Understood - thanks for the clarification on this.  Do remember to take care of yourself too.

Quote from: Slanan on January 10, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
Understood - thanks for the clarification on this.  Do remember to take care of yourself too.

Thank you, and I am trying to figure out how to do that.

I just got off the phone with my friend Lizzy. Lizzy is actually the first person Dan came out to, and I was introduced to her through him. However, as I think I have mentioned above and in previous posts, Dan excels at failing to maintain relationships. That said, Lizzy and I have developed a pretty awesome friendship, and it is nice to have someone who knows Dan almost as well as I do to talk things over with. I tried to call Lizzy this morning, but I got her voicemail. I didn't think that leaving a 30 second voicemail of me dry heaving and weeping would be a good idea so I just waited for her to call me back. She eventually did and I let her know what was going on. I told her that I am considering moving to NYC after we have our civil hearing. Lizzy told me that she was going to call me today anyway to ask me to be a bridesmaid in her wedding.

Lizzy also told me that she is coming down on Wednesday, so I will get to see her and her beautiful son, Jack. I am glad she is coming down to see me. I so need a day out with a friend who knows everything that is going on.

Things seem to be at a standstill... I don't have the energy to retype everything that has transpired over the past day and a half, so I am just going to share one of the private messages I sent out.

I am feeling a little better now... Not entirely, but I have spent the majority of the day thinking. I tried to talk to Dan this morning before he left for work, but that wasn't happening. I visited him after work before he had to go to school, and still he wants to push the topics under the rug. I told him I simply can not do that anymore. His way to deal with me wanting to talk is to tell me we will discuss it on Friday (when we have counseling). I just want to scream!

We had plans. He promised me that I would be his wife, that we would raise a family together, and that he would give me all of the love he could possibly give another person. I now know that I will never have a husband from him, I will never hold one of our children in my arms or feel them moving inside of me, and I don't know how small the well of love could be that he is pulling from, but I feel as though it is steadily going dry. My heart aches, but I can't let him go. Perhaps I may be strong, but I'll admit I am decidedly stupid when it comes to certain things.

I asked him what we are working towards, and he couldn't answer me. All he kept saying is, "We're together, and that's all that matters". I am not the type of person that enjoys living in the moment EVERY moment. I like to have plans, goals, and expectations. Right now, I can't even see tomorrow. It's so unbelievably frustrating. I know that he didn't tell me about the issues he had with his GID when we met because he was not coming to terms with it himself, but at the same time, I am just so angry. I am angry that I am at a place where I have to sacrifice the things I aspire to have or to give up the person that I have come to love so very much. I am angry because as much as I am willing to sacrifice, he seems to be unmoved by my pain and frustration. I don't know what to do.

I know that lying is something he has had to do to protect himself from his feelings, from accepting his GID, from disappointing those he loves, but I feel as though he is taking advantage of my love. I told him this morning that in not asking his brother for my presence to be granted (that sounds so stupid) or telling him that I will be accompanying him I feel jipped. I feel minimized. I feel inferior. His brother wouldn't tell the middle brother not to bring his wife over, and though I do not have that title, I am Dan's partner. Most of the interactions that he has had with his family since we have been together is because I have grown to know them and keep in contact with them.

It makes me sick to my stomach to say this, as more than anything I crave to have a family, to have children, but I told Dan earlier that if I were to find out I was pregnant tomorrow I don't know if I could keep the baby... I can't imagine bringing a child into something this screwed up. Right now I don't know which end is up. I am questioning myself, am I making the right decision. Would he do this for me? I honestly do not believe he would.

I have so much flying around in my mind that I doubt I will sleep tonight. I feel as though the anger I have might be the factor that kills this relationship. Anger is poisonous and is in no way beneficial to this surviving, which is why I wish I could figure out how to make it go away.

I do not want our relationship to become acidic. It is paramount to me that we maintain the love that we have so gently fostered over the past year and a half. IF we can't do that, I don't know what I will do.

I am sorry that I am being so negative and pessimistic, I try hard not to, but this situation is just getting the best of me.

I know that there is more to be said, I just can't think in a straight line right now... Thank you for your caring and advice.


I don't want this to sound whiny, I just don't know what to do right now. My heart is heavier than it has been in a long time. Lord knows I love Dan, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck around this long, but I just don't know how much more I can take if he isn't willing to give me the consideration I need and deserve. I feel as though our partnership is falling apart, and he refuses to take any responsibility for it. I need him to see things from my perspective, because I have been trying pretty damn hard to see them from his.

To avoid sounding redundant and voicing the fact that I am angry and frustrated 10 more times I am just going to end this post here. Negative sleep and emotional exhaustion make it somewhat difficult for me to remain focused on keeping the rest of my thoughts sorted and legible.

I hope that you have managed to get some sleep. My only advice is to remember to take a step back and breathe sometimes. I read that you have talked with him but have you told him all of this? Not word for word of course but have you explained to him that if you had a plan, any plan of some sort, that you feel you could handle it better? Your partner from your posts sounds unwilling to talk. I did the same thing. I knew that I was transgender but there was so much of "what comes next, what can I do?" It created pain and anger in my relationship with my ex. I wrote my feelings down day to day and I'll be honest some days it was a page full of words not appropriate for Susans. Maybe this could work for you or him or even both? *hugs* I hope things get better for you both.

Wow Jacquelyn what an ordeal you are going thru. I am sorry that we did not see this post until this morning.

Many, many, big hugs.

