I hope you are not a Big Ender (Little Enders Unite!)

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 04:53:54 PM
Kia Ora Julie,

Because they're mentally unbalanced nutjobs and I'm being serious when I say this....

Metta Zenda

So you're saying maybe this condition belongs in the DSM?

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
So you're saying maybe this condition belongs in the DSM?

Kia Ora Julie,

Most definately ! Let's face it who in their 'right' mind would go out of their way to  kill people, believing that a 'being' whose existence can not be proved, wants/orders they to do it...

Yes definately a case for the 'mental health professional' one who specialises in 'schizophrenia' ! 

Metta Zenda

Oh, I'm not going to stop with killing - I think a lot of basic/general religious stuff should be in the DSM.

Julie,
I cannot speak for others as the mess of so-called christianity is far from being Christianity.

For me my faith is very important as according to my beliefs I have only one chance to get it right. After that I answer for what I believed and how I lived. Then comes eternity where it is far to long to be wrong. The idea of flames continually burning me as I fall endlessly and worms covering my face is just too fearful for me to take salvation without care.

Also, I know some wait to see miracles to believe like doubting Thomas.
I have seen the miracles because I believe. They verify my faith just as written and after believing and seeing I find it foolish for me to turn back.
The Lord has been too good to me all these years.
I freely admit I don't deserve it but am thankful for it.

I do not believe in trying to convert others beyond what the scriptures say. That is that Jesus said the fields were white already to harvest and that the parts of the Lord's body were written in the Book of Life before we ever were born. Those whom are meant to hear will hear when Christians do not deny the Lord or hide their faith.

I do not believe in killing either for the faith. The Lord said his kingdom was not of this world. If it was his servants would fight. Since it is not of this world we are supposed to be as David said strangers and pilgrims in this world.
As written Come out from among them and be separate. Not teaching people to covet the world we are supposed to be willing to forsake.
But that does not bring in tithes and offerings. Not popular.

From what I read the letters of the new testament were to show how the church should live. Not the non-believing folk outside the faith.

In conclusion that is why my faith is important to me and how I feel about trying to convert outsiders.

The Spirit of God will lead those whom are written in the Book of Life to repentance and then lead them to a church where they can grow in their faith. The same Spirit will verify their faith with signs following.
No need to fight or kill.

Also, I know some wait to see miracles to believe like doubting Thomas

Thomas made sainthood despite the doubt.

I like what this priest has to say...

Quote from: Del on December 10, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
Julie,
I cannot speak for others as the mess of so-called christianity is far from being Christianity.


No need to fight or kill.

Kia Ora Del,

I've read some of your posts and respect your peaceful position and  'harmless' beliefs...However how would you describe the 'mental stability' of those who believe killing others is justified -and that their god would approve of it ?

Personally, out of compassion [and if I could] I would have them sanctioned/sectioned  and made to undergo a psychiatric assessment [ a similar assessment  to what many of us here had/have to go through-to prove our sanity ]...

Metta Zenda  

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 02:24:03 PM
Kia Ora Del,

I've read some of your post and respect your peaceful - harmless beliefs...However how would you describe the 'mental stability' of those who believe killing others is justified -and that their god would approve of it ?

Personally, out of compassion [and if I could] I would have them sanctioned/sectioned  and made to undergo a psychiatric assessment [ a similar assessment  to what many of us here had/have to go through-to prove our sanity so to speak]...

Metta Zenda

I would have to add the need to cause harm, physical or otherwise, the need to pressure others, the whole going out and converting process.  None of that should be socially acceptable.  Imagine sending out throngs of people in an attempt to convert Packer fans into Bears fans.  Of course we laugh at that but isn't it the same as trying to convert people to your faith?

