Quote from: BillieTex on September 05, 2011, 08:58:19 PM
I have done without a doc for years, low doses and subtle changes. but on may last blood test they found my liver enzymes are elevated, i don't drink much - none right now. the hormones may or may not be a factor, but.... after these years I'm hoping i didn't do any damage. 

How high was your ALT? There are a few things that can cause it to rise. Monitoring prolactin is probably one of the biggest things to watch for along with ALT.

goto http://www.thelesbiantherapist.com/  michelle is wonderful. Online skype sessions for 1hr intervals. She will issue your HRT letter with all compliance. Been a godsend for me.....

Hi Pebbles

You said:

Quote from: pebbles on September 05, 2011, 05:00:12 AMI disagree with sarah B it's pointless to even fight facial and body hair without your T level begin suppressed. It's just not a battle that can be won. its Like fighting the tide.

To a certain extent I would agree with you.  However, you don't have to be on hormones for electrolysis to work, because electrolysis kills the follicle, although the same follicle might need several treatments depending on the growth cycle.  So having your testosterone levels reduced probably helps to a certain extent,  for example reducing the growth rate, density, colour or even the thickness of the hair.

Existing facial hair may only be slightly affected by anti-androgen's depending on the age of the individual, genetics or ethnicity of the person.  Those taking anti-androgen's may have better results with electrolysis or laser hair removal than those who are not.  However, I have not seen any studies done in regards to this issue.  If testosterone levels are within the female range then new facial hairs will not grow, if one is still young enough.

Warm regards
Sarah B

Waiting additional YEARS on getting your homones are additional YEARS that testosterone can destroy your body. At age 15, I was androgynous with a full head of hair and no hair on my body. At age 20, I had a receding hairline, facial hair AND body hair. That's why waiting 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 years is a big deal. Sure when your 40, most of the damage that will be done is already done. But when your in your young 20s, additional years can greatly alter things.

  These are harder times.  It is hard to get consistent answers of HRT regimen from doctor to doctor as seen by the anecdotal stories I've read here on Susan's.  Many types of estrogen, T blockers, etc have their own effects and side effects.  Elective therapy and elective surgery is getting harder to get in these times in the US due to doctor shortages. 
  My story is not only GID but the Demosthenes's sword of prostate cancer.  This cancer kills only 15-17% of men who have it.  The rest die of other age related problems.  The last doctor I went to did not want to diagnose cancer of any kind until I got insurance.  I did get insurance, but in the second month, it was worthless for that and I was not notified of the change in the plan.  A waste of money for one on a fixed income. 
  I had enough and started medicating myself.  The prostate PSA went way down and my GID anxiety has dropped.  But, I've been on HRT only 9 1/2 months.  Who knows what the outcome would be on month 12 or to month 36 of this regimen in my body.  Due to my age and situation, I am willing to take the risk as others in my age group with various other ailments.   
  Wether or not your script and therapist are legit, this is dangerous monkey business, not only to your health sandpoint, but to your social status which can cause a negative feedback.  Both of those have been known to be deadly and maiming.  Be careful!
  Joelene

To be honest, I get somewhat bothered by people who have the resources and means to go about HRT the "legal" way but are too impatient

If you have the resources and means, do it the right way and don't complain... There are many who can barely make ends meet and are struggling to begin with let alone throw in regular Dr. visits and tests and such

I do not condone self medicating, but I can understand why some people do it... Just don't let impatient behavior be the reasoning behind it

Hi Steph

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with what you said

Quote from: StephI can't understand why folks are so impatient and willing to take unnecessary risks, that may jeopardize transition.

When I had my epiphany nearly 23 years ago, I was (and I'm still am) a very patient person.  I virtually knew absolutely nothing about the process.   When I got my second letter from my psychiatrist, he virtually made me wait another 9 months before I could have my surgery.  I would have had my surgery straight away and with out any counseling and I still would not have thought twice about the ramifications.  So in fact I was patient, I had to wait 2 years.

However that is irrelevant, its not about being impatient, because it is imperative that one is allowed to change unimpeded because of the ramifications resulting from the medical condition.  Yes, one does need to consult the doctors to obtain good advice about what to do, however when they place unnecessary obstacles in ones path then one is bound to find alternative means of achieving what one wants and if that means taking unnecessary risks then so be it.

Quote from: StephWhy do you care about how long it takes, 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 years.

Just like Ann Onymous and Samantharz, I did not want to waste another moment of my life, I wanted to function just like any other female and for 30 years of not being able to do just that was long enough in that sense.  In addition I had 15 years of testosterone damaging my body.  I have seen what it has done to my brothers and thank my lucky stars that I was able to get my hormones straight away.

Quote from: StephI find it amazing that folks can be so short sighted "I want it now", "Why should I have to follow rules".  "Why should I wait", "I don't trust Dr's".  Give it a break.

Absolutely not, humans have been pushing the boundaries of knowledge since time immemorial and they have been doing it with the questions you have mentioned above.  Just because a doctor, surgeon or psychiatrist said this is what it is, does not necessarily mean what they say is correct.  If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a given subject area, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority.

Quote from: StephHRT is only a part of transition, and some would say unnecessary.

HRT is absolutely necessary to treat our medical condition, teenagers need it to prevent the wrong sex characteristics from developing.  Those that are transitioning need HRT to prevent the current hormones from producing the effects that they are currently doing to the body.  For those that are post op,  hormones are essential because the human body needs hormones to be able to function properly.  Not taking hormones will result in health issues that are a lot more serious than the risks of taking the hormones one needs.  I know, because I had health issues because I was not taking my hormones.  I would seriously question somebody who said, "that HRT is unnecessary".

Quote from: StephOne thing is for sure when it comes time for SRS/GRS the surgeon will have a whole bunch of stuff he/she expects their patients to follow and guess what folks... If you don't comply, you ain't getting the surgery.

Yes  you are right, however the requirements from surgeons is very limited in a sense.  Minimum of one surgery letter in some cases, usually two, (I had 3 letters),  blood tests and may be one or two other requirements depending upon the surgeon.  These conditions are not as onerous as the requirements that are required from some doctors and therapists.  In my case it was just letters and blood work.  Which I think was reasonable.

Quote from: StephYes it can drive folks to distraction, but really you are talking about your future.

Yes you are right, it is about my future.  It's my body, my life and it was what I always wanted.  I never thought about what I was doing once, let alone twice.  As Ann said, I also find it totally abhorrent that certain members of our society or conditions can dictate on how we should live our lives.  You only have to read some of the posts in this thread to see what is happening to some of the members that run up against these restrictions.

Warmest regards
Sarah B

Quote from: Sarah B on September 06, 2011, 07:06:15 AM
Hi Steph

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with what you said

When I had my epiphany nearly 23 years ago, I was (and I'm still am) a very patient person.  I virtually knew absolutely nothing about the process.   When I got my second letter from my psychiatrist, he virtually made me wait another 9 months before I could have my surgery.  I would have had my surgery straight away and with out any counseling and I still would not have thought twice about the ramifications.  So in fact I was patient, I had to wait 2 years.

However that is irrelevant, its not about being impatient, because it is imperative that one is allowed to change unimpeded because of the ramifications resulting from the medical condition.  Yes, one does need to consult the doctors to obtain good advice about what to do, however when they place unnecessary obstacles in ones path then one is bound to find alternative means of achieving what one wants and if that means taking unnecessary risks then so be it.

Just like Ann Onymous and Samantharz, I did not want to waste another moment of my life, I wanted to function just like any other female and for 30 years of not being able to do just that was long enough in that sense.  In addition I had 15 years of testosterone damaging my body.  I have seen what it has done to my brothers and thank my lucky stars that I was able to get my hormones straight away.

Absolutely not, humans have been pushing the boundaries of knowledge since time immemorial and they have been doing it with the questions you have mentioned above.  Just because a doctor, surgeon or psychiatrist said this is what it is, does not necessarily mean what they say is correct.  If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a given subject area, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority.

HRT is absolutely necessary to treat our medical condition, teenagers need it to prevent the wrong sex characteristics from developing.  Those that are transitioning need HRT to prevent the current hormones from producing the effects that they are currently doing to the body.  For those that are post op,  hormones are essential because the human body needs hormones to be able to function properly.  Not taking hormones will result in health issues that are a lot more serious than the risks of taking the hormones one needs.  I know, because I had health issues because I was not taking my hormones.  I would seriously question somebody who said, "that HRT is unnecessary".

Yes  you are right, however the requirements from surgeons is very limited in a sense.  Minimum of one surgery letter in some cases, usually two, (I had 3 letters),  blood tests and may be one or two other requirements depending upon the surgeon.  These conditions are not as onerous as the requirements that are required from some doctors and therapists.  In my case it was just letters and blood work.  Which I think was reasonable.

Yes you are right, it is about my future.  It's my body, my life and it was what I always wanted.  I never thought about what I was doing once, let alone twice.  As Ann said, I also find it totally abhorrent that certain members of our society or conditions can dictate on how we should live our lives.  You only have to read some of the posts in this thread to see what is happening to some of the members that run up against these restrictions.

Warmest regards
Sarah B

And I think we'll continue to disagree, but that's what this is all about, each of us has reasons for doing what we do, and we'll rationalize those reasons come hell or high water.

I guess it maybe comes down to "Why should I care", why should I give a damn about what others do?  Maybe we should revisit the policy here at Susan's on self medication, after all the subject comes up every time something is not happening fast enough for someone, and the arguments for and against are virtually the same every time the issue comes up.

So maybe Susan's/staff should start a new resource section dealing with self medication; how to obtain hormones, the recommended doses to get one going, tips on how to detect signs of trouble, etc, etc.  I imagine that there are quite a few folks here who are experts on this and based on their own results and experience, would be able to help those seeking self medication by providing sound tips and advice.  Hey how about a topic for the Wiki.

Ah but I jest...

It would be interesting to see whether the self-med camp tended to be comprised of the younger crowd with the 'let the doctor's timeline run its course' crowd being the late-in-life transsexuals.

Oh, and my support for those who elect to self-med comes as a long-term post-op who did not self-med only because of the difficulty in doing so 25-30 years ago.  I was scared to drive across the border to Mexico and there was no such thing as ordering over the internet since, well, the internet didn't exist.  Fortunately I did find an endo that believed in the use of 'informed consent' which helped overcome the other obstacles the 'gender specialists' kept putting forth... 

Using a doctor is usually the best way to go but there are few doctors willing to truely educate themselves on treating us so they often don't know much more than we do. Even endocrinologist don't really know that much about medical transitioning. I doubt that it's even brought up in their training. Their primary focus is anything but transsexuals. Make sure you are educated in all this because NO ONE is going to be an advocate for you except yourself.

Even so called "HRT specialist" that are supposed to be specialists in trans medicine are not always the most knowledgeable. They often get into a rythem of prescribing the same protocal for everyone and don't want to deviate from what they are used to. I find it odd that protocals from the so called "experts", can vary by as much as 100%! If you are going to go through the developement that a teenager goes through, you need the hormone levels of a teenager. I bet FTM's really get shortchanged on the amount of T that is prescribed since the docs want to give guys with low T, just enough T to keep them at the low end of NORMAL which can vary about 300%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Estradiol_during_menstrual_cycle.png



Docs are not gods and their biggest value in todays information age is their access to tests and pharmacies. Do your own homework and DEMAND appropriate treatment!!!

Quote from: Steph on September 06, 2011, 09:12:30 AM
And I think we'll continue to disagree, but that's what this is all about, each of us has reasons for doing what we do, and we'll rationalize those reasons come hell or high water.

I guess it maybe comes down to "Why should I care", why should I give a damn about what others do?  Maybe we should revisit the policy here at Susan's on self medication, after all the subject comes up every time something is not happening fast enough for someone, and the arguments for and against are virtually the same every time the issue comes up.

So maybe Susan's/staff should start a new resource section dealing with self medication; how to obtain hormones, the recommended doses to get one going, tips on how to detect signs of trouble, etc, etc.  I imagine that there are quite a few folks here who are experts on this and based on their own results and experience, would be able to help those seeking self medication by providing sound tips and advice.  Hey how about a topic for the Wiki.

Ah but I jest...

I think that would be a great "harm reduction" strategy but I don't see it happening here. I think it should be openly discussed where people have a better chance of getting good information rather than being left to the wolves on the wide open net.

Please do it the right way. With a doctor, you will get blood tests, lab work, etc to make sure it is very effective dosages ...and, not to mention, safer.

People who say self medicating is fine is simply not true. I can give you names of three girls who stroked out from self medicating.

Also, it is MUCH cheaper to go through a doc. 4 dollars  per 3 month supply of AA and 4 dollars per 3 month for estrogen through the right way versus about 250 bucks for three months the wrong way.

Quote from: Annah on September 06, 2011, 09:53:34 AM
Also, it is MUCH cheaper to go through a doc. 4 dollars  per 3 month supply of AA and 4 dollars per 3 month for estrogen through the right way versus about 250 bucks for three months the wrong way.

Not entirely true. Perhaps if you have insurance. But for my doctor visit it's $450 for the visit + blood work. Whereas, as you mentioned, about $210 to order them online.

When I began transition, I did self medicate.  But eventually I found a doctor to monitor and prescript HRT.  I have been under a doctors care since then.  Many do start self medicating, but you do it at your own risk.

Advise:  Find a doctor and do it right.  Don't take your health for granted.

Quote from: Annah on September 06, 2011, 09:53:34 AM
Please do it the right way. With a doctor, you will get blood tests, lab work, etc to make sure it is very effective dosages ...and, not to mention, safer.

you presume that those who self-med are not capable of getting blood work performed...there are several places where I can order up any test I want and have a draw done close to the office.  The results would never make it into my medical file if I choose not to disclose to the doctor, which also means the insurance company never sees them  (which, as an aside, was the route I took for the keryotype and related testing). 

Not only is this an option for those without insurance, it also works for those of us who rarely GO to a doctor and thus don't hit deductibles in a given year...it has been close to a decade since I hit my deductible.  Oh, and I can still get reimbursed through a medical savings account for the lab work, which ultimately means it costs me less to get my own bloodwork than to pay the doc to have someone do the draw and saves me the inconvenience of going to their office...

Quote from: Annah on September 06, 2011, 09:53:34 AM
Please do it the right way. With a doctor, you will get blood tests, lab work, etc to make sure it is very effective dosages ...and, not to mention, safer.

People who say self medicating is fine is simply not true. I can give you names of three girls who stroked out from self medicating.

Also, it is MUCH cheaper to go through a doc. 4 dollars  per 3 month supply of AA and 4 dollars per 3 month for estrogen through the right way versus about 250 bucks for three months the wrong way.

I can also find countless links on people that have major problems from doing stupid stuff like silicone injections. If done with common sense and a lot of research, the risks are minimal. I guess a big problem with self medicating is that the average IQ is 100 which means over half of the population has a 100 IQ or less and probably doesn't have the mental horsepower to do this sort of thing. So do we make rules and place major obstacles for everyone because some people screwed it up? I don't think so.  I don't agree with the FDA or anyone else, restricting any medication unless there is a risk of a greater societal harm including the overuse of antibiotics creating super bugs or great potential for addiction or abuse.

Every situation differs. Whats easy for one may not be another. I started it by self med, however now I do have a therapist and an endo. I know what HRT did for me as far as liking me for a change. Good luck............

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 06, 2011, 10:46:42 AM
you presume that those who self-med are not capable of getting blood work performed...there are several places where I can order up any test I want and have a draw done close to the office. 

Many girls i talk to who do self medicate have told me they never bother with blood work. The person who self medicates with blood work or doctor's interpretations is much more rarer than those girls who do self medicate without the bloodwork.

One girl asked me why 200mg of estrogen was so expensive and how come they could not find spiro in 4 mg tablets.

I'm sorry. I will always be in the camp that self medicating is unhealthy. I wont change that. But I wont think less of anyone who does self medicate.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 06, 2011, 10:46:42 AM
you presume that those who self-med are not capable of getting blood work performed...there are several places where I can order up any test I want and have a draw done close to the office.  The results would never make it into my medical file if I choose not to disclose to the doctor, which also means the insurance company never sees them 

You just hit on something key that a lot of people working for a big companies who supply their insurance don't understand. Right now I have no health insurance, I pay for everything out of pocket. Going to therapy and being diagnosed with a mental DISORDER. Anyone who has a hormone letter, also has a letter in their medical history stating they have gender identity DISORDER.

Now I don't know how many of you have tried to GET personal insurance when you have been diagnosed with a mental condition? Good luck with that... That's one of the first questions they ask. So even people that are covered now, if they lose their jobs and end up somewhere where they have to self insure, they are in for a rude surprise. Oh and try not telling them and see what they do if you have a big medical problem, they WILL find this diagnosis, say you lied and deny your claims. Even if it has nothing to do with the problem you are having.

The HRT isn't a problem it's the metal DISORDER part that is an issue.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 06, 2011, 09:47:35 AM
I think that would be a great "harm reduction" strategy but I don't see it happening here. I think it should be openly discussed where people have a better chance of getting good information rather than being left to the wolves on the wide open net.

And I have seen some REALLY bad advice about self medication in online forums. I think it's easy enough to find a reputable sites that explain basic starting doses and what to expect. I also agree you have to educate yourself. My Doc has been doing this for years but he never explained to watch my potassium intake while on spiro nor has he ever checked it. I watch what I eat so assume it's not a problem.

Basically someone who is stupid about self medication will likely be stupid about it even "supervised".