Quote from: SarahM777 on June 15, 2011, 05:50:18 AM

Luke tells me that he was able to do the research and verify it so much so that he was convinced that it was true.
If it was verified to them can it not also be verified to us also?

There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans.  L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people.  He can certainly be verified to have lived.  Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).

Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule.  If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit.  It's certainly something to ponder. 

I do think i need to clarify something when i said what i said about Luke being able to verify it, he was able to verify it enough for he himself to come to the conclusion that he did. In and of itself it does not prove it. All that it tells me is that there can be a point that it can be verified enough for us to be able to believe. Nothing more or nothing less.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 15, 2011, 09:45:40 AM
There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans.  L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people.  He can certainly be verified to have lived.  Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).

Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule.  If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit.  It's certainly something to ponder. 

I do agree there are a lot of things claiming to be true and now with the communications and technology as advanced as we have now i could (depending on the mind set of the one i was telling it to) taking it to the extreme "prove" that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig,Daffy Duck and Mickey Mouse are real. I could "prove" that the moon is made of salt water taffy and blue bubble gum. But that does not make it true.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 13, 2011, 07:03:32 PM

I find the best policy is to always put your beliefs to the test.  Do not assume what you believe is true, in fact attack your faith with everything you can.  If it holds, your faith is justified.  If it fails, you have been freed from a lie.  As for a faith that would tell you not to question it and simply believe, that is a faith with something to hide.

I agree. If you think about almost without exception as children we were taught about a man in a red suit that goes around once a year flying across the sky in a tiny sleigh pulled by eight flying deer. He goes around giving toys to good little boys and girls. He somehow magically goes up and down chimneys. etc.....
But the down side is how many of us were disappointed,crushed etc when we found out it was not true. But we still go on every year putting up little displays with a fictional character because it makes us feel good. How many Christmas specials do we see with this guy in it? But none of it makes it true.

If i am told to just believe in something without question it makes me think that it's a scam. (How could scam artists stay in business if people started questioning if what they were saying is credible and true and can be verified?)

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 15, 2011, 09:45:40 AM
There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans.  L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people.  He can certainly be verified to have lived.  Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).

Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule.  If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit.  It's certainly something to ponder.

At the core is the deep seated human need for myths, isn't it?

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 15, 2011, 05:50:18 AM
Please correct me if i am wrong but did not Jesus keep telling the people of His day believe in Me because of what you have Seen? I may be wrong but i have yet to read where Jesus ever said just believe because I said so.
I believe He kept pointing to the miracles as evidence that what He said was the truth. The tomb could have been just left vacated and no one may have never seen Him but He did not do that. It is recorded that He showed Himself alive to multiple witnesses as evidence that it is the truth. Even to the point that Thomas was quoted as saying "Unless i see the nail marks in His hands and put my fingers where the nails were,and put my hand into His side i will not believe" (I do not blame Thomas as it is possible that he saw the whole thing and it would be very difficult to believe that someone actually rose from the dead after seeing them being beaten to a pulp, punctured with spikes,hung on a cross and then skewered like a kabob and then possibly helping with the burial)
Taking what Thomas said one step further. It is implied that he would not nor could not believe what he was being told, so much so that even if he saw Jesus he still would not believe what his eyes were seeing because his proof was that he had to actually touch Him with his own hands in order to believe.
Jesus goes and shows Himself to Thomas so that he would have the evidence so that he could believe.


Luke tells me that he was able to do the research and verify it so much so that he was convinced that it was true.
If it was verified to them can it not also be verified to us also?

I do agree that there are aspects to faith where we can not see but i believe our faith in Him can be shown to have a firm foundation and is not blind

I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do.  Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 15, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do.  Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.

M2MtF2FtM

I do apologize because i made it sound like i was dissing your faith. Please forgive me. After rereading what i said it does come across as if i am saying that the only way that we can that firm foundation is if we come by knowing all the written and other evidences. That is not always the case nor is it meant to be. (It does not allow Yahweh to be Yahweh) For some the proof for them is the experiences,for others it is in exactly the way you describe it, they see it in the way things work around them and still others need to see something physically. It does not mean any of these are wrong it just means that something that may touch one may not touch someone else. (All of us are different from each other so it makes sense that Yahweh would use different things for each of us)

I am also guilty of forgetting that there is more then one kind of sight. Not everything can be perceived by physical sight.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 15, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do.  Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.