BTW, the movie that prompted this line of thought was "Agora."  It's a Hollywood adaptation about Hyaptia of Alexandria, the female Roman philosopher, mathematician, scholar and teacher.  Yes, a woman actually teaching men.  According to Socrates Scholasticus, Cyril, the Christian leader of Alexandria at the time, was jealous of the popularity and respect she enjoyed.  The Roman prefect Orestes, often sought her out for counsel.  Orestes had converted to christianity, Hypatia refused.  Finally a band of christian thugs brutally tortured and murdered her.

"...it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them."
Socrates Scholasticus

While the Pagans had no problem with the position Hypatia had earned in Alexandria, the Christians did.  And they responded by brutally murdering her.

That someone died for refusing to convert to christianity didn't surprise me.  The movie was more a reminder of just how misogynistic christianity is.  And the brutality...  I just can't see how anyone could do the things they did and say they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Zenda, you're right, this is a mental disorder. 

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 11:38:26 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

Do you mean in the name of religion or members of a religion ? There's a big difference, for example if you see Buddhism as a 'religion' like many in the West do, then the religion itself has NEVER been involved in any kind of atrocity... And if one refers to the second world war and the Japanese, again it was not the Buddhist religion that went to war- * The Japanese people went to war for the 'Emperor' whom many believed to be a living god ...Plus one must remember in Japan there are also followers of animist religions - Shinto comes to mind...

Metta Zenda

I would say both. In every religion people killed that were in a religion and also in the name of a particular religion.  Buddhism was also part of my "every religion that has killed or waged war." 

For example, Buddhist astrologers had 500 men, women and children killed and buried in order that their Capitol be saved. During the British occupation of that region, the practice of buddhist related sacrifices were put to a stop.

Records of Buddhist related sacrifices can be seen all the way up to 1850.

Quote from: Del on December 10, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
In conclusion that is why my faith is important to me and how I feel about trying to convert outsiders.

The Spirit of God will lead those whom are written in the Book of Life to repentance and then lead them to a church where they can grow in their faith. The same Spirit will verify their faith with signs following.
No need to fight or kill.

So do you believe those that reject Jesus as the Son of God are going to hell?

That's the part the rubs me raw when it comes to some people in Christianity. It's like "it's our way or the highway." Then some will say "I still love and care for you but if you die not knowing Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will be either wiped out of existence or sent to hell.

This is one of the main reasons why I went to progressive Christianity. I couldn't stand it when people "tried to save souls."

The Bible says "For God so loves the WORLD."  Not "For God so loves those who sent a telepathic link of saying 'ok I believe in you now'."

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 02:08:14 PM
I like what this priest has to say...

That's John Shelby Spong.

I love that man. I had coffee with him five years ago and I am trying to get him to go a lecture at my Seminary.

You should read his books. They are mind blowing and his ideas are dead on.

Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 05:03:14 PM
So do you believe those that reject Jesus as the Son of God are going to hell?

I grew up in a Catholic environment but the first time I heard if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God you won't be saved I was in my 30's.  My mom told me after she joined a born again cult.  Then I asked her, "What if Jesus was just a man who man made into a deity?"  Naturally, she was offended just by the thought.  I think she also told me I could go to hell for even thinking that.  It reminded me of the political leaders through history who jailed, tortured and/or executed anyone who spoke against them.

For me, any faith that encouraged you to say to others you will go to hell if you don't believe what I do isn't a faith sanctioned by god.  At least not the being I grew up learning about.  It baffled me as to how anyone could be so sure of something there was no way to be sure about.  And it upset me that anyone would think they had a duty to convert someone else to their faith.

The entire concept of "I need you to believe what I believe" seems borne out of insecurity.  When someone is secure in their beliefs you don't see them out there actively and aggressively campaigning to get others to believe what they do, unless there is personal gain attached.  And when that campaign includes causing harm to others, no society should ever condone it, no exceptions.

I have asked these questions many times in my life.  I have yet to hear a logical response.

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 12:41:07 PM
Kia Ora Julie,

Most definately !Let's face it who in their 'right' mind would go out of their way to  kill people, believing that a 'being' whose existence can not be proved, wants/orders they to do it...[/b]
Yes definately a case for the 'mental health professional' one who specialises in 'schizophrenia' ! 