Roxy and I are thinking that you are such a great person. We are sorry you are going through this turmoil.

Not wishing to sound unsupportive to the TG community, it does sound like you are a person that deserves better than how you are being treated. (TG issues aside) There are important considerations that are being overlooked in day to day life that are just not fair. We may not always be up to treating others the way we would like to be treated, but Dan does not seem to be meeting the basics. (From our perspective)

Life is not easy sometimes and can often be very painful. We hope you find what you need and that there is a respite from your difficulties. Thank you for sharing.

Roxy is sitting next to me and we wish to give you a group hug!!! (If possible a group akward sway)

Lots of Love and best Wishes.
Roxy & Patty

  A spouse or a significant other that upon learning of their partners ->-bleeped-<- . And doesn't     run screaming down the street in there housecoat and curlers. All the while screaming " Oh My God, Hide Your Children, Hide Your Husbands!!! " " I Can't Believe I Let Him Touch Me!! " While pulling at her hair and ripping her clothes off. Is quite a "catch" in my book. As significant others go , you by far surpass this criteria.  I don't mean to kid at a time like this, but maybe the visualization of this might just bring a tiny smile.

   All kidding aside. I think you know Jaquelyn. Patty and I think you are a very special person. From your first posts it was easy to see that you are a warm, kind and considerate lady. Someone that instead of calling it "quits" after hearing that there SO might be trans, starts to look and find information out about it. Even joins Susan's to try to gain an understanding . All I can say about that is, "you are simply amazing." I wish everyone had a SO half as considerate as you.

  I realize Dan has other issues he has to address as well as the monumental task of understanding his transgender feelings. I know how it is, to be afraid to tell the ones you love about your feeling, for fear they will leave. But I can see by your posts, that if Dan is not going to be honest with himself as well as being honest with you. He is going to lose one of the best things he's got going for himself, (you). I wish he realized this, that ladies like you just don't fall out of trees. They are few and far between.

  You have already done an amazing job at keeping your relationship together. It is obvious that it is important to you. I wish I could say something to you or give you some advice. It looks like to me you   are doing the best that you can. I think that it is Dan that needs the advice and it seems it will be him that ultimately decides the outcome of this relationship. 

   All I can give you now is a warm supportive hug and the hopes that an apple falls from a tree and hits Dan squarely on the top of the head.

   Hugs (awkward sway) Roxy

Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 12, 2011, 08:02:35 AM
I hope that you have managed to get some sleep. My only advice is to remember to take a step back and breathe sometimes. I read that you have talked with him but have you told him all of this? Not word for word of course but have you explained to him that if you had a plan, any plan of some sort, that you feel you could handle it better? Your partner from your posts sounds unwilling to talk. I did the same thing. I knew that I was transgender but there was so much of "what comes next, what can I do?" It created pain and anger in my relationship with my ex. I wrote my feelings down day to day and I'll be honest some days it was a page full of words not appropriate for Susans. Maybe this could work for you or him or even both? *hugs* I hope things get better for you both.

Thank you Andrew. I did fall asleep around 6am, and woke up at 7:38am to Dan still asleep when he usually leaves for work by 7:30 (on a day when he doesn't have to dig his car out of a snow drift!). I woke him up and we cuddled for a bit, he still wouldn't talk, but this morning I didn't try to force him to, and then he left for work.

I have virtually exhausted myself of explanation to him. I like to believe that I am usually pretty effective at conveying my feelings and thoughts. He is just like talking to a brick wall. I just hate it. I hate that I am more than willing to consider revamping my entire life to keep him as a central part of it, but he can't be considerate enough to talk to me.

As far as him keeping a journal or something I know that he joined a support forum (Lauras) but he hasn't been too active there. I keep encouraging him to do so, but he doesn't feel compelled to take that step as much as I have here. I have told him how much joining this site has helped me, but alas, he doesn't get into it.

Quote from: Mrs Erocse on January 12, 2011, 09:07:03 AM
Wow Jacquelyn what an ordeal you are going thru. I am sorry that we did not see this post until this morning.

Many, many, big hugs.

Roxy and I are thinking that you are such a great person. We are sorry you are going through this turmoil.

Not wishing to sound unsupportive to the TG community, it does sound like you are a person that deserves better than how you are being treated. (TG issues aside) There are important considerations that are being overlooked in day to day life that are just not fair. We may not always be up to treating others the way we would like to be treated, but Dan does not seem to be meeting the basics. (From our perspective)

Life is not easy sometimes and can often be very painful. We hope you find what you need and that there is a respite from your difficulties. Thank you for sharing.

Roxy is sitting next to me and we wish to give you a group hug!!! (If possible a group akward sway)

Lots of Love and best Wishes.
Roxy & Patty

Quote from: Erocse on January 12, 2011, 12:36:55 PM
  A spouse or a significant other that upon learning of their partners ->-bleeped-<- . And doesn't     run screaming down the street in there housecoat and curlers. All the while screaming " Oh My God, Hide Your Children, Hide Your Husbands!!! " " I Can't Believe I Let Him Touch Me!! " While pulling at her hair and ripping her clothes off. Is quite a "catch" in my book. As significant others go , you by far surpass this criteria.  I don't mean to kid at a time like this, but maybe the visualization of this might just bring a tiny smile.

   All kidding aside. I think you know Jaquelyn. Patty and I think you are a very special person. From your first posts it was easy to see that you are a warm, kind and considerate lady. Someone that instead of calling it "quits" after hearing that there SO might be trans, starts to look and find information out about it. Even joins Susan's to try to gain an understanding . All I can say about that is, "you are simply amazing." I wish everyone had a SO half as considerate as you.

