I put this in the SO section because Sono thought this would help cisgender people gain a better understanding of what dypshoria is.  If the mods feel this thread is better served elsewhere, feel free to move it.  I request that this thread be stickied if the mods find no objection to it, as Sono believes that this information is extremely valuable to cisgendered people.

DISCLAIMER
The following is an edited discussion between myself and someone else.  In it I explain both my thoughts and feelings over my own dysphoria.  As such, these messages are much less reserved than what I would normally post in a public forum.  I do not mean to try to make any generalizations, nor am I trying to speak for all males/females cis or trans, nor do I mean to suggest that everyone experiences dysphoria in the same way.  If it sounds like I am making any such statements, I apologize in advance.  I did not originally write these messages to be posted publicly.  If anyone takes offense to anything contained in these messages, I am willing to debate the issue in a reasonable way as long as the thread stays on topic.

QuoteI don't know if I could go through transition, but I don't have dysphoria, so I don't know what I'd be willing to go through.  I do know it's got to take a lot courage and strength.

For me it takes desperation more than strength.  I don't know how anyone could have enough "strength" to transition.  Courage, I can maybe see something happening with courage.  But to me, transition has less to do with courage, and more to do with survival.  Imagine a badger trapped in a corner.  The badger will fight with ferocity to get to a position that it considers safe.  Now, imagine that you are that badger.  If you are that badger, then transition is the ONLY position that is safe.  Remaining in the corner (the wrong body) feels like the grip of the devil stealing your soul away, leaving you with an empty and void personality.  I cannot even describe what dysphoria feels like.  I cannot even imagine what it feels like, and I am still experiencing it.  It is that difficult to comprehend.  It still surprises me how bad it can feel, and I've had dysphoric feelings for approximately eighteen years.

If the dysphoria is bad enough, you would be willing to go through just about anything.  It really depends on the severity.  Some people have it less severe, and they find it easier to manage.  Some people have it worse, and they would commit suicide if they had no way to transition.

QuoteI watched 127 Hours recently, the story about the guy who cut off his arm to survive, and I wondered if I would have the courage to do the same thing.  I still am not sure about this, though I would guess that I don't.

That wouldn't be the first comparison I would make, but it might work if it helps you understand.  In a way, dysphoria is much like being trapped in a lethal situation.  You know it is going to get worse, and there are really only two ways out:  death or transition.  The worse the dysphoria gets, the more willing you are to do one of those two things.  The dysphoria feels so bad that you will eventually make one of those choices.  Some people can live in denial for years, or most of their lifetimes, but the dysphoria catches up with them eventually.  I suppose for those who lack courage, they choose death.

ADDENDUM:  Please note that I am not intending to call anyone a coward.  Committing suicide in itself takes a great amount of courage.  Suicide is not "the coward's way out" as it is often portrayed by some people.  Suicide is a desperation move.  I do not necessarily equate suicide with cowardice. But in terms of degrees of courage, while it often takes courage to take one's own life, I perceive that it takes even more courage to transition.[/addendum]

I wish I could describe what it feels like to feel like you are trapped in the wrong body, but I can't.  I could give you the cliche "imagine that you wake up as the opposite sex" but that would be a useless suggestion.  To be honest, imagining that you wake up as the opposite sex would only give you a dimunitive fraction of an idea of what GID is.  I don't think there's any way that anyone could imagine the complex and comprehensive feelings that are present with body or gender dysphoria.  It is way too much to just conjure up in a few seconds.  You'd have to think really hard for a really long time to even come up with a basic idea of what GID actually feels like.  It's not going to happen with some casual ponderance.

One of the main reasons society has such trouble understanding transsexualism is precisely because the condition is so difficult to imagine.  Many people might assume that I am just a man that wants to be a woman.  At best, they may conclude that I have a really intense desire to be a woman.  But "really intense desire" would be the biggest possible understatement of what GID actually feels like.  I feel severe emotional stress from the very fact that I am male.

