at the surface without seeing the bottom of the container, I only see still water. There are actually a lot of bubbles at the bottom. When the temperature increases, bubbles will appear on the surface. My female side is like those bubbles. It is suppressed because of my totally masculine body. I feel like my femininity needs to be seen without taking over my masculine side. That's why I want a vagina (not exactly like a female's one, only similar) without taking estrogen hormone.

Because you are in the middle of gender spectrum like I am, I believe you can understand what I'm saying. I hope when I talk to a gender therapist, he/she will be able to accept this. Otherwise, I have to go all the way to become a female, which I don't want.

Quotebut then again if i do mentally feel that i am male and female then ive been right all along that getting breasts is just a way of me becoming complete,

I hope you can get what you are yearning for.

Quotejust annoys me though that if the herbs im playing about with at the moment dont have the desired effect then the only way i could get proper hormones would be to go and see my GP and tell him i think i am TS. Why the heck dont the medical profession recognise andro's.

Perhaps this happens because all gender-related professionals follow Harry Benjamin Standard of Care? I don't know much about the protocol of it, but it was probably created based on male and female only spectrum.

Quote from: symempathy on January 06, 2011, 01:39:10 PM
Perhaps this happens because all gender-related professionals follow Harry Benjamin Standard of Care? I don't know much about the protocol of it, but it was probably created based on male and female only spectrum.

To get some insight on this question, I looked up Susan's Wiki. It contains the Standards of Care verbatim:

QuoteEligibility Criteria
The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and social risks. Three criteria exist.
Age 18 years;
Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
Either:
a documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or
a period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).
In selected circumstances, it can be acceptable to provide hormones to patients who have not fulfilled criterion 3 - for example, to facilitate the provision of monitored therapy using hormones of known quality, as an alternative to black-market or unsupervised hormone use.
....
Can Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience?
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following minimal standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need for cross living or surgery.

As I read it, that means that, after significant counseling (but no real-life experience), hormone therapy can be given to one who has no intension of fully transitioning in order to provide relief of symptoms. I am not a lawyer nor a health care professional, nor do I play one on TV, but I think the English is pretty clear. We do know there are wide variations between therapist, but it should be possible to find one we need not lie to in order to get hormones. Just today, I met with my therapist and we talked about that very possibility.

The Standards of Care, however, do clearly state that genital surgery requires hormone therapy and 12 months real-life experience. So breasts are OK; vagina (without chemistry for better living) is not. Or, at least, that is the way I read it. Check out the Wiki, and see what you think.

S

Quote from: chrishoney on January 06, 2011, 10:14:50 AM
I think this is probably the most succinct description of androgyne I have read yet.

Thanks for that!

It really helps to hear it stated so simply.

Thanks, nice to know that others like my simple understanding.
I've been through a lot of complex stuff in my life I need to see it as simply as possible,  now tell me what does the word succinct mean

succinct means something along the lines of clearly stated with a minimum of words; kind of the opposite of verbiage. I appreciate the complexity and depth of experience it takes to distill such a slippery concept into a few sentences, especially that last one: 

"If neither Male or Female work for you (cis or trans) then you are part of the androgyne forest."

I guess this resonates with me because that is largely how I feel inside: neither male nor female, neither cis nor trans, work exactly right for me. I also like the metaphor of the "androgyne forest" and all the diversity that implies. Having spent quite a few hours reading back through numerous threads and discussions in several of the forums, it strikes me that sometimes sight of the forest is lost while trying to justify/define/explicate each and every possible tree. There are a multitude of trees in any one forest, each one unique unto itself, even though it goes by the same name as others of its kind.

First of all androgyny is a heck of a hard topic to discuss rationally!!!

I really like this forest analogy.  I agree that we can all spend too much time trying to define each and every tree, and even the 'which tree is like my own?' kind of thing.  But it's basic human nature to do so isn't it?  For me the search for identity feels very instinctual/primal or whatever you choose to call it, and therefor is very important! 

People tend to 'solve' 'discover' and 'hypothesize' about everything, and I find gender exploration to be no different.  I in no way agree that gender is simply, 'man', 'woman.'  The problems that seems to arise are just when people tie gender to sex, and I realize that many of us do not tie the two together (we wouldn't be on a trans forum if we did right?), but unfortunately the majority of the world DOES tie the two together.  I don't see how androgyny (as far as gender is concerned) would even exist if culture did not demand it to, but then again neither would gender period!

As a trans-woman that accepts being andro I refer to myself as androgynous, but it's not entirely about identity.  And maybe I do misuse the word, but I feel androgyny can be EITHER appearance or gender related.  I don't feel androgynous, but I do feel I *look* androgynous, and I am comfortable feeling/looking andro, but I can't NOT consider myself female.  When I am meeting new people and telling them about myself the word androgynous comes up quite a bit, even though I consider myself not be an androgyne.