M2MtF2FtM, I cared for my mom who was ill for a number of years.  The day she died I was the only one with her so we spent the day talking.  There was nothing the doctors could do and it was obvious she was dying.  She knew and I knew.  It was the hardest day of my life but something happened that day which gave me such a sense of peace.  About 10 minutes before she passed, she looked up toward the wall in front of her and raised her arms as if welcoming or reaching out to someone.  I know without a doubt it was either God or perhaps my Grandad and Granny who'd come for her.  The expression on her face was one of happiness and I'll never forget that. When she died I wanted to die also.  The only thing that kept me from acting on that was the fact that I have someone else depending on me and that no matter how difficult my life may become I have to live it and live it with faith.  ''Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.''  You're as blessed as me.  Mama and I had great times, difficult times but I wouldn't trade any of it for all the gold in the world.  Someday I'll see her again and that will be the happiest day of my life.   

Quote from: Lady_J on June 16, 2011, 12:07:04 PM


M2MtF2FtM, I cared for my mom who was ill for a number of years.  The day she died I was the only one with her so we spent the day talking.  There was nothing the doctors could do and it was obvious she was dying.  She knew and I knew.  It was the hardest day of my life but something happened that day which gave me such a sense of peace.  About 10 minutes before she passed, she looked up toward the wall in front of her and raised her arms as if welcoming or reaching out to someone.  I know without a doubt it was either God or perhaps my Grandad and Granny who'd come for her.  The expression on her face was one of happiness and I'll never forget that. When she died I wanted to die also.  The only thing that kept me from acting on that was the fact that I have someone else depending on me and that no matter how difficult my life may become I have to live it and live it with faith.  ''Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.''  You're as blessed as me.  Mama and I had great times, difficult times but I wouldn't trade any of it for all the gold in the world.  Someday I'll see her again and that will be the happiest day of my life.

That must have been such an experience and well it makes me smile when i read things like that knowing its all true.


i wrote this after my fathers passing in 2007.


Canvassing on Baracks Birthday - a bright light over Massachusetts, DAD ! - Culpeper Veterans Cemetary - WWII Normandy's D-day 2nd wave - I love you my sweet Jesus -1000 to 2000 WWII veterans are dying every day

I wrote this on wensday but i went sick so i am late posting it.

My dad had two hip surgeries in the last 2 years. In the last month I had applied for veterans benefits for my Dad. He didn't want the benefits because he was more concerned for the Iraq veterans. I finally got him registered at the Salem VA Hospital last Monday. Two weeks ago my dad had a stroke. I went down to see him in Virginia. He was able to make a complete smile for me, even though he was paralyzed on one side. My brother went to see him the weekend before last. Then last Wednesday the nurses called me and said my dad had caught pneumonia. I told them to get him to a hospital. My brother (privately) then called and said maybe it was best to let my dad pass. I didn't know how serious my dad was or what my brother had done.My brother later told me that he didn't have much chances for a decent life.

I left last Friday at 7pm to help canvass in new Hampshire Saturday. When I arrived I received a call about 11am that my dad had made a turn for the worse. The nurses said he might not make it though the night. I was shocked. I wondered what I should do. I knew I had driven 7 hours to help the campaign and my dad was dying. I stayed and canvassed
(because like my Dad, he would have wanted me to help other veterans by helping Barack get elected to end this stupid war)
which ended at 3pm and at 3:15 I received a call that they were giving my dad morphine to ease his pain. I then headed south. At about 4:30 I was driving over a bridge and a lake in Massachusetts. I saw a bright light in the sky. Its was like nothing I had even seen before. I said to myself DAD?
In about 15 minutes the nurses called again and said that my Dad had gone un conscience. I kept driving and about 9pm I was in new jersey. I had picked up a hitchhiker in conn who helped me stay awake. He was heading west. We talked. Then about 9:15 the nurses called to say my dads body was turning colors. I called my brother who had just got out of a wedding. My brother said if I felt able I should keep driving. I also had to call a funeral home to pick up his body. My brother was tired from the wedding so I made that call. I kept driving and I had to smack my face constantly to stay awake and the rider had helped me too. I had arrived in staunton Virginia at 5:53 am. I walked into my dads room and he was breathing hard but I didn't realize his condition. I just saw him burning up. I placed some towels I had soaked in ice water to cool him down. I still didn't realize just how bad he was. I cried as I layed my head to his chest and heart and hugged him and then he slowly began to breathe slower. I then called the nurses and they came into the room. Within 2 minutes he gritted his teeth and passed away. He had allowed his body to stay alive until I got there and then he saw I was hurting so he stopped his body. I then realized the bright light over that lake in Massachusetts was my dad. I then went to his sister rose's nursing home. I told her that he was gone. I had been keeping her informed as I drove from new Hampshire to Virginia.

Sunday night I was able to get some sleep at my aunt rose's house in waynesboro Virginia. There I was visited in spirit by my Dad, my grandma, my grandfather (who had never visited me spiritually) and my uncle Charles, who I barely knew but lived many years at that house. It was short but sweet.

Yesterday I buried my dad at culpeper veterans cemetery. He was a Normandy veteran. He was the second wave after D-day. My brother was there to receive the flag. We are both Vietnam veterans. I told the man to put "I love you my sweet Jesus" under his name and dates etc. My other siblings were not able to make it. There had been some issues they had but my brother and myself knew dad had suffered much from WWII. We had forgiven him for his issues over 20 years ago. We had been visiting him since the late 80's. My Dad had taught me how to work. He use to say a "nickel a bag" which meant we could earn some money by collecting weeds in a paper grocery bag and he would give us a nickel. He also prayed with me each night as a child. I would always end the prayer with "goodnight my sweet Jesus - I love you my sweet Jesus" My Dad would say that's a Danie prayer! My dad also taught me to plant vegetables and most of my life I have planted gardens if not for me for someone who had the space. This year I did plant mostly flowers for the woman I care give, but I did get a volunteer tomato plant which so far just has flowers due to it being in a shaded location. It was from my composting pile.

I finally got back to Phila last night. I had a friend take over for me (taking care of the 84 year old woman I care give/ Mom)

I did just receive a call about my campobama training next weekend. I told them I would be able to make it.

Dad you are always with me now. You will help guide me in all I do just like nanny has been doing.

PUBLISHED: Friday, July 27, 2007
Each day, 1,000 to 2,000 World War II veterans die nationally.


The last two weeks really took a toll on me. I had ignored my own health and today i went into the VA Phila hospital from 7am till 11am and was given IV and injectable medicine. I have a major infection in my kidney which was causing me to be in a state of high fever. I thought it was just the east coast heat.

Keep me in your prayers and may God watch over us all as we understand that when we die we only shed ours shells. Our spirits do live forever. Its the love we share here that will keep us connected once we move on.

My favorite saying is

"Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return"

I'm not trying to ruin a moment here but the brain itself is a wonderful thing.  It responds to chemicals such as melatonin (sleep), serotonin (happiness), oxytocin (love), dopamine (feeling good), and literally dozens of others.  Under times of great stress (such as running a marathon or fighting for your life) the brain releases endorphins to counteract the pain and let you keep going.  This is commonly referred to as runner's high.

Your brain has to interpret acoustic and visual information.  It has to recognize countless faces, excelling at those we see most often or have strong memories of.  When it acts up, it can make you see and hear things that aren't even there at all. 

My point is that the brain is responsible for pretty much everything.  It drives our perception of reality and tells us how we're feeling.  It's the command center of the body and it needs a lot of oxygen to function.  When the heart stops, the brain stops receiving oxygen.  All sorts of systems get screwed up leading to out of body experiences and the like.  That white light is a cascade of neural activity as the brain's cells struggle to survive.  You might even see people important to you.  All in all it seems like a better place.  After that flurry of activity, the brain cells begin to die and after a time there is no way to revive the person as the brain is simply too damaged to get going again.  Death itself isn't instantaneous either.  It's a fairly long process lasting several minutes from cardiac arrest until total irreversible death.

Understanding this model, I'm not afraid of death.  It should prove to be quite pleasant when it occurs.  Of course I could end up getting my head blown off or have one of many other violent deaths.  You know it's funny, my mother always says "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't no proof is enough."  I suppose that's true to an extent.  If you already believe, you'll see things that prove your faith all the time and leave it at that.  And those who don't believe will see the same occurrence and see it as a matter worth investigating.

You're in my prayers.  Thanks so much for sharing what you wrote about your father.  It brought me back to two years ago when Mama passed but this time I smiled.  Parents love us so much and even when dying they continue to do so.  God bless you.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 16, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
I'm not trying to ruin a moment here but the brain itself is a wonderful thing.  It responds to chemicals such as melatonin (sleep), serotonin (happiness), oxytocin (love), dopamine (feeling good), and literally dozens of others.  Under times of great stress (such as running a marathon or fighting for your life) the brain releases endorphins to counteract the pain and let you keep going.  This is commonly referred to as runner's high.

Your brain has to interpret acoustic and visual information.  It has to recognize countless faces, excelling at those we see most often or have strong memories of.  When it acts up, it can make you see and hear things that aren't even there at all. 

My point is that the brain is responsible for pretty much everything.  It drives our perception of reality and tells us how we're feeling.  It's the command center of the body and it needs a lot of oxygen to function.  When the heart stops, the brain stops receiving oxygen.  All sorts of systems get screwed up leading to out of body experiences and the like.  That white light is a cascade of neural activity as the brain's cells struggle to survive.  You might even see people important to you.  All in all it seems like a better place.  After that flurry of activity, the brain cells begin to die and after a time there is no way to revive the person as the brain is simply too damaged to get going again.  Death itself isn't instantaneous either.  It's a fairly long process lasting several minutes from cardiac arrest until total irreversible death.

Understanding this model, I'm not afraid of death.  It should prove to be quite pleasant when it occurs.  Of course I could end up getting my head blown off or have one of many other violent deaths.  You know it's funny, my mother always says "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't no proof is enough."  I suppose that's true to an extent.  If you already believe, you'll see things that prove your faith all the time and leave it at that.  And those who don't believe will see the same occurrence and see it as a matter worth investigating.

maddie i do not mean to be abrupt but you must be working for the devil/lucifer/satan

THE DEVIL MADE HER DO IT  

There's an equally statistical likelihood of either God or the devil putting me up to this.  In both cases the odds are zero percent.  I can understand why one would associate bright lights in the sky and other such things to faith.  But that's a circular argument for why someone believes.  One starts out with the idea of God's existence.  And with that bias already in mind, one attributes that they know God exists based on coincident phenomena.  However the only reason the idea that it's attributed to the supernatural is because of the initial idea that the supernatural exists in the first place.  Whence comes this idea? 

As for myself, I was taught from an early age the ways of Catholicism.  However I noticed too many inconsistencies for most of the "proofs" to prove anything.  In a world where bright lights are the souls of the dying, there ought to be bright lights in the sky all the time (the stars don't count).  Of course people are going to have similar near death and actual death experiences.  Our brains are built upon remarkably similar genetic instructions and this are remarkably similar to each other as far as involuntary reflexes go.  Remember correlation does not imply causation.  You might notice that there aren't as many pirates around as there used to be.  You also notice global warming has gone up as of late.  It stands to reason then that pirates keep the earth cool.  Incidentally Somalia, a country with a lot of pirates has very low carbon emissions.  This little fact "proves" the previous conclusion quite nicely.

Maddie the scientist!  Maddie if you were there at 9-11 when i got there the first day as a volunteer working to pull bodies out below the walkway bridge you could feel the spirits all trying to get themselves back into composure because their bodies were all torn apart. It took them days and even longer to understand what had happened to them. This is something you have to be open too. If everything is all fact based well then even your world of science can't go forward with theory. Yet my brother who is a physicist at John Hopkins applied physics lab knows that he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown. Yes he is like you and has given up on spirituality. However, he is always amazed at the spiritual things that happen in my life. It boggles his mind he says.

What makes me believe?  When I was a practicing Catholic, the answer was mostly outside pressure.  You had to believe or you would be ridiculed.

What makes me believe now is logic, to the extent my puny human mind can take it.  Infinity?  Something from nothing?  No beginning and no end?  There has to be something beyond the physical.

I believe because the Son of God has come into my life and made changes in me that I could not do myself.

The good Lord told Thomas Because you have seen me you believe but blessed are those who have not seen me and yet believe.

The Bible says that we have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. Those blessings aren't always those that are seen as in money and such. It is in salvation and having the peace which can only come from Christ. That peace in our heart and soul and the counsel of peace between man and God's wrath to be poured out on the last day. Money can't buy salvation and just being straight, cisgendered, Baptist, Protestant or whatever won't be good enough.

The blessings in Psalms are for the most parts spiritual. Not what the televangelists have twisted the word of God to represent. The Bible says they will pay for blaspheming the word of God and causing the unbelieving to mock God.

The Bible also says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The eternal substance in heaven mentioned in Hebrews is Christ who is the substance of our eternal hope and the evidence of the unseen God.

When the day comes when they find Noah's ark for sure and can prove it and the remnants of Sodom and such there will be no more time for men to be saved. When that happens it will no longer be faith. It will be as Thomas who had to see to believe.

The good Lord even asked, When he returns will he find faith.

But, that's what I believe.

Quote from: Del on June 17, 2011, 09:55:39 AM
When the day comes when they find Noah's ark for sure and can prove it and the remnants of Sodom and such there will be no more time for men to be saved. When that happens it will no longer be faith. It will be as Thomas who had to see to believe.

For me, it wouldn't matter if they found Noah's ark or not.  If it ever existed, it wouldn't prove to me there was anything spiritual about it.  I would certainly be impressed if it was large enough to carry all the life it was said to have.  And I would be VERY impressed if one man built it.  But it would do nothing for me in terms of making me believe there is a God as described in the Bible.

As far as finding Sodom, scientists have a theory about where it is and how it was destroyed.  Again, if they are right, that would have no influence on my religious or spiritual beliefs.  What I believe at this point is pretty stable.  There would have to be something REALLY extraordinary to alter it.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 17, 2011, 06:22:49 AM
Maddie the scientist!  Maddie if you were there at 9-11 when i got there the first day as a volunteer working to pull bodies out below the walkway bridge you could feel the spirits all trying to get themselves back into composure because their bodies were all torn apart. It took them days and even longer to understand what had happened to them. This is something you have to be open too. If everything is all fact based well then even your world of science can't go forward with theory. Yet my brother who is a physicist at John Hopkins applied physics lab knows that he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown. Yes he is like you and has given up on spirituality. However, he is always amazed at the spiritual things that happen in my life. It boggles his mind he says.

I hope I never have to witness such a thing.  Not because it would upset my world view but because of the tragedy for those involved.  If such an unfortunate event occurs near me, I'll be on the lookout for spirits. I am however of the opinion that evidence will present itself whether you are open to it or not. I don't have to believe in cows to see one in front of me.

he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown

Yeah, but there is no real risk involved.  If his theories, or calculations, or both, are off, then it's not like at that instant the earth spins off it's axis and goes careening through the universe.  All he's doing is trying to solve a problem, and anyone, and everyone, who has ever looked at 'solving problems' in the broad sense knows that there are a hella lot more incorrect ways to solve them than correct ways.

That's all science really is, a collection of our 'correct solutions' with a predictability rate attached.  There is nothing you have to 'believe' in fact, if its not demonstrable, its' not science.  It's all based on the measurable world, a world we experience with our senses.  Science says nothing about which it does not know, because "I don't know" is considered an appropriate answer, if you really don't know.

But when you start planning and living your life based upon something that can't be seen - metaphysics as it were - well that does involve more than a degree of risk.

Well, particle physics still hypothesizes the existence of the Higgs Boson (AKA the 'God' particle) as an explanation of why everything in the universe has mass, even though no one's ever actually seen or found one of them. (Although they thought they had, at the Large Hadron Collider, a couple of months ago, but it turned out to be a false alarm.)

So it seems there's a fair amount of belief at the cutting edge of science. Folks in Switzerland are searching for a God, of a sort.

seeing is believing 

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 11, 2011, 06:13:36 AM
If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead what happened to the body? Is there another explanation that can actually fit the time frame,the landscape,political backdrop, and other logistics that can explain what happened? Is it Possible that perhaps they got the wrong tomb? Is it possible they were seeing things? Is it possible that Jesus just passed out and somehow revived in the tomb? Or is it possible that somehow the body was stolen? Or did it happen just as they said and He actually rose from the dead?

Going on. Is it possible that somehow they actually just got the wrong tomb? Taking a look at the gospel accounts and also what the historians themselves do not dispute can we not get a better picture?
First the Romans were not having an easy time in Judea. Pilot was already dealing with many different factions. The last thing he needed was another faction.
So much so that he gave into the chief priests demands and put Jesus to death.
The chief priests and Sadducees did everything they could to end this sect.  They spied on Him and sent out many to try and trap Him in both word and deed.
They were also aware of the claim that Jesus made that He would rise from the dead in 3 days. They were so concerned they went to Pilot and requested a guard to be placed at the tomb.
So it implies that both the Romans and Chief priests knew where the tomb was located.

The tomb itself was a new tomb. Most likely at least one of the women would have helped in wrapping the body after it was placed into the tomb.
So what does this mean? In order for them to get the wrong tomb it would have had to look a lot like the tomb into which Jesus was laid.
It also would have had to be very close to the same area. Jerusalem at that time was not very large in fact the old city was only about 1 square kilometer.
Not a very large area in deed. So the women go to the tomb somehow they get the wrong tomb and tell the disciples that the body has been taken.
(Even at this time they were not yet saying that Jesus rose from the dead) Now you then have 2 disciples going to the tomb and somehow they also get the wrong tomb.
It is also recorded that the guards went to the priests and also claim that the body was gone. The priest go so far as to bribe the guards and relay the story to Pilot.
Less then 2 months later they are in the very city that these things took place the disciples are claiming that Jesus rose from the dead.
Which then bodes the question if somehow they got the wrong tomb why did not either the priests or the Romans ever squelch the claim
if they both knew where the tomb was and it was in their best interest , why did they not just show them the correct tomb?
Even those who did not believe the story at that time never made the claim that the body was not missing.
In light of this i can only conclude that they got the right tomb and somehow the body went missing.