Have you ever had a really stressfull job?  Did you have to deal with naggy coworkers, unjust supervisors, long hours, or tough workloads?  It's infuriating, isn't it?  Imagine yourself at a stressfull job.  Now imagine that you must work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every week of the year, for the rest of your life.  Oh yeah, and don't forget that there are no lunch breaks.  That is what dysphoria is.  No matter how much you try to relax, no matter how much meditation you do, it is always there.  You feel overworked and overstressed just by there sheer act of existing.  Also, dysphoria tends to get worse over time for most people.  The feeling of being overstressed builds on itself until it becomes unbearable.  If you can comprehend that, then you can understand at least the principle of what dysphoria feels like.

QuoteI think what you wrote to me is brilliant, and should be even published in a mainstream publication, because it is so very hard for cis gendered people to understand what transgendered people are going through.

It's the best explanation I've come up with for what I feel.

I know exactly what you are talking about, about cisgenders not understanding transsexuals.  I know about it because I know that at surface level, there doesn't actually seem to be that much difference between men and women.  So if anyone were to "imagine being the opposite sex" then their initial conclusion would be that it would not be very different from what they currently experience.

I have my own little theory I've been kicking around on this.  I think that biochemically there are a lot more differences between males and females than we realize.  What we see as "male or female" is only the surface level.  We see breasts, we see genitals.  We see differences in how men and women react to certain things, and some different types of interests and socialization.  But for the most part, people are just people.  They go to work, cook supper, and go to sleep.  There are as many variations among gender as there is between gender.  For the most part, one's gender or sexuality appears to play a very minor role in their life.  So if they try to imagine being the opposite sex, they come to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly be too difficult to adjust to.  Annoying perhaps, but not too terrible.

However, this would be the incorrect conclusion, as the evidence from transgendered people shows otherwise.  I have a theory that could explain why.  I think it's because what we see as gender and sex is actually only a very small portion of what it actually is.  I think there are all sorts of differences inside the body that we don't see.  Because we don't see them, we don't realize they are there.  Science has yet to discover these small, and perhaps individually microscopic differences.  So, we don't know how to see them.  But people who perceive themselves being in the wrong body can FEEL them.

The reason people can't imagine very well what it feels like to be the opposite sex, is because there are simply too many differences biochemically in the body to easily imagine such a thing.  I know what it feels like to be male because I was born that way [with a male body].  If I was not born like that, I find it highly unlikely that I would be able to imagine with any detail what it feels like to have an erection, what it feels like to ejaculate, or what facial hair feels like.  I doubt I would have any clue whatsoever if I were cis, what any of those things are actually like.

QuoteSince I've been on this site and started to understand more about ->-bleeped-<-, I've thought, what would I feel like if I were in a man's body?  And my answer is, well, I don't think it would be that bad.  I assume I would just adjust to it.

That's exactly what everyone thinks.  But the real truth is that it is absolutely horrible.  I can't even explain what exactly is so horrible.  I mean, there are a lot of things individually that aren't so bad.  For example, male sexuality isn't all so bad.  I could see myself living with a penis.  It may not be preferred, but it would be doable.  I could come to enjoy masturbation as a male.  I don't think that would be a huge obstacle.  Sex with another person would probably be more of a problem.  But maybe, it could work.

And then there's not having breasts.  When I was younger I really wanted breasts.  But after thinking about it logically, I got to thinking that maybe it's not such a huge deal.  If I were born female, for example, it might not bother me so much if I had tiny breasts.  Maybe I could accept it.

And then there's facial hair.  I hate facial hair.  I hate shaving.  But then I got to thinking, what if I were born female but had facial hair?  Maybe it would be doable.  Maybe the annoyance of shaving wouldn't be so infuriating.  I could probably come to terms with being a female with a facial hair problem.

Individually, aspects of maleness are not so bad.  Most of them would be livable individually, or even enjoyable despite some mild dysphoric feelings.  The problem is that I don't "just" have facial hair, or a penis, or a lack of breasts, or a lack of feminine body shape, or the wrong balance of hormones in the body.  I have all of these things SIMULTANEOUSLY.  While the dysphoria over any one of these things is actually very small, the combined dysphoria from all of them is very huge.  As a whole, the body just feels wrong.  It feels very awkward.  It is distressing, particularly when it is expressing the more common male features such as the growth of facial hair or erections.

