EXACTLY...
passing isnt a choice, its necessery....

I happen to pass easily, and im thankful, body, voice, and behaviour/manerisms.... you dont get things for free in this world... if you cant do a part of passing, work at it, it wont just happen one day...
(i use ... too much ><)

OK. I feel the need to comment here again. You folks are probably quite right about the absolute necessity of passing-- for the transsexual. I'm not so sure that is the case for everyone. I personally know from hard experience that it is much easier to get along in public when you're appearance doesn't cross any gender barriers. As an androgynous-dressing male with near waist length swingy hair in the '80s, I had my first gender prejudice/acceptance experiences. Many people will not socialize at all with persons who seem to cross gender barriers. But I found that if you look good-- that is well groomed/good for you-- and carry yourself with confidence most people treat you with respect and even admiration. Now, I wear long skirts, makeup, heels, and dangly earrings, albeit only when and where I choose. I'm sure I don't always "pass" to everyone, but so far, I've gotten respect.

To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.

Lyric, "Passing is great but self-acceptance is essential". That statement is so true for everyone and not enough people realize it. To expand on my take on self-acceptance/passing is, with self-acceptance comes self confidence, with self confidence comes "passing". Rashelle

i remember two beautiful days i had mid transition. as i was walking  i began to relax more. as i passed people on the street i would turn round to see if they had "read" me. the more i passed, the more i relaxed. by the time i got to the park, i felt like the sun was