I feel separation of the terms:  Androgynous, Androgyny, and Androgyne are needed to be perfect clear about what it is we are talking about.  For me androgynous can apply to looks, personality, demeanor, etc.,  but not to gender itself.  Such as: I speak androgynous, look androgynous, etc., and therefore you have people that are androgynous men or androgynous women...  Androgyne I believe CAN be a gender though.  Now this is all just personally to me, I'm no way saying it's 'the way it is.'  =) 

To whomever said being Androgyne is about how you feel inside, I totally agree, and my post isn't meant to debate that, but just to show a different perspective from within my own identity.

I'm one of the party that wants to separate the words, 'androgyne' and 'androgynous/androgyny' - the first being an umbrella word for a non-binary gender identity and the second two being a look that can represent an androgyne personality but does not have to.

Once you get yourself into that androgyne forest, that's lots of different lakes to sit by - but ballet pumps do not maketh a woman - and I've always felt that any transition that involves changing your voice is not the most logical step in a quest for the authentic self anyway.

I do feel that there is a moderate female part inside my mind. It doesn't completely take over my male part. Otherwise, I would think about transition to a female inside out. The feminine side in me indeed doesn't want to take over, but it wants to be recognized. Therefore, although it sounds creepy, I want to have a vagina, yet I want to keep the rest of my secondary male sex characteristics. I don't want to look androgynous.
I don't know whether the label androgyne will fit me. If that is how I am identified, so be it. I won't feel offended if people call me a man or a gay person. After all, the male in me still takes charge, and I have no control over it. It's how it is.

However, it won't be okay if I'm called a female. I don't deny the female in me, but that female side prefers to lay low. It wants to be recognized at "a certain level", not all the way. And I also have no control over it.

What I just describe is about my identity. In terms of gender expression, I feel like my female side surfaces a little more. It still doesn't take over my male side, but it blends quite well with the masculine side. I believe people who observe my behavior will think that I'm a soft, feminine, sensitive man. I'm quite sure they won't think I'm effeminate, and neither do I.

I know. This causes me a headache, too.

I'd fairly frequently like to lose my meat -n- two, more for tidiness sake I seem to think of those parts like a too large bunch of keys ruining the line.

I used to feel there were male or female parts but those parts have now merged pretty much to become what I feel I ought to...pretty much. Maybe it's just time, I found out about androgyne thing about three and half years ago and used to think about it a lot.

Quote from: Snoeball on January 09, 2011, 12:48:38 PM
I feel separation of the terms:  Androgynous, Androgyny, and Androgyne are needed to be perfect clear about what it is we are talking about.  For me androgynous can apply to looks, personality, demeanor, etc.,  but not to gender itself. 

I think the terms can be separated through grammar, if nothing else.  Androgyne is a noun.  It's an identity.  I am androgyne.  Androgynous is an adjective to describe things that are, well, androgynous.  One can have an androgynous identity without looking androgynous.  One can also have an androgynous look without identifying as an androgyne person.  Androgynous is just a description. 

Jaimey,

Again, I like/resonate with the simplicity of using these terms grammatically, which also helps me to keep them distinct in my mind. It also seems like this is what Pica Pica is implying in hir "definitions." And yes snoeball, I think it is totally human nature to attempt to define, categorize and map out the world around us, including other people, not just objects and things. Partly, it's an attempt to understand the world, our culture, our millieu and how we fit (or don't) into all that. I personally have a tendency to be overly 'rational' so I have to keep reminding myself (especially around topics and individuals like androgyne and androgynous): 1.) not to mistake the map for the territory, and 2.) that the 'story'/ideas/reasoning I have in my mind is just that, MY story and not anyone else's, even though they may agree with all or part of it.

You folks are awesome--great posts, great thread, great forum! Thanks for taking the time to participate. I only recently 'discovered' this part of Susans and I'm really grateful for everyone's contribution and the ability to kind of go back in time and read previous threads and discussions. It's been a huge help for me on this part of my journey.

Jaimey, yeah I was getting at the grammatical differences, actually thats what I *wanted* to say  =)  Thank you for making it more clear than I was able to.  It's just after thinking about anything androgyne  related my brain starts to tingle and eventually stop working so well LOL... Imagine the whole 'going back in time and meeting yourself thinking', just... "POP" to my brain.  Androgyny has a similar effect if I think about it too hard.  The whole thing just is beyond being able to put into words/thoughts sometimes.  Great thread though!