As soon as you eliminate the erection in the morning, then you shave the facial hair, then you go to work or school where people perceive and react to you because of the way you look, then you get back from work and you have another erection.  It is an endless cycle.  The dysphoria provokes stress.  But every time you try to address the issues associated with dysphoria, something else crops up.  It's the facial hair growing out again, the knowledge that people treat you a certain way because of your looks, it's another spontaneous erection, it's the knowledge that when you go to sleep you know you will wake up with "morning wood"

Even a very minor dysphoria which repeats itself enough times eventually becomes unbearable.  Eventually your entire life becomes consumed by wanting to avoid the distress caused by dysphoria.  But of course, the only way to do that is to change the things which provoke it.  And the only way to do that is transition, as much as is possible, the body and the personality to what the mind perceives it is supposed to be.

The reason dysphoria is so impossible to understand is because there's isn't a good logical mechanism to understand it.  Dysphoria isn't logical, it is emotional.  When we think of things, we try to think about them logically.  If you think about dysphoria logically, it is impossible to understand what it is.  If you actually did wake up as a man, then the logical thing to do would be to deal with the awkward situation, and the logical conclusion would be that you would eventually become accustomed to being perceived as a man, and that you would eventually learn how to operate the male body.

In reality, this is not the case.  Although I can easily learn how to operate the male body, I cannot just "adjust" to being male.  I feel like I am supposed to be female.  This emotional feeling causes me distress.  The stress makes it difficult for me to interact normally with society or carry out normal activities.

QuoteI don't think the people are at fault -- it's just a concept that is hard to adjust to and they don't know any transgendered individuals to get a proper perspective and form any sort of reasonable opinion.

I don't really blame people for lack of knowledge.  I don't like people judging me, but I can't really blame them for not being able to understand what I am doing and why I am doing it.  But if push comes to shove, I will fight for my right to my own body.  I'm not hurting anyone, so they have no right to try to force me to do something that I don't want to do.  In this case, the thing that I don't want to do is remain male.  In fact, I can't remain male.  I've reached my limit.  I am in too much emotional distress to put transition off for another year or two.  I am already having too many problems trying to function normally in society, and not being "out" to most of the people I know makes it even more difficult because I am hiding all my emotional baggage.  My brain has become a dumpster, and the emotional baggage of dysphoria is starting to push off the lid.

Well written and said, I also feel that way at times.  Hard to explain

Thank you for this!

My boyfriend is FtM (I'm cis), and I'm always trying to understand more, what he went through.

The part about it feeling like a full-time job (with all the stress) was enlightening!

Elizabeth

Very well written essay, especially the part about the stressful job.  A great analogy. 

You can ask people to imagine what it would be like to find themselves in the wrong body. They still don't get it until you add that no-one would know but them, and they are expected to be successful in living that way forever, without any help coping.  Sometimes the penny will drop, but not often.

Its very good. I think my only rider on the piece which i would wish to add as a postscript of some sort, is that being trans is a bit having cancer. We all know that cancer is not just one condition, but several different ones, with different causes, which share a common symptom of uncontrolled cell growth.

I firmly believe that being trans is like that. There are a number of different variations on the condition. They share a common symptom of cross sex identification, but are not necessarily exactly the same. Therefore it is important to understand that just because you may have seen someone on TV, or perhaps met and talked to a trans-person, please please please do not assume that everything you have learned will apply equally to all of us. It simply does not translate. We are all individuals first and foremost, and indeed though we share a common symptom, that does not mean that we all came to that place in the same way, or even for the same "reasons".

If you are an SO (and as well as having being Intersexed and trans myself, I am an SO) please do not assume that everything you "observe" from your partner will also apply to everyone else or indeed visa versa. It may, but it also may not.

Quote from: justmeinoz on January 30, 2011, 06:35:49 AM
Very well written essay, especially the part about the stressful job.  A great analogy.

It didn't take me too long to think about that analogy.  I was quite the workaholic several years ago.  It would upset me when other people were slacking on the job and I had to do their work for them.

But that's exactly what dysphoria feels like to me:  work.  Every time I try to pretend to be male, it feels like work.  It makes it almost impossible to find any pleasure out of life, and whatever pleasure is there always has the creeping dysphoria just under the surface.  I feel so overworked, and the only thing that seems to give me a break is transitioning.

Yes transitioning takes no courage but it takes being desparate. If it feels like your going to lose something then maybe you shouldn't do it. I never had anything to lose. Even my kids were not mine in the sense that i was no good for them because i was no good for myself so i tended to stay away from the first one and the second was in her belly when i did this. It was life or death. I had tried everything else. However, what we get isn't all we think we want too and thats what i eventually found out however, its much much better than before. Now i can stand being alone whereas before it drove me crazy. i hated how testosterone ruled my life both sexually and mentally.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on January 30, 2011, 11:47:31 AM
Yes transitioning takes no courage but it takes being desparate. If it feels like your going to lose something then maybe you shouldn't do it.

Yeah.  Feeling like I have nothing to lose has helped me a lot in my motivations.

For me, strength and courage simply would not suffice for transition.  Over the years I did all sorts of strange experiments with eating and fasting, to gain knowledge about the body.  Most of the earlier experiments were actually very dangerous.  I swear, I risked death multiple times.  One time I almost lost consciousness, and I was certain that if I had there was a good chance I could not wake up.

I found the strength to fast.  I found the strength to study and be scientific.  I found the strength to push the body to its limit.  I found the strength to almost push the body too far past its limits.  But I never really found the strength to transition.  To me, transition feels like being a prey animal, and the predator already has its teeth in my neck.  It takes no strength to thrash around and try to stay alive.  It takes no courage to fight certain death.  A mouse has that much courage.  If I have the courage of a mouse, then I have the courage to transition, because it is my experience that courage has very little to do with why I'm trying to transition at this point in my life.

Thank you

That was well written and insightful. I definitely agree with the desperation bit, because that's how I felt this time last year...I was basically one rung above rock bottom and staring into the abyss and I knew that if i didn't transition that abyss would swallow me whole and wouldn't spit me out. That terrified me and I was desperate to avoid the darkness, transition was the only way to do it and come out the other side alive.

Your analogy and description of dysphoria is definitely a good one. Describing dysphoria can be likened to trying to describe colors to a person who has been blind since birth. The person who doesn't have it has no frame of reference to understand it.

If I may add one thing. You mostly talked about the physical aspects of dysphoria but the social aspects effect me just as much.

To be in a group of people of my birth gender is like traveling to a country with very different culture and values. Even if I can speak the language I still don't know how to behave and I don't understand what is happening most of the time. I must quickly figure out how to blend in and not draw attention to myself lest I am expected to interact more or worse they become hostile toward me. It's kind of like that feeling of homesickness you get after traveling for a long time but in never gets better and you can never go home.

Being in a group of people that are not my birth gender is equally uncomfortable. It should be a place where I fit in and understand the culture but I am excluded from interacting with them the way they do. I was never allowed to learn the rules of being that gender and I'm not accepted as that gender. I'm like a foreigner in a land that I'm not welcome or because they see me as a foreigner that think that I'm something that I am not. I'm Like an American in another country and they expect me to be a cowboy, ride horses and carry a six shooter when really I'm a barista that's lived in a big city my whole life.

Being seen and treated as the gender I really am is a freeing experience. I am home where I belong and I don't have to worry about the cultural differences that consume my life, I can just be and live my life.

Quote from: Tamaki on January 31, 2011, 07:38:17 AM
You mostly talked about the physical aspects of dysphoria but the social aspects effect me just as much.

That's because to me it was always more physical than social.  I have lots of "masculine" interests like working out and playing video games, so I was able to fit in really well with the guys except when it came to sex/girlfriends.  While it was annoying that people perceived me as male, that wasn't nearly as terrible to me as actually having a male body.

I know that some people have more social dysphoria, but I had that on the very low end compared to most transsexuals, it seems.

The funny thing is that even as a MTF transsexual I have a hard time understanding how you, identifying as female in a male body (please correct me if I don't have this right), fit in well around guys in male mode.

I can't imagine how hard it must be for SO's to understand someone who is transgendered.

Quote from: Tamaki on January 31, 2011, 09:52:35 AM
The funny thing is that even as a MTF transsexual I have a hard time understanding how you, identifying as female in a male body (please correct me if I don't have this right), fit in well around guys in male mode.

It's strange how everyone is different.  I can see where you are coming from with your culture analogy.  I would like to be perceived as a girl, but I don't have any particularly severe dysphoria about it.  At least, not most of the time.  I can sort of integrate if I want to.  When I play video games with my friends, I can still have fun.  If I am playing action role playing games I just make female characters, and it makes the game more fun.  Every now and then my friend will say "you go, girl" even though he doesn't know I'm transsexual.  But it is just for fun, for play.  It is a game.

Most pure action games don't have character creation systems.  But I tend to get into the game so much that it doesn't matter.  I prefer cooperative gaming, but I can really get into some of the competitive games.  When I play Smash Brothers it is very easy to ignore any dysphoria I might have over being male because I am focused on the game.  The same thing happens when I work out, I just get into the zone.  I don't really do many activities with my friends though because they like the competitive sports, and I don't really like that rough-and-tumble stuff.  I haven't really talked to my friends much since starting my transition project.  I'm so busy working on myself, I just can't find time to play any games.

It's hard to explain.  Games and activities are things I like to do, so it makes me feel more natural.  It takes my focus off the body (where most of my dysphoria is coming from).  So even though I look male, it feels more like me playing the game, and less like an act.  I'm not acting like I love fighting games.  I LOVE the stupid fighting games.  It is an aspect of who I am.  It is one of the things which I like to do.  To me, doing the games or the activities is more important than being perceived as a girl.

I must fit in really well socially, because I told my best friend many years ago that I wanted to be female when we were having a discussion about what we aspire to do in life.  Last year he just happened to bring it up in a conversation.  He was trying to work out his own theories on sexuality and the body.  He was like, "Hey you remember once when you had that thing with your sexuality?"  And I was like, "Yeah, I still want to be female."

About six or seven years ago, I came out to six different people.  But I blend in so well in male mode, I don't think they are aware of the real me.  It seems that they all think it was a phase I went through.  They don't realize that I don't consider myself to be male, even though I have already told them once upon a time.

But I still have to transition.  I want a female body.  I want to be female, whatever it means in the being of it.  I used to have so much guilt.  I thought it was about sex.  I thought I was just filled with vile self-depreciating thoughts about being used sexually as a woman.  I thought it was some kind of mental and emotional rape of myself to feel like a woman.  And then I realized that no, it wasn't actually about any of that.

Then I thought maybe I just had an obsession.  Maybe I just wanted a female form with breasts and a vagina because I was obsessed with having sex as a female.  Then I realized, no it isn't that at all.  Then I thought maybe I was just obsessed with having a female body in general, even if there's nothing in particular I intended to do with that body.  And then I realized that no, it wasn't even that at all.

The real truth was so much simpler, but so much more impossible to understand.  I know that I want to have a female body.  I know that I will be comfortable if I can achieve that body.  I know that I will  never grow comfortable with the body that I have now.  I don't know how I know these things.  I just know.

I can't even explain to other transsexuals most of the time why being a "woman" doesn't really matter to me.  If I had a female body, I'm not even certain it would matter how people perceive me.  I can't explain why my physical dysphoria is so huge, but my social dysphoria is so small.  All I know is that my current body causes me so much distress that I can't remain like this.  It is a torture every single day.  Everything just feels so wrong.  Even though my body isn't all that masculine to begin with, I still feel like I'm lumbering around in some awkward and badly designed vehicle.

Quote
I can't imagine how hard it must be for SO's to understand someone who is transgendered.

I'm not even sure if I understand myself, much less anybody else.  All I know is that being male makes me feel bad, and being female makes me feel good.  Of course people will say, "How do you know you will feel good by changing your body if all you've ever had was a male body?"  And that's exactly why it is so difficult for people to understand.  I don't have any reason to believe that I have any idea what it is like to have a female body.  There is no logical explanation, and no reason that anyone would believe that I would have the slightest clue.

But I have this feeling.  All I know is that the longer I do this transition, the more feminine I become.  I feel more "female" in my own being, the same feeling that has been haunting me for most of my life.  The more I become it, the more I am at peace and the more joyful I become, and the more I am able to feel it.  People will say, but it is just a feeling.  But to me, this feeling I have inside of me is more accurate than any scientific textbook.

This is excellent work, but I have another analogy for you:

This is not a job. This is prison. This is being told by the warden that you can be the best that there is in prison, knowing that you only desire to be at peace out in the real world.

This thread is wonderful.  Thank you for writing this.  I am AWFUL with words and I never would have been able to put my feelings to text so eloquently as you did here.

VG, you are definitely not alone in having primarily physical dysphoria.  My social dysphoria has always been relatively minor... at least in some ways.  The best way I can describe it is that I don't have this burning desire to be treated as female.  It's more like I have a primal *need* to not be treated as male.  I dislike being in groups of men.  Whenever I am being referenced with explicitly male pronouns, it feels awful - and some of them are worse than others.  I never cared about being called a boy, but being called a man, sir, dude, or (worst of all) mister sets off a bout of dysphoria every time.  I even got severely dysphoric ordering airline tickets this week because the "title" field is mandatory and I am not full-time yet (so I had to choose Mr).

Beyond that, the social dysphoria is there but minor by comparison.  I don't care if the things I like to do are stereotypically male or female, I'm going to do them anyway.
As with you, video games were a coping mechanism.  Somehow, it was like when I was playing them I would get lost in them.  I was, in a sense, neither male nor female and it didn't matter whether I was.  Didn't stop me from making only female characters though

Physical dysphoria though, yuck.  I've wanted to get rid of the "annoying dangler" for as long as I've had conscious thoughts.  Before I started hormones, I was very uncomfortable with my body.  It was like I was in denial that my body was the way it was, and had withdrawn into a shell because of it.  I find myself having trouble remember what it was like, simply because everything feels so much better nowadays.  A bad memory I hope never to revisit.

I wish I had your way with words.  If I had to define my own perception of dysphoria I would describe it as a feeling of distress that stresses me out and causes an awful feeling in the pit of my stomach.  That feeling was triggered primarily by being treated as a male and by my own feelings about my body.

Wow, this should totally be stickied, this makes it lots easier for me to understand what my mate is going thru, I still dont fully get it, but I can at least get there partially now.

Here are my explanations of social dysphoria.

You will have relatively few freinds but many aqaintences in you're birth gender. You're circle of freinds may change a lot but you feel half a part of it all (and that's the best case scenario) no matter what they are into or who they are. You know you do not fit in and you will give off an aura that says "hey look I'm different to you" even if you try you're best. At times when you're bieng really fake the birth gender individuals may think you're a big part of their lifestyle for a small period of time. Deep down you know its all act and "if I was bieng true to myself would I do this, are you having a laugh?"

Then members of your true gender treat you like the opposite gender and only partly socialise with you on few and far between occasions. They treat you like one of the opposite side even if you still have a "theres something different about me" aura about you. They might know that this aura brings you closer to them somehow but instead of working out that you are actually one of them disguised in the body of the opposite gender they will most likely think you are either gay or lesbian.

- Thank you so much for posting this. I am not exactly a direct SO, but my best friend is in serious thought of coming out to his wife about his deep thoughts of wanting to be MtF. He is a wonderful person and I am happy to have him in my life, especially because I get to be with "her" more than anyone else. This essay helped so much to explain, he has done very well but this clarifies some of my questions.