  I realize Dan has other issues he has to address as well as the monumental task of understanding his transgender feelings. I know how it is, to be afraid to tell the ones you love about your feeling, for fear they will leave. But I can see by your posts, that if Dan is not going to be honest with himself as well as being honest with you. He is going to lose one of the best things he's got going for himself, (you). I wish he realized this, that ladies like you just don't fall out of trees. They are few and far between.

  You have already done an amazing job at keeping your relationship together. It is obvious that it is important to you. I wish I could say something to you or give you some advice. It looks like to me you   are doing the best that you can. I think that it is Dan that needs the advice and it seems it will be him that ultimately decides the outcome of this relationship. 

   All I can give you now is a warm supportive hug and the hopes that an apple falls from a tree and hits Dan squarely on the top of the head.

   Hugs (awkward sway) Roxy

Roxy and Patty- I think I may have mentioned it before, but I do not believe that Dan's TG would be what ends us. I think if anything, it may expedite the process, not because I am disgusted by him, or because I think he is a terrible person, but because no matter how much I am there for him I do not feel as though I am getting my fair share back. Reading your posts (more specifically Patty's...) I am both happy and sad. I am happy because I see that two people can make it work, but I am deeply saddened because I do not feel that Dan is willing to make it work.

I think that this will all come out again in the therapy session on Friday. Hopefully Dan will feel compelled to listen to me there. I also talked to his friend Lizzy again today, and after I get my finances sorted out I think I am going to head up to NYC for a week or two to stay with her. I can't keep making an effort when I am getting no support from him. I feel so uncertain, but at the same time I feel like we are getting closer to the end.

I don't know if I should continue trying or just throw in the towel... 

At this point I think he may just be feeling pressure from you to make a decision since so much of your future is bound up in what he does. Guys have this nasty habit of getting even more reserved and non-responsive if pushed. Hopefully he can open up in your session on Friday and help move things along. Otherwise I don't think you would be unjustified to leave. A trip to NYC might be a good test. Personally, once you are gone, I think he might realize what colossal mistake he made in pushing you away.

On another topic, you mentioned that one of the things you would be giving up is kids with Dan. This doesn't have to be true if you freeze and store Dan's sperm before he starts HRT. Dr. Christine McGinn, a surgeon and MTF herself, was recently on Oprah because she had done this very thing. With her partner.

Quote from: Melody on January 12, 2011, 08:26:34 PM
At this point I think he may just be feeling pressure from you to make a decision since so much of your future is bound up in what he does. Guys have this nasty habit of getting even more reserved and non-responsive if pushed. Hopefully he can open up in your session on Friday and help move things along. Otherwise I don't think you would be unjustified to leave. A trip to NYC might be a good test. Personally, once you are gone, I think he might realize what colossal mistake he made in pushing you away.

On another topic, you mentioned that one of the things you would be giving up is kids with Dan. This doesn't have to be true if you freeze and store Dan's sperm before he starts HRT. Dr. Christine McGinn, a surgeon and MTF herself, was recently on Oprah because she had done this very thing. With her partner.

I don't necessarily need anything in concrete, I would just like a push in some direction or another. I can't adjust to uncertainty. 

The trip to NYC is something that I think we need, I need. My friends that we live with agree, I am not going to pay rent for the time I am up there, and they want me to take that breather too. They both know that Dan has been struggling with his GID and are supportive so long as Dan doesn't treat me poorly.

As far as freezing sperm, we simply can't afford it. Right now all of the costs of transitioning are on him. I don't know how or when he will be able to afford that (I couldn't help now even if I wanted to seeing as I am not working) seeing as he struggles to see a therapist twice a month for $70 a session.

I did see that episode of Oprah though. I found it online.

70$ a session is a deal. I pay my psyrink $125 a session and that is the lowest on her sliding scale.

Dan sounds like he is dealing with T poisoning. He is constantly surley, biter and acerbic.... Yes? No?
Get him on a T blocker and see how he acts.
just a thought

Things sound like they are not going well. It is comendable that you wish to be with him but I fear you are loosing sight of what is most important right now....You.
I know it is not something that you want to dwell on but you need to start to figure out what you will do in the event you and Dan seperate.

It would be a shame with all you have put in for the relationship to disolve. I am rooting for you but please have a plan B.

Hello Jacquelyn,
You welcomed me when I posted my introduction today. Thank you so much! I have just read through the whole thread of your struggles with Dan right now. I empathize. We have had years of struggle ourselves and only this year are finally celebrating one year without a major fight! A few  things come to my mind that might be helpful to you.

First, your desire to have children is so understandable to me. It was incredibly strong in me; my only real life goal though I have ended up doing other interesting things as well. So, to that end, you must keep in mind that if you do end up staying with Dan, you simply have to prioritize banking sperm. There is no reason to bank it if he is not going to transition. And of course at this point, you do not know. But you can keep in mind that it is one of the many "things to do" that accompany the process of transition. You might need to save the money yourself to pay for it. If it is a priority, you can make it happen.

Secondly, I would encourage you to do some spiritual work on your own state of mind. You say you don't like to always stay in the present. Well, I would say that not only is it uncomfortable to always "be present," it is not even possible. The work of meditation is a study in the PRACTICE of staying present; I want to emphasize the word "practice" because it takes practice to meditate. It takes practice to be in the moment. Just as one gets better on a musical instrument with practice, one gets better at being in the moment with practice. Learning to be in the moment with full attention, allows one to become more compassionate with one's self and with others. I am not saying that you are not compassionate. You are obviously a very caring person. All I am saying, is that you might learn to be more comfortable with uncertainty. Life is full of it. Even with someone who loves to dream and plan, uncertainty hangs over all of that. I would go so far as to recommend a book to you by a funny, charming western Buddhist woman named Pema Chodron called "Comfortable with Uncertainty". Although her background is Buddhist, she is basically a philosopher (as is Buddhism in general a philosophy). She gently provides stories that encourage the reader to open and accept, and basically learn to be happier with what is.

Another point that comes to mind is also related to a book I am currently reading called "What Could He Be Thinking" by Michael Gurian. The author refers to studies that examine the male and female brain; how they are constructed and how they are affected by hormones. He very clearly makes a case to show that males are actually WIRED to be less communicative than females. Females have a much larger capacity for language and for emotions. Guys are more wired to orient toward getting things done. These sound like stereotypes but when you look at the neurons and the chemistry, it begins to add up.Your partner may be stuck in the middle right now. He's wired to be non-communicative but he isn't happy being success driven either because he is trans. He might have trouble talking about the whole baby thing because, as many transwomen express, he wishes HE could have the baby. But that would be a pretty advanced understanding of himself, so at this point, that would probably be subconscious.

I liked the suggestion from cynthialee about starting with a T blocker to see if that helps him emotionally. See what the therapist says, and Dan of course. And one more thing I noticed about your life is that Dan sounds REALLY busy, working full time and going to school.  That's a lot of stress. I'm sure you cut him plenty of slack, and it sounds like he deserves it. And for you to take a break and visit your friend, good plan. Maybe you can get some reading done on the train. 

Hugs to you, sweetheart. Hang in there.
Ruby

Quote from: cynthialee on January 12, 2011, 08:48:35 PM
70$ a session is a deal. I pay my psyrink $125 a session and that is the lowest on her sliding scale.

Dan sounds like he is dealing with T poisoning. He is constantly surley, biter and acerbic.... Yes? No?
Get him on a T blocker and see how he acts.
just a thought

Things sound like they are not going well. It is comendable that you wish to be with him but I fear you are loosing sight of what is most important right now....You.
I know it is not something that you want to dwell on but you need to start to figure out what you will do in the event you and Dan seperate.

It would be a shame with all you have put in for the relationship to disolve. I am rooting for you but please have a plan B.

Thank you, Cythialee. Dan is usually quite kind, he's always been pretty quiet- it's just that right now I feel like we most definitely need to focus on keeping the communication going. I am trying to keep sight of what I need and what I want, but Dan is so woven into those thoughts and feelings that it is making it very difficult to sort through them.

We have the therapy appointment tomorrow, thank god. There is so much that I feel we need to address that I hardly know where to start. I got approved for unemployment, so I should be able to take my escape to New York soon. I think I might just wait until the Monday after my birthday (the 29th) and head up to Lizzy's before the hearing we have down here.

Quote from: rubywendt on January 12, 2011, 09:41:17 PM
Hello Jacquelyn,
You welcomed me when I posted my introduction today. Thank you so much! I have just read through the whole thread of your struggles with Dan right now. I empathize. We have had years of struggle ourselves and only this year are finally celebrating one year without a major fight! A few  things come to my mind that might be helpful to you.

First, your desire to have children is so understandable to me. It was incredibly strong in me; my only real life goal though I have ended up doing other interesting things as well. So, to that end, you must keep in mind that if you do end up staying with Dan, you simply have to prioritize banking sperm. There is no reason to bank it if he is not going to transition. And of course at this point, you do not know. But you can keep in mind that it is one of the many "things to do" that accompany the process of transition. You might need to save the money yourself to pay for it. If it is a priority, you can make it happen.

Secondly, I would encourage you to do some spiritual work on your own state of mind. You say you don't like to always stay in the present. Well, I would say that not only is it uncomfortable to always "be present," it is not even possible. The work of meditation is a study in the PRACTICE of staying present; I want to emphasize the word "practice" because it takes practice to meditate. It takes practice to be in the moment. Just as one gets better on a musical instrument with practice, one gets better at being in the moment with practice. Learning to be in the moment with full attention, allows one to become more compassionate with one's self and with others. I am not saying that you are not compassionate. You are obviously a very caring person. All I am saying, is that you might learn to be more comfortable with uncertainty. Life is full of it. Even with someone who loves to dream and plan, uncertainty hangs over all of that. I would go so far as to recommend a book to you by a funny, charming western Buddhist woman named Pema Chodron called "Comfortable with Uncertainty". Although her background is Buddhist, she is basically a philosopher (as is Buddhism in general a philosophy). She gently provides stories that encourage the reader to open and accept, and basically learn to be happier with what is.

Another point that comes to mind is also related to a book I am currently reading called "What Could He Be Thinking" by Michael Gurian. The author refers to studies that examine the male and female brain; how they are constructed and how they are affected by hormones. He very clearly makes a case to show that males are actually WIRED to be less communicative than females. Females have a much larger capacity for language and for emotions. Guys are more wired to orient toward getting things done. These sound like stereotypes but when you look at the neurons and the chemistry, it begins to add up.Your partner may be stuck in the middle right now. He's wired to be non-communicative but he isn't happy being success driven either because he is trans. He might have trouble talking about the whole baby thing because, as many transwomen express, he wishes HE could have the baby. But that would be a pretty advanced understanding of himself, so at this point, that would probably be subconscious.

I liked the suggestion from cynthialee about starting with a T blocker to see if that helps him emotionally. See what the therapist says, and Dan of course. And one more thing I noticed about your life is that Dan sounds REALLY busy, working full time and going to school.  That's a lot of stress. I'm sure you cut him plenty of slack, and it sounds like he deserves it. And for you to take a break and visit your friend, good plan. Maybe you can get some reading done on the train. 

Hugs to you, sweetheart. Hang in there.
Ruby

Ruby-

Thank you so much for your kind words. Congratulations to you and Chelsea for making things work out so well. I have reread your response a few times, and to be honest I am not exactly sure how to answer it. The biggest thing that hit me was the paragraph about having children. I am trying very hard to accept all of the changes that his potential transitioning would have on our relationship in the long run. Right now Dan knows, and accepts, that I am not now or in the foreseeable future, going to assist him monetarily with transitioning. I have offered to pay for all or part of our therapy, but that is all. I know that probably sounds harsh, but knowing Dan as well as I do I have my reasons.

Firstly, Dan is terrible (understatement) with money. I tend to be better with finances, and have offered to assist him with his, but he is very stubborn. It is rare that he will save the money he needs for anything, and I do assist him sometimes. That said, if transitioning is something that he does need to do, if it is something that is important to him, then he will have to find the means to pay for it himself.

Secondly, Dan doesn't usually follow through with things. Big things, small things, anything. If I were to put money into his transition along with the exhausting emotional support and he were to decide to stop a bit down the line I would be absolutely furious. Dan tends to jump headfirst into things without considering the consequences first. I don't want to sound nonsupportive or mean, but so far transition seems to be no different. He kicks into high gear over things and swears up, down, and sideways that this must be the answer because right now it seems so right, and a few months later (if that) he is let down or apathetic. Instant gratification is his mantra.

Thirdly, as it stands now, and I know that some other MTF couples experience this, I don't want to compete for the role of mother. If Dan does decide to transition and we do manage to stay together I don't believe that I would want to have children. I have no problem with same sex couples raising children, and I have mentioned this before, but I want my children to grow up with a mother and a father. That is something I did not have. Now, because I know how hypocritical those two statements sound after each other, I am very close to my Mum-Mum (my paternal great-aunt) who happens to be a lesbian. She is more or less my grandmother on my fathers side of the family. She raised my father (and while he is a complete jackass and loser, he was always a headcase) and has always been the one to guide myself and my sisters in the right direction, along with her partner, Joy. I think that they have a great dichotomy, and I would change nothing about the way that they helped to raise us. However, as I said, I desire a home with a mother and a father for my children (silly thing a messed up childhood will do to you) and that is something I am unwilling to be flexible about. If I can't have that, then I simply won't have children.

Thank you for the book recommendations as well. If I get to the bookstore anytime soon I will look into those. I did have some neuropsych in school that discussed the differences in male and female brain constructs, and I find it fascinating.

Overall, I am a planner. Always have been, always will be. I do enjoy spontaneity, don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those people that plans things to the second either, I just like to set goals for myself. With our hectic (though mine is reasonably slower with the unemployment...) and often seldom coinciding schedules the only way certain things get done is when I make the plans. That is part of the reason that I am planning to disappear to NYC for a week or two. I think that Dan takes that for granted. I do tend to stick to certain schedules (shopping, laundry, etc.) because I don't get any help with the domestic things.

I told him last night that I was planning to leave for NYC and that while I am gone I am going to take our puppy to my sisters. With his schedule he can't take care of him and though we live with two other people, Bear is not their responsibility. When I told him this he got pretty upset. He realized that he will be sleeping alone. Without me. Without our pup. While I don't enjoy sleeping away from him, it's something that I think we both need very much. I was surprised that he got so visibly upset, he started to tear up. We actually talked a little bit. He doesn't want me to go to NYC because he doesn't think I will come back. As much as I hate to say it, I can't say with 100% certainty that he is wrong. I don't plan to go there and go crazy. The idea of staying in the city for a few weeks, working at Lizzy's old restaurant while I am up there, walking the city until I am exhausted, and just spending some quiet time with my friends sounds so good to me right now. I just want to forget everything  for now.

The insomnia, the crying, the emotional exhaustion is just so much right now that all I want is to be so tired that my mind simply will not function. I want to be so busy that I don't dwell on this for a while. I want to push everything away for a few days and just not worry. This alone will be a task for me, and I happily look forward to it.

Though I am nervous, the past few days have utterly confirmed for me that I need this. I am so worn out, and I have had more than a few panic attacks this week. Today I had two really bad ones, and it is always the stupidest thing that triggers them. My sister and my friend convinced me to come out and see Black Swan with them at the local theatre. I went to the mall to meet them and they were both running late so I started to walk around to kill time. Silly me, I went into the Hallmark store to buy a card for my other sisters birthday this week. Of course, it's January so EVERYWHERE that you look in Hallmark there are Valentine's Day memorabilia. I am a sap, I started to tear up. Thankfully there weren't many people there. I could feel my chest tightening up, and my eye caught a card that said: "To my future husband..." Just two and a half weeks ago Dan gave me a Christmas card that read: "To my wife..." and he had added in 'future' to that. That is immediately where my mind went and I lost it. I found my way out of the store and to the closest rest room to clean my face off and compose myself. I hate when things like that happen, and this week that is all I have been able to count on.

I am just so tired. I am torn for tomorrow. I can't decide whether I am more nervous or prepared for the therapy appointment. I keep reminding myself to breathe and I am trying hard to stay calm.



Thank you again for your kind responses. I will give you an update tomorrow after the appointment.

Hugs,

Jacquelyn

Jacquelyn -

My heart goes out to you. You're in a really difficult place and I wish i could tell you how to fix it but I can't.

What I can tell you is that you're a wonderful, loving, caring person and I worry about you.

I spent years of my marriage in the same kind of emotional roller coaster, though it wasn't about gender. It left me drained and resentful and it took me a long time to move past it. I'm not sure how I made it through. I did learn a few things from my mistakes that I hope can help you.

Take care of yourself first! Sacrificing your mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health for another person isn't showing them love. Do whatever those things are that nourish you. You'll be better able to love and help that person in what ever way you need to. Getting away from that person for awhile isn't abandoning them it's taking care of yourself and it will probably do you both some good. I sounds like this trip to NY might be one thing you need.

It sounds like your already doing it but lean of other people. Other people love you and you need their love and support to deal with these tough times.

I wish I could think of more but the lack of sleep is catching up with me.

Please be kind to yourself you deserve it!

Quote from: Tamaki on January 15, 2011, 12:08:52 AM
Jacquelyn -

My heart goes out to you. You're in a really difficult place and I wish i could tell you how to fix it but I can't.

What I can tell you is that you're a wonderful, loving, caring person and I worry about you.

I spent years of my marriage in the same kind of emotional roller coaster, though it wasn't about gender. It left me drained and resentful and it took me a long time to move past it. I'm not sure how I made it through. I did learn a few things from my mistakes that I hope can help you.

Take care of yourself first! Sacrificing your mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health for another person isn't showing them love. Do whatever those things are that nourish you. You'll be better able to love and help that person in what ever way you need to. Getting away from that person for awhile isn't abandoning them it's taking care of yourself and it will probably do you both some good. I sounds like this trip to NY might be one thing you need.

It sounds like your already doing it but lean of other people. Other people love you and you need their love and support to deal with these tough times.

I wish I could think of more but the lack of sleep is catching up with me.

Please be kind to yourself you deserve it!

Thank you, Tamaki. As your lack of sleep is catching up to you so is my physical and emotional exhaustion... I am going to take my trip to NY as soon as possible, because I do need to get out of here for a bit. As one of the amazing friends I met here has asked me, does Dan realize what he is potentially giving up to transition? Not just me if things keep going the way they are, but things he may take for granted. He doesn't much like to be scrutinized, and he hates attention. I try not to worry about these things, because I really have no say in what he chooses to do with his life, but I do worry. I love him, but I know I can't live happily worrying about things because I know that he doesn't weigh the consequences of any action.

Sorry, that got a bit off topic, I am just a bit frazzled still. Hopefully, what I think I was getting at, Dan will take some time to consider a host of things during my leave of absence. If I come home and he tells me that he is 110% certain that HRT is the way to go for him right now and he has considered, and is willing and able to accept dedicating his life to that part of him, than I will willingly step aside and say no more. Will that happen? Who knows, we shall find out soon enough.

As for today, we had our therapy appointment. It went alright I guess. Alexis started off with asking us how things have been. I looked over at Dan, and said, "Well...", he in turn looked down at the floor and said nothing, eventually he muttered something along the lines of, "Fine". With that I turned to Alexis and told her that there was no reason for us to be here if he was going to lie, and that this week has been an absolute mess. She then started to ask Dan about why this week had been particularly bad, why I was upset, and pretty much what had gone down. He explained to her that he had broken up with me on Sunday, and that he had said he wanted to start HRT. From there Alexis asked me how I felt about that, and why I was so upset. I explained to her that Dan has pretty much refused to talk to me about anything all week, and that he is pretty much a closed book all the time. She asked me how that makes me feel, how, Dan's GID aside, I feel when Dan is nonresponsive to my need to communicate. I told her honestly that it hurts, that I hate it, and that if we don't break through this barrier to communicate that I can't promise that I will stay.

She asked Dan to tell her what I felt, and why he didn't take the time to do the things I ask him to do when it comes to communication. She asked him if he loved me, he said yes. She asked him if he wanted to keep me in his life forever, and he said yes. She then asked him why he doesn't treat me that way since typically we do more and are more interested in the welfare of those we love. He gave his typical response of, "I don't know".

Alexis continued to ask him some questions along those same lines, and then she asked him what he is passionate about; she asked him what makes him happy and why. He sat there quietly and thought for a good 5 minutes, and then looked at her and blankly said, "I don't know". She had given him a depression questionnaire on his second or third visit, and asked me to answer the same questions for him on my first visit with her. She went back to the responses and said that though Dan doesn't exhibit all of the characteristics of someone who is depressed that talking with him, hearing the lack of enthusiasm for anything that he has, she believes that he is suffering from depression. She asked Dan and myself is that would be a long shot, and living with people who have been diagnosed with clinical depression, I had to tell her it wasn't. He also agreed that she was probably on the right trail.

Tomorrow I am going to call our family doctor and see if I can set up an appointment with her to discuss what has been going on in therapy, and to get Dan a script for an antidepressant. Alexis said that if our Doctor needs to talk to her and discuss her decision she is more than happy to do that.

During the appointment, Dan also told Alexis that he wants to have a family before he transitions. When he got home last night he came into our bedroom and gave me a hug. He just held me for a few minutes and then he told me that he had been thinking all day at work, and he had concluded that he wants to have a family, he wants to get married. He apologized for being so short with me the past few days and told me that he was miserable seeing me so upset, and that it makes him happy when I am happy... I don't know what to think. I am not willing to forget everything that he said, and I am not willing to be hurt again when decides to tell me that he no longer feels that way. I told Alexis this as well, and she nodded and said that hopefully after Dan's body gets acclimated to the antidepressants he will be able to think more stably. I too hope that this is the case.

I am still going to go to NYC, I still think that we could desperately use this time to think and breathe. Hopefully we will see some progress before that...

Also, when we got home we were talking about the session and he said he thinks he may join here. He isn't sure when, but he thinks (and I agree) that it would be a good way for him to get support.

Tomorrow we are heading out to the middle of PA to visit his Dad and Aunt. We'll be spending the night at his Dad's house and then coming home sometime Sunday. I enjoy going out there to visit, they are probably the two people (minus his ridiculously adorable 2 year old nephew) that I am most comfortable around in his family.

I was hoping that after this session my mind would be a little quieter, but it isn't really. I am still anxious and sleep just doesn't look like it is in the cards again tonight... Meh, I just keep reminding myself to breathe...



Hugs,

Jacquelyn

Jackie,

I think you should take this opportunity to break up.  I looked for your post where you said that you couldn't be in a long-term relationship with a woman, because you definitely wanted children and didn't want kids with another woman.  I think that Dan must have either absolutely heard this from you, or sensed it subconsciously or unconsciously, and that's why he's pulling away from you.  Maybe he really wants kids and knows that if he follows his heart that he can't do this with you.  Otherwise, he'd have to be trapped in a body he hates to please you. Why waste your time with him knowing your desires unless you want him to change his mind about this?

I think if you really feel this way about children, you should just make a clean break and save Dan and yourself heartbreak. He could find someone who can accept his plans to transition 100%.  Your feelings regarding kids and having a mother and a father may impede his progress towards being his true self and being as happy as he could be.  You two are so young, the chances of you being together for the long term are small anyway.  It always hurts, but in a few years, it won't so much unless you find that you can't find a relationship that is better (which actually happens often enough).  I've seen people who break a relationship for a trivial reason and then 40 years later, they wish they hadn't.  I hope you don't become one of these people.  Blood is NOT thicker than water -- LOVE is thicker than blood.  And if you don't get this, I'm talking about children -- you don't need to birth them for them to be your kids.

Basically, as it stands -- your relationship is conditional.  Once that becomes apparent, you should end it.  Especially, at your age.

I guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be.  I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!).  Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.

You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!! 

NIMBY, sadly, strikes YET again!

Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 10:02:57 AM
Jackie,

I think you should take this opportunity to break up.  I looked for your post where you said that you couldn't be in a long-term relationship with a woman, because you definitely wanted children and didn't want kids with another woman.  I think that Dan must have either absolutely heard this from you, or sensed it subconsciously or unconsciously, and that's why he's pulling away from you.  Maybe he really wants kids and knows that if he follows his heart that he can't do this with you.  Otherwise, he'd have to be trapped in a body he hates to please you. Why waste your time with him knowing your desires unless you want him to change his mind about this?

I think if you really feel this way about children, you should just make a clean break and save Dan and yourself heartbreak. He could find someone who can accept his plans to transition 100%.  Your feelings regarding kids and having a mother and a father may impede his progress towards being his true self and being as happy as he could be.  You two are so young, the chances of you being together for the long term are small anyway.  It always hurts, but in a few years, it won't so much unless you find that you can't find a relationship that is better (which actually happens often enough).  I've seen people who break a relationship for a trivial reason and then 40 years later, they wish they hadn't.  I hope you don't become one of these people.  Blood is NOT thicker than water -- LOVE is thicker than blood.  And if you don't get this, I'm talking about children -- you don't need to birth them for them to be your kids.

I guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be.  I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!).  Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.

You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!!  Disguised homophobia is what I see.

Sonopoly,

First , I thank you for taking your time to send me a reply. However, there are a few things in your reply that a) bother me and b) couldn't be further from the truth. First, as I have said before children are something that I want, yes. Marriage is something that I want, yes. Losing Dan is the furthest thing from what I want. As it stands if he transitions I would tentatively be giving up both of those things. Can I say with absolute certainty that I can go one way or the other? No. I don't plan to make an rash judgments whether it's to stay or go based on my perceived emotions. As we both firmly believe in partnership we have agreed to go to counseling and sort through the things that we absolutely need to be happy as a couple and as individuals.

Second, if you had read my previous posts in their entirety you would see that Dan and I had previously discussed the option of adoption. His parents were married for 10 years before they conceived their first child and were told by numerous Doctors that they were infertile. That said, I am not thick, I do understand the concept that love is thicker than blood, and would thus love a child I had adopted no less than a child I had given birth to. However, I feel a little slighted to have that option robbed of me, which I do not believe makes me a bad person nor do I think that those feelings are limited to me as an SO. Is that something that I may have to come to terms with? Yes.

On that same note, had you taken the time to read my previous posts, which thankfully has been done by all of the other posters, you would see that I am quite supportive of families that digress from the nuclear ideal. However, having a pretty messed up childhood to say the least and missing a consistent father figure in my home I would much like for my children to have one. Were GID never something that I had stumbled across I would still want my children to have a mother and a father. I would still want this dichotomy present. And yes, I am one of those awful people that don't really believe in divorce. How archaic, right?

Finally, the part that really got under my skin from your post:

QuoteI guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be.  I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!).  Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.

You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!!  Disguised homophobia is what I see.

I have never been called a homophobe. I do not appreciate that because it is literally the furthest thing from my person. I never declared my agenda on same sex marriage, and in fact said that my Aunt and her partner have had a loving partnership and union for about 10 years. If two people love each other I don't care if they want to paint their bodies blue and dance under the night sky naked. It is simply their prerogative. That said, gender does matter and it would be a ridiculous connotation to think otherwise. Many others here at Susan's, whether they be a cis male, female, MTF, or FTM, they all have said that physical gender does play some part in their search for companionship. As a person we have certain things that we look for in a mate, certain qualities that we find attractive or appealing. Do I think that we have any control over those attractions? To be honest, no. However, as a male it doesn't make you a terrible person if you are strictly attracted to females, and vice versa. Do I find myself more geared towards men, yes. Might that change if Dan transitions? I don't know, unfortunately I can't forsee the future.


Please take a second to think over what you have said. Before you accuse people of being homophobic or trying to plant agendas that may be brewing in your mind into my threads, I would appreciate if you would take the time to read and consider all of the related posts, as I am sure others would as well.

I don't mean to sound bitter, and I don't mean to sound cruel; however, your post comes off as mildly accusatory, and far from the mark. Though part of it seems to be a faux attempt at benevolence, there was not much that I found helpful about your reply. If I am the only one, than shame on me, but overall I found most of the things that you had to say irritating to say the least.


Thank you again for your time,

Jacquelyn

Jackie,

Gosh, I really think you are a doll (a sweet darling of a person).  I don't know, but as I have read, he broke up with you and seems to be pushing you away.  You are going away to NYC -- why?  Because he wants you to stay?  I thought he seemed to want you to go away.  I guess I'm not getting a lot here.  So, does he want you to stay and is welcoming your support?  If so, why are you in such distress about him pushing you away.  Please inform me.  I'm a dummy as you can tell, so spell it out for me.

okay, so you say you don't want children with him if he becomes a woman, so what does that mean for you?  You never addressed this in your last post.  please address it.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 10:02:57 AM

NIMBY, sadly, strikes YET again!

Again, uncalled for. What are you gaining from this?

Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 11:12:31 AM
Jackie,

Gosh, I really think you are a doll (a sweet darling of a person).  I don't know, but as I have read, he broke up with you and seems to be pushing you away.  You are going away to NYC -- why?  Because he wants you to stay?  I thought he seemed to want you to go away.  I guess I'm not getting a lot here.  So, does he want you to stay and is welcoming your support?  If so, why are you in such distress about him pushing you away.  Please inform me.  I'm a dummy as you can tell, so spell it out for me.

I am not sure if you have a SO, but things aren't always easy whether or not one or both of the people involved in the relationship happen to be trans. Instead of offering an intelligent reply you decide to make one aimed to be hurtful. It's really childish, and again completely unappreciated.

Unlike you, who it seems would simply walk away when things get tough, I am trying to stick it out and make it work.

I've had an SO for 19 years now and had a previous boyfriend die suddenly at 25.  My BF was a tour musician and a heroin addict and I'd probably be with him today if he didn't overdose.  I put up with more than you can ever imagine which is why I don't understand you.  Your situation is a piece of cake if you really love him.

Okay, Jackie, I wasn't trying to be cruel to you, but when I heard you say that you wouldn't be with him if he became a woman because you want children and think that a child should have a woman for a mother and a man for a father, that REALLY pissed me the F*** Off.  That's all I was trying to get across, okay???

NIMBY means NOT in my backyard, which I saw that you accepted your aunt, but, you know, as long is it's NOT IN MY BACKYARD!!! It just reminded me of "some of my best friends are gay!!!!"

Jackie, if you respond or anyone else does, I just want to know why it is okay for a person to feel that they don't want to have children with someone of the same sex.  Okay, it is okay, I guess, but is it really?  Of course it is. You can feel how you want to.  It is everyone's right.  I just don't think that much of people who feel that way, though I accept that people do feel that way, I just wouldn't want to be associated with them.  Maybe Dan feels the same way I do.  From your posts, IT IS he who is rejecting you, am I right? Which is why I added the NIMBY thing -- Yeah, I think it's okay, but not for me and my children.  Please explain this to me.  I know I might be attacked for my posts, but I want to get some intelligent and informed opinions as to why I'm getting attacked.

I guess what doesn't really ring true about your love for him is that you are going through all this (and he is going through this tenfold) and you are already thinking about children when it's not even close to being in the equation at this point.  He is going through SERIOUS issues RIGHT NOW.  You need to address them if you really care about him.  I don't get why you're talking about children at this point for Christ sake.  There is so much going on in him and you are already thinking about things that are way in the future.  I mean, when I fell in love I really thought in the moment or just the very near future.  Maybe that's just me, but I think he is really going through the most major confusion in his life and you are worried about things that are really so far in the future that I question your feelings for him.  He needs your help and support for crucial things that are going on now for him -- perhaps life or death things and you're wondering about children.  Just strange to me.

I know I am being harsh to you, Jackie, but I think you are being harsh to Dan (as is everybody else in his life).  You probably have many more supporters than he does.  I am not just supporting the minority or the underdog, I am going by my gut feeling.