Metta Zenda

You mean George Bush?

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 02:08:14 PM
I like what this priest has to say...

He speaks like true followr of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's school of theology

What exactly would be the value of having a faith that is 'the wrong one'? 

Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 04:56:47 PM
I would say both. In every religion people killed that were in a religion and also in the name of a particular religion.  Buddhism was also part of my "every religion that has killed or waged war." 

For example, Buddhist astrologers had 500 men, women and children killed and buried in order that their Capitol be saved. During the British occupation of that region, the practice of buddhist related sacrifices were put to a stop.

Records of Buddhist related sacrifices can be seen all the way up to 1850.

Kia Ora Annah,

Interesting points, and I couldn't agree with you more in regards to human behaviour/nature... However[ there's always an 'however'] unlike other religions/belief systems, nowhere in Buddhist scripture does it advocate war, violence, killing or an 'eye for an eye' mentality  ...

The word Buddha in simple layman's terms means 'awaken' and such an awaken mind is free from the bonds of Samsara...[Therefore every Buddhist's goal is to achieve Nivana-an awaken mind]... So for a person who calls themselves a follower of the Buddha's teaching [The Dharma] to take up arms and kill others is in no way doing this in the name of the 'Buddha' [Buddhism], but their actions are a by-product of  their cultural upbringing/beliefs...

For many countries that had adopted Buddhism as a national belief system, much of their  ancestral cultural beliefs were incorporated with the Buddha's teaching, hence polluting the purity of the Dharma...
So anything that goes against the 5 basic  precepts for lay Buddhists [see below] is not done in the name of Buddhism...But through cultural influence!

The 5  precepts [that Buddhist lay-people are meant to try and up hold] in other word to reframe from  Stealing – Killing – Intoxicants-Lying-Sexual misconduct...[SKILS]...

Humans being humans can at times be easily manipulated and lead, ever those who call themselves Buddhists-Buddhists are human and so was the Buddha[be it a somewhat more 'enlighten' one]...

Hate begets hate...Violence begets violence...Do no harm is what the Buddha taught !

Metta Zenda

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2011, 06:34:03 PM
You mean George Bush?

Kia Ora,

When it comes to George Bush Spacial, I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it.

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 03:02:34 PM
I would have to add the need to cause harm, physical or otherwise, the need to pressure others, the whole going out and converting process.  None of that should be socially acceptable.  Imagine sending out throngs of people in an attempt to convert Packer fans into Bears fans.  Of course we laugh at that but isn't it the same as trying to convert people to your faith?

BTW, the movie that prompted this line of thought was "Agora."  It's a Hollywood adaptation about Hyaptia of Alexandria, the female Roman philosopher, mathematician, scholar and teacher.  Yes, a woman actually teaching men.  According to Socrates Scholasticus, Cyril, the Christian leader of Alexandria at the time, was jealous of the popularity and respect she enjoyed.  The Roman prefect Orestes, often sought her out for counsel.  Orestes had converted to christianity, Hypatia refused.  Finally a band of christian thugs brutally tortured and murdered her.

"...it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them."
Socrates Scholasticus

While the Pagans had no problem with the position Hypatia had earned in Alexandria, the Christians did.  And they responded by brutally murdering her.

That someone died for refusing to convert to christianity didn't surprise me.  The movie was more a reminder of just how misogynistic christianity is.  And the brutality...  I just can't see how anyone could do the things they did and say they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Zenda, you're right, this is a mental disorder.

Kia Ora Julie,

I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality hence why those who believe absurdities will more likely commit atrocities...

And if history is anything to go by, I'm inclined to 'believe' this...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 07:21:52 PM

Kia Ora Julie,

I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality hence why those who believe absurdities will more likely commit atrocities...

And if history is anything to go by, I'm inclined to 'believe' this...

Metta Zenda

Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil