To Maddie's post at the top of page 2--  I am both a Christian and a Recovering Alcholic whose "higher power" concept may seem at odds with the first, but really is not. 

How would I defend my faith in the face of attack?  I would make the person a friend first!  During the course of our friendship, they would see how I approach and use the elements of my faith in my daily life to be the most complete person that I can be.  They would see that my faith is openness to them as best I ever can be if they are honest about their own lives and I will try to be with mine.  In the epistle of James is the quote (or close) "my faith is not my works and my works are not my faith, but by my works you will know my faith".  I do not argue my faith, I live it. 

Could you establish a moral basis for life without your religion?   I could NOT establish a MORAL basis for anyones life without religion, nor can anyone establish one for me without religion.  The basis of morality is that a supreme being (religion) has established and commanded certain absolutes of behavior.  Without a supreme being taking part in it we have no morality in my definition.   I do believe that good people can establish expectations for themselves and their fellow humans as far as behavior goes.  I fully agree that such a system does have the advantage of not having to wait for a divine utterance or the "prayerful" enlightenment of leaders hired to do the thinking of their constituents.  The trouble is that the people, namely all individuals, need to be involved in this if it is to work.  It needs to be a Utopian Ethos!  Such an ethos does not exist, and while some people are able to put aside their own desires and manufactured needs in order to live together, it does not happen often enough to make the world safe for life.  So bad as it is, morality at least has some place in survival.  We humans are still stuck in familiar groups, inspite of knowing we are global and unfamiliar.

We know where our world is today, but looking back, we do have to see where, in addition to the most terrible cruelty and oppression that can be imagined did take place, the majority of people under "Christianity" for last 20+ centuries have survived and progressed to where we have some degree of survivability beyond the basics in a chunk of the world.  We can look deeply at history and see where there have been religions even before written record of them began based on ritual burial and on other scientific findings. The cultures and beliefs of those ancient religions are probably enshrined to some degree in more modern religions but changed to reflect new understandings of the universe and just the dirt around them. Even Christianity itself has changed.  The thoughts and understandings of those of us who post here, are not the same as the the thoughts and understandings of Second Century Christians.  The mischief that is around today is the result of trying to pass off our own slight thoughts of the day to be the weighty thoughts of history. 

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 05, 2011, 07:20:05 AM
So going on.

With my defenses down he ended up moving in and it too was an abusive relationship. Three different times he tried to kill me,he verbally and sexually abused me. He also made numerous threats upon the lives of my family if i ever went to the police. All of these people claimed to be either Christian or religious. There is no logical reason why i should ever want to be a "Christian" or that i should even be able to come to that point unless there is something more to it than claiming a title.

I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later

There is a sense of fulfillment that one can experience when they live a religious life.  It does make me wonder if these hateful people in your life would have been so spiteful had it not been for the black and white description of right and wrong.  As an argument from the Bible itself, it was written in John 13:34, "A new commandment I give you: love one another.  As I have loved you so you must love one another."  If memory serves me correctly, didn't Jesus chill with the tax collectors and other rejects of society?

Quote from: Vicky on June 05, 2011, 04:23:09 PM
To Maddie's post at the top of page 2--  I am both a Christian and a Recovering Alcholic whose "higher power" concept may seem at odds with the first, but really is not. 

How would I defend my faith in the face of attack?  ... I do not argue my faith, I live it. 

Could you establish a moral basis for life without your religion?   I could NOT establish a MORAL basis for anyones life without religion, nor can anyone establish one for me without religion.  The basis of morality is that a supreme being (religion) has established and commanded certain absolutes of behavior....

That's one way of looking at it I suppose.  However I do pose a question that Socrates originally asked Euthyphro: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"

In other words "Does God command what is morally good because it is so, or is it morally good because God commands it?"
The first case removes the concept of God's sovereignty and omnipotence not to mention that morality would exist even without God.
If the second case were true, then our morals are subject to the arbitrary whims of God.  Anything could become good and anything could become bad overnight.

