Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 04:10:20 PM
Miniar has made an excellent post.

However...
Val brings up some solid counter points. (imho)

It is however a catch 22 as far as I can tell.

Folks see black and white. If SRS is optional for some trans people then they will surmise that it is optional for all of us.

I have been here since June, and not once have I seen a non op or a pre op say to a Post Op that they did not believe them when they say it was needed for them.

On the other hand, I have seen countless of posts of People questioning a non op or a pre op as a true trans simply because they(the non op or preop) believed SRS is a choice for themselves.

So, I don't think it's a catch 22 and I haven't seen a non or pre op questioning the legitimacy of a trans because she felt the need for SRS.

Quote

But I do think that because SRS is optional for some of us, there are those who will consider it optional for all of us.

Again, I have only seen it the other way around. If you can post me some links on non and pre ops questioning a post op sincerity of being a really real transsexual woman because she had SRS with the need to have it done, I would gladly admit my assumptions as being wrong.

QuotePersonaly when I read Annah post that for her SRS is optional and she is getting it anyways, I lost it.
To me SRS is a life afirming and vital surgery for my sanity and quality of life. I am stuck in a perpetual state of hell. I can not imagine SRS to be optional. I dont understand how it can be optional at all.

No one is asking you to accept it. Nor even understand it. However, you have to respect it. And it goes the other way around.

Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 06:26:55 PM

Again, I have only seen it the other way around. If you can post me some links on non and pre ops questioning a post op sincerity of being a really real transsexual woman because she had SRS with the need to have it done, I would gladly admit my assumptions as being wrong.

This part of your post made no sense when compared to the part of my text you quoted.

My point was that I fear that society at large is going to see SRS as optional for all transpeople because it is optional for some people. It is no fault of anyone here on this site. It is human nature that people seek one size fits all cures.

If society at large believes that SRS is cosmetic then they will never be willing to have it payed for on most insurance plans.

Obviously for some of us it is a choice. You are a prime example. The genie is out of the bottle.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 05:57:56 PM
Well, there have been many things left out of this discussion but none of us will persuade the other, thats for sure. So why bother. I do have some questions for those of you declaring women's surgery is a choice and wish to vent some myself, since this is the vent forum and the purpose of this thread.

When someone vents the same exact thing for their entire current account post count, it gets really really old. You present your argument then you say you are leaving. Then you repeat this process for two straight days. Seriously, if someone looked at your post history on this account I wonder what the percentage is of your posts talking about this same issue.

You are effectively beating a dead horse when you post the same thing again and again and again and again.

QuoteI do not nor ever will understand the premise that women's SRS is a choice and not a medical intervention.

I think we pretty much understand that.

QuoteAnnah, you still have not stated why you are having SRS, if it is not needed? Please let us know why you are correcting your body? Why do you want a binary body (not need, according to you) ...to correct it, maybe,  so that it is congruent? To have a functional part that matches your identity? It sounds hypocritical that you are having surgery denied by others and calling it a choice, you dont really need it. Many women here who cannot get surgery, except lucky you. And here you are telling them that it is a choice. That doesnt make them feel too good, Im sure. I had a PM this evening from a woman in tears on reading what you wrote, because she needs it and cannot have it. She wrote in despair and grief over what you wrote. A member here.

First of all you are in NO position or authority to dictate morality to me. Let's get that out int he open shall we? Your pretentious "innocent" posting to hide your spiteful comments does not work on me.

Now, that we have that part settled.

Yes. I chose to get SRS. You REALLY need to get over it. I UNDERSTAND that some people HAVE to have SRS.

You are asking why I want SRS? Considering the nature of the surgery it is not difficult to figure out "why."  Also, I stated it in a post earlier in this thread. Reread it please.

Nowhere did I state it was a CHOICE for everyone. Again, Reread my earlier post. If it doesn't make sense to you, reread one more time.

QuoteFor you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible. A surgery that can provide a fully functional vagina to correct their body. If you cannot desire that functioning body to your female peers, what does that say about you? Why are you weighing in on women's surgery?

Grow up. No one said that. You're twisting words again.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 06:36:16 PM
This part of your post made no sense when compared to the part of my text you quoted.

My point was that I fear that society at large is going to see SRS as optional for all transpeople because it is optional for some people. It is no fault of anyone here on this site. It is human nature that people seek one size fits all cures.

If society at large believes that SRS is cosmetic then they will never be willing to have it payed for on most insurance plans.

Obviously for some of us it is a choice. You are a prime example. The genie is out of the bottle.

Ill repost it for you

no i dont think so.

They asked very little questions about it because I am covered. They only asked who I was having the surgery with, checked to see if it fell in their policy coverage area, asked about aftercare, etc. They never asked me "so do you HAVE to have this or is it just one of those things. Based on my therapy reports sent to them, they knew it was a choice for me.

And insurance companies do realize the fact that SRS is necessary and a must for some trans people so they aren't going to judge coverage on a person by person basis in the US if you fall under corporate coverage guidelines of have the coverage in your contract.

If SRS is covered at your company and you meet the requirements of the insurance company for SRS (which they use WPATH) then you will have the surgery.

I worked at Liberty Mutual. I seen the behind the scenes of this.

The only thing you have to really fight for is disability insurance coverage if your company has it because many disability companies has srs listed as an elective and some do not (depending on your company's contract of disability insurance)....which is different than medical insurance.

Live and let live always.

Otherwise:

    "First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."


As transsexual and transgender people we are high on any eventual lists. Do not ever kid ourselves regarding that. Others of us also happen to be Jews, Muslims, Communists, and so on which can only make things far worse of course.

Solidarity is all, without it we are well and truly truly ->-bleeped-<-ed.

Grow the ->-bleeped-<- up, FFS.

still doesnt adress the part I quoted in the context of the part I was quoted in...

Ontario's public healthcare system covers SRS. It does not require all transsexual women to undergo the procedure, nor is the procedure recommended in all cases. That's what optional means - required for some, but not others. Optional is not the same as elective.

That social conservative ->-bleeped-<-s use non-ops to argue against coverage is neither here nor there. If there were no non-ops they'd find something else to bitch at us about.

Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 06:26:55 PM
I have been here since June, and not once have I seen a non op or a pre op say to a Post Op that they did not believe them when they say it was needed for them.

I'm a pre-op, but I've had a non-op tell me that, and more recently than June. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 16, 2011, 07:00:03 PM
Ontario's public healthcare system covers SRS. It does not require all transsexual women to undergo the procedure, nor is the procedure recommended in all cases. That's what optional means - required for some, but not others. Optional is not the same as elective.

That social conservative ->-bleeped-<-s use non-ops to argue against coverage is neither here nor there. If there were no non-ops they'd find something else to bitch at us about.

I'm a pre-op, but I've had a non-op tell me that, and more recently than June. There is plenty of blame to go around.

If a non op has said to you, they are just as ignorant as the ones who say the opposite. Sorry you had to go through that.

And many of you seem to be missing the distinction between 'optional' and 'elective'..

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2011, 07:32:04 PM
And many of you seem to be missing the distinction between 'optional' and 'elective'..

enlighten me

Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 08:12:31 PM
enlighten me

Optional means you do not need the surgery but for preventative measure or to avoid distress in the future, insurance will cover this surgery procedure. An example is a deviated septum or your tonsils.

An elective surgery means that the surgery is not needed under average conditions and will not be covered as one does not HAVE to have the surgery to make themselves healthier.  An example of this is botox injections and plastic surgery for the sole purpose to look more attractive per the patients' viewpoints (not to be confused with plastic surgery needed to reconstruct surfaces damaged from birth defects or accidents.

That is the difference between Optional and Elective. And this is the reason why SRS is covered who has the coverage whether or not one feels the need to have to get SRS or sees it as a choice and still wishes to get it done.

I liked reading Miniar's original post. It's good to hear that this problem is being discussed.

For the record, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on whether SRS is necessary or optional for a transwoman.

I do know that top surgery for me is not optional. Having breasts seriously interferes with my quality of life, and impairs my functioning as a productive adult in our society. Science and medicine are pretty much on board with the fact that sometimes surgical modification is necessary. Societal acceptance of that fact or any other regarding transsexuals will come slowly.

I also feel like the difference between necessary and optional is getting hyped up a bit much. My insurance won't pay for some necessary things and will pay for some optional things. I spent years paying for a surgery for my daughter that saved her life, and the fact that it was officially "necessary" didn't make the bill collectors more understanding. I had a bone sticking out the side of my foot once, and even with coverage it took me a few days to get surgery approved and arranged, and by then it was infected.

Whether or not a person needs something often has no bearing on whether or not they can get it.

Quote from: Annah on October 16, 2011, 08:21:16 PM
Optional means you do not need the surgery but for preventative measure or to avoid distress in the future, insurance will cover this surgery procedure. An example is a deviated septum or your tonsils.

An elective surgery means that the surgery is not needed under average conditions and will not be covered as one does not HAVE to have the surgery to make themselves healthier.  An example of this is botox injections and plastic surgery for the sole purpose to look more attractive per the patients' viewpoints (not to be confused with plastic surgery needed to reconstruct surfaces damaged from birth defects or accidents.

That is the difference between Optional and Elective. And this is the reason why SRS is covered who has the coverage whether or not one feels the need to have to get SRS or sees it as a choice and still wishes to get it done.

Pretty much what I was going to say, but so much more eloquently..

And yeah, for my purposes I'm not differentiating between optional and elective. Medicaid often doesn't either. I don't when I'm paying out of pocket. Preventative medicine is cheaper and smarter in the long run, but often just isn't on the table.

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2011, 08:40:53 PM
Pretty much what I was going to say, but so much more eloquently..

it's from years of working with a Medical Insurance Company lol.

Whether or not a person needs something often has no bearing on whether or not they can get it.

True that.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 05:57:56 PMFor you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible.

"You FTM people?" Thank you. That makes me feel so included and welcomed.

I just took another look at this thread up to the point where you said this, and I found exactly three posts by FTMs. One of them was mine.

Not a single one says anything NEAR what you just posted here. I sure ask heck didn't. If you think that I did, or that Silver or Miniar did, then you need to reread their posts until you see what they actually said.

Dear, sweet, beautiful Valerie...I don't want to fight, but I think that in some cases, you might be seeing things that aren't there. So I'm calling you on this.

Sometimes I start reading a book or article, and I have a preconception about the work that interferes with my accurate reading. I try not to do this, but it happens occasionally; maybe someone told me about the book, and that got me off on the wrong foot. As I'm reading, I unconsciously omit a word here or there so that the text meets my expectations, but eventually I realize that the person is saying something other than what I expected them to say. I have to start over and read more carefully, without preconceptions. At some point, I realize that I went in with a bias.

Maybe that is what you're doing, Valerie. I can see that this issue is hurting you, big time. I am sorry for that. But I don't think everyone is saying what you think they're saying. A few might be, but most aren't. And you seem to think that most are. You zoom in on the FTMs here. Did they/we really say what you are claiming? Where? Please take another look.

I don't think you're the type of person to intentionally misunderstand someone. I don't think you're the type of person to pretend that someone said something they didn't. I think you're hurting so much that you're unintentionally misreading posts and finding enemies where there are none. If they're being pretty clear in their writing, then the misinterpretation is on you.

And, forgive me, but it would really help if you didn't lump "you FTM people" into one giant conglomerate mess when you want to challenge our ideas We are all different, and we say different things. If you want to challenge or discuss what a particular FTM said, then please be specific about who he is, and quote him directly.

I find it sadly amusing that a post by Miniar complaining about lack of understanding and respect degenerates into the exact thread he was complaining about. Miniar is a man I have worked with and have enormous respect for the way he presents himself and his opinions. When he speaks, his words are carefully thought through.

I think most of the people on the thread know me pretty well. I think I'm well tolerated. We need to understand the concept of a difference in opinion. All of us. Sometimes a difference in opinion needs to be rested until a logical argument can be thought through and presented. Shouting louder does not change the view; it increases the noise. I see validity in all the arguments, but that does not settle differences in view point. Possibly there is no solution to such discussion, that does not invalidate the discussion, but it rings warning bells that we may need to agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong in that.  It is pretty normal really.

I have become quite upset by a number of recent posts. There seems to be a discord, not particularly in this thread, but in several threads where people seem to be more interested in trading insults than valid discussion. I know it tends to go in cycles but it is annoying.

My ten cents worth

Cindy

Lol but at least he called it, right? He knew it would probably go this way.

Not to make light of it. We shouldn't fight.

I agree Cindy

I've been watching this thread and the others Miniar was talking about lately but haven't had much to say. Now I do.

I am good friends with a girl who is on the fence between genderqueer and MTF. Her and I do not always see eye to eye on things because she has the view that society needs to learn to accept us and we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves. In many ways I agree with that but disagree because I know that while they should learn to in the meantime they don't. We agree to disagree usually like Cindy sorta suggested.

It's great that some guys and gals have managed to get their surgery covered even if they could live without it. In some ways I'm a little jealous but in other ways I'm glad that they can be comfortable with that, I wish I could be too. Some people cannot do surgery for family reasons, health reasons, money reasons, and other ones. Who are we to judge them as less trans? (Not saying anyone here did, just have kinda seen that tone lately) I just don't understand why anyone has to fight about it.

I loved this forum from the second I found it because many of you have become a second family to me. You were all here when I needed someone to help me. So not to sound like the stereotypical middle child (anyone ever seen Charmed? I sorta feel like a male version of Piper from while Prue was still around) but really guys, can't we just get along? I love seeing the debates, I love hearing everyones opinions but must we fight about it?

BTW Miniar, dude you're awesome. Seriously.