God gives us a conscience which tells us what is right and wrong

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 05, 2011, 05:22:19 PM

That's one way of looking at it I suppose.  However I do pose a question that Socrates originally asked Euthyphro: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"

In other words "Does God command what is morally good because it is so, or is it morally good because God commands it?"
The first case removes the concept of God's sovereignty and omnipotence not to mention that morality would exist even without God.
If the second case were true, then our morals are subject to the arbitrary whims of God.  Anything could become good and anything could become bad overnight.

Even good pious church people tend to miss one point in the creation story.  The point was that YHWH asked The man "who told you you were naked?" when YHWH catches them in their new duds the day after the fruit feast.  This brings us to the question of what "good and evil" actually means.  I for one do wonder if it refers to judgmentalism and not actual "rules to live by."  Rules to live by would be the lazy way out, which we humans are known for.  Later on clothing becomes a part of "The Law", but it appears that whatever ideas YHWH had, men were going to make them what they wanted them to be no matter how they were chisled into stone. Thus, in your first part, would we listen or obey if God gave good stuff even if it were good for us? Genesis does not make that look like a sure thing.  The Man had a conscience, but it was a guilty one whether that was YHWH's idea or not. 

Religions even other and older than Christianity have shown us the whimsicality of "Gods" and what they want.  The incident with Moses and the 10 commandments, where Moses destroys the only known exemplar of God's handwriting, and has to go back and write the thing himself is a bit like the few seconds of blank tape in the Watergate files of President Nixon.  We don't have the best evidence available.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is evolution in whatever "general precepts of morality" do exist.  Morality and even an ethos derived by the minds of men must take into account the idea that we want the human race and our world to survive, so survival itself is a moral/ethical standard that needs to be here.  The survival next needs to be extended from our little cells out globally to other people.  We did not know this 2K years ago, but we do now.  I know that I have the memory and reason to deal with this, and whether it is YHWH or BioLogy that has given them to me is not going to make a difference in what I do, but I cannot speak for another man or woman.  The question that you have is an "if A then not B" structure to a structureless diety.  I prefer a "if A then whats wrong with the idea that B may occur along with C, D, and F".  (E deliberately omitted)

I think you and my oldest daughter have been talking to each other though!   

I find that Adam and Eve were set up for failure from the very beginning.  The fruit of the tree of good an evil would surely let them know right from wrong.  However eating from the tree was wrong; a concept they wouldn't have been able to understand.

Imagine I tell you that you need to disarm a bomb.  However you have no idea what a bomb is or what it does.  Then I tell you snipping the red wire will make the bomb explode.  You don't know that exploding is a bad thing because the concept is foreign.  You're pretty much guaranteed to blow yourself up at that point.

This is precisely what happened in Genesis.  And now we're supposed to be blamed for something that really wasn't Adam's fault in the first place.  I don't know about you but I'm loath to believe the mind behind all that is benevolent.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 05, 2011, 07:13:14 AM
It seems to me the true believers are those like us who have been abused both sexually and physically and mentally and so we seek a greater power outside this world. We surly know we will never be loved here on earth by people and so we pray for that love from God above.  I could tell you stories that would also shock even your story. After i transitioned i had hoped to find another like myself who went thru the same and had true love to give but alas i have even long given up on that. It seems even here most of the TS want sex first without finding love. And as for the pervs who follow and stalk us well thats why i changed my appearence. I wish you well Sarah in your life and may your forever above finally bring you peace and love. I hope to see ya there 

I have met a number of missionaries that have seen first hand people coming out of the occult. Those stories make mine look like a pleasant walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon.

Right now as i have not transitioned yet it puts me in a bit of a different situation. I look at it it would not be right of me to put someone else into a bad position. So on this this i can agree with Paul when he talks about not being married that i can focus more on pleasing God.SO it's not a bad thing.

Just remember there is nothing that can take us from His hands 

Maddie:
I still argue in favor of the Genesis reading that they learned, not what a diety wanted them to learn, but how to be all too humanly judgmental, and decide that they knew better than YHWH or any other GD diety they could come up with.  They learned how to create a need for morality, not the best structure of the morality itself.  Look at the big piece of real estate they got by mis behaving though!! Possibly the human race was a bad idea as Lucifer was known to have postulated.  The Gnostics may have been right after all.  They claimed that the world and creation were the result of a cosmic accident and a lesser God created humans full of the piss and vinegar that we have.  I do not believe in the literality of the Creation Story myself, but that does not keep me from holding a belief in the unseen, based on what I have seen and felt. 

(She does sound like my eldest daughter! )

M2 & Sarah--

The suffering that you and others have received is something I have shared in my own way, and knowing that we are powerless over much of our lives, I do believe in a higher power because  I was powerless in and of myself to deal with my suffering.  Sometimes that power can be in the form of caring loving humans that we never sought out before.  I for one think that God can speak even through those who claim they reject Him as long as they can accept us whether its for Alcoholism, Transsexuality, recovery from abuse and so on. I do not need to check on someone's baptismal certificate to allow them to put their arms around me for spiritual comfort, or whether they went to church last Sunday to listen to me.  Whatever compels a human heart to respond in true and accepting love is God to me.

After thinking about this today i do need to clarify a couple of points. One of the things with the drugs and alcohol
is that i had reached the point of going on binges and doing so more often by myself and even when i was going out from time to time i didn't limit myself i just kept going.
With the young woman she left me with some cuts and bruises on my face but nothing that needed doctors attention.
As for the guy the three times he tried to kill me once he tried to chock me. One he slashed my wrists. and the third he stopped on a railroad track with a train coming and locked the passenger side door. (Electronic locks)
It seemed as if he would only go so far and then suddenly just stop.

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 05, 2011, 07:20:05 AM
So going on.

With my defenses down he ended up moving in and it too was an abusive relationship. Three different times he tried to kill me,he verbally and sexually abused me. He also made numerous threats upon the lives of my family if i ever went to the police. All of these people claimed to be either Christian or religious. There is no logical reason why i should ever want to be a "Christian" or that i should even be able to come to that point unless there is something more to it than claiming a title.

I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later

Here i am at 21 the young lady that i was seeing is breaking up with me. Family has moved away. I had left the church,had not even looked at a bible in years, the guy i am living with is continuing the abuse, i am dealing with severe sexual issues and i am hurting so bad that all i am asking God to do is to let me die. It led me to a cold night in January i ended driving around and ended up at the last house i had grown up in. Being that it was a semi rural area we lived across one of the last farm fields in the area. I parked the car and started into the field there was still snow on the ground about 12-14 inches but i didn't care. It was a cold night about 10-15 degrees
outside. I walked about 1/2 mile into the field and i just screamed at God and yelled out "Why? I don't understand this. How can people hurt each other so much? How can anyone who says they are Christian hurt someone else so badly?"  After that i just broke down and started sobbing. I headed back to the car after some time (A bit hard to do to see through the tears and the thick glasses) I finally reached the car and continued sobbing for quite some time. I still did not get an answer that night. Even through all of this there was one thing i could not let go of.

As i am about to crash on my keyboard i do need to leave it here for tonight.

The thing was is nothing ever changed until i reached a point that i did something that i had never done before. I went into my room and just started speaking from me heart. For all i knew at that point i could have just been talking to the walls. I didn't really think i had much else to lose. It didn't sound like a prayer. It wasn't flowery. It wasn't like a prayer you would hear at church. I just started listing my confusion,doubts,fears and even so far as to state that i didn't even know if He really existed. What i had missed in all of this was that i had spent so much time and effort looking at other people and asking them their views and such but i left out one person. I had Never bothered to ask God what the truth was.

Slowly as time went on i did start getting some of the answers to my questions. The thing was is that after this the people i ended up working with,the places i would go and even circumstantices always ended pointing to one person and that was Jesus. The point is nothing changed till i started seeking God Himself instead of others peoples opinions and views.


As to what happened in history there is more but i will go into that later.

  Time, and God's grace.  I was taught by good Sunday School teachers as a child.  One was Nazarene, the other and last, a Methodist who was a kindly widow.  The Methodist teacher was the one that influenced my life as did others that had her.  When those other kids in my class got older and had kids themselves, they took their kids to her, even when they went to another church!  We moved out of the church's area as a teenager, but I kept the faith.  Going to church got rare after that until I joined the Navy.  I latched on to a nondenominational group that was witnessing on board ship during lax times and went to a Grace Brethren while my squadron was in port.  I reaffirmed my faith in God and His Son at that church.  I been to too few services at various Baptist churches and others my relatives went.  I still align myself to the Methodists though.
  My job and hobbies contain a lot of science with them, but that didn't sway my faith in the higher Power.  Even with my bouts with the GID over those long years, He was with me.   When I go on HRT about two months in, I started to cuss at myself over the small boo-boos less and less until I heard an inner voice said "It's OK Joe, God still loves you, no matter what you may become".  I never heard that kind of voice before, just the ones that were self criticizing! 
  Joelene

One thing that is often stated is that it's blind faith. But is this really true? Is our faith in Yahweh really to be blind? We have been given 3 things that whether you look in old testament or new He keeps going back to them. See,listen and think. He did state that our foundation was to be set on solid ground so that it would not be moved. He also keeps going back to the things He did as evidence that what He said was true and He often says believe because you have seen. So what does this mean? I believe that what this points to is that God will give us enough to be able to make that choice.

Being at the point of history that we are in a bit of a disadvantage in that we can not see what He did at that time. The second is that it is rare to see the kind of lives that is spoken of Acts. To see the kind of love and compassion that can even love our enemies. The third is that for whatever reason the kind of miracles that God performed through the disciples. But does this mean that this is the only means that God can use to show us the truth? By no means does this mean that the answer is no. I believe that He also at the same time laid down groundwork that we can check and test.

What we do have is first off we do have the four accounts of Jesus life. Two written by Matthew and John both of which were of the 12 hand picked by Jesus. These 2 being first hand accounts. Mark may have been one of the outer circles of disciples and it's very possible that it is a first hand account. Which brings us to the fourth account which is the most unique. It was written by Luke who is coming from a different point of view.

I do have to come back to this later as the weather is getting foul here.

Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels.  John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 08, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels.  John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.

You'll have to break into the vatican for that, but then you'd also find marriage and family tree records of Jesus's (in my opinion)...  Those would cause conflict in the indoctrination that has been built for centuries.

i am inclined to believe tings that are presented in logical fashion. then, for me to believe i must have empirical proof. then i will believe. i follow noone and nothing blndly.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 02, 2011, 03:36:14 PM
  We should not live in hopes that we will be blessed but for others that they might have it better than we did.  If this is true then yes I walk the path you talk about.

This is the essence of Judaism. Christianity is a religion of faith, Judaism is a religion of action and intellectual development.

I was thought Catholicism, the religion of my father, but not Judaism -the religion of my mother.I explored Christianity, but I found that Christianity is not the religion of Jesus but a religion Paul made about Jesus; more disturbing was discovering how Jesus was elevated to divinity.

I liked Buddhism/Zen/Taoism but while providing calmness and bliss they fail at providing a nexus to G-d. They were more of a philosophical way of live rather than a religion.

I spent many years connecting to G-d but without a religion, but something was missing. One day, while learning about Judaism, as an intellectual development and to learn about the religion of my mother, I discover that the  beliefs of Judaism closely parallel my own internal moral compass, etc, etc, Thus, know i am a reform Jew. An added benefit, reform Judaism totally accepts TG; we have several ordain TS rabbis.

Shalom,

Kate D

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 08, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels.  John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.

You are correct that in that sense they can be classified that way. I do apologize as i should have clarified by what i meant. What i meant by Luke being unique is that it is the only one that the writer himself states that it is not an eyewitness account. It is also a letter written to a single person. It is also the only account we have left that is not written by a Jew.

I do agree it would be a bit easier if we had other documentation. It is very unlikely to ever have any Roman documentation of the trail and crucifixion as it would have been a touchy subject as you do have the aftermath of the trial. As it would have been an embarrassment at the very least and someones head may have been on the line the evidence would have been so to speak shredded.


I have often found that i do not like the high minded sounding theologic arguments as for me they often cloud the picture and to often they end up being heated arguments.

I would like to point out that what i am sharing on these things are what give me the building blocks that i can say that what i believe is true.

Anyways going back to Luke. What do we know about Luke? We know he is most likely Greek and he is a physician. So what does this mean? It means that he is educated and most likely he learned Greek philosophy and rational thinking.
Who did he write the letter to? He wrote the letter to his friend Theophilus. Now what does this mean? First it a was a personal letter to one friend. One of the things that go with that is it's usually not intended to go beyond that friend.
What was his purpose for writing the letter? Luke states that it so his friend could know that what he was taught was the truth. One of the other things he states is that others had written about Jesus before and were speaking about the things He had said and done. One of the other things is that he himself investigated the accounts.
Now the question is why? Somewhere along the line he had heard the stories. Now it is possible that Luke may have been a skeptic or at the very least he was not convinced by just hearing what others were telling them. He wanted to find out if the stories were true.

So what does this all mean to me? What this all tells me is that Luke in his concern for his friend and himself takes it upon himself to check out the stories. He is not going to be convinced without compelling evidence. How long it took him we do not know but it was not overnight. It also gives me a bit more confidence that Luke is not pulling my leg so to speak.

Now does any of this mean that i can base my faith on this alone? Of course not all this is is a small stepping stone. But it does give me confidence that if someone else was able to see the evidence then i to should be able to.

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 08, 2011, 07:48:51 PM

I do agree it would be a bit easier if we had other documentation. It is very unlikely to ever have any Roman documentation of the trail and crucifixion as it would have been a touchy subject as you do have the aftermath of the trial. As it would have been an embarrassment at the very least and someones head may have been on the line the evidence would have been so to speak shredded.

Jesus was but one of many thousand Jew that the Romans crucified. The Romans kept details on the number of crucifixions, but no on the people crucified.

Kate D

If I hadn't been indoctrinated into my religion I still think I'd have found God.  I've known ''Christians'' who made my me raise my eyebrows because of their behavior. But the ones who have that certain something which I consider true Christianity have shown me love, kindness and what it means to be a real Christian.  When I hear of people being persecuted because of whatever I immediately think of the woman at the well. I know that I'll be the only one answering for the decisions I've made, the things I've done and the things I hope to do in the future.

On the other hand, if I'd been raised in a family which actively denied religion or God who knows?  I do know my time at church was one of happiness and peace.  And someday when I'm able to return I will.  My faith is strong and no matter how many intolerant people there are it doesn't waver.  He loves me.       

Oh wow! a religion conversation. ill take off and leave yall to it!!

L8er

It is very interesting, and indeed a life changing experience to witness in one self and in others  how the proximity of death can so quickly change what you believe. I first witness, while in combat, how most atheists and believers alike where making deals with G-d for their own survival, and when wounded most call for their mothers.They look at you with begging eyes as if you had the power of save them as they die. Tears!

Many years later I witness the same in the terminally ill patient in the hospital. Suddenly the cockiness all but evaporate. The evil, the fraud, die with anxiety, the good ones with peace and calmness, but make no mistake both know that something is coming their way.

Shalom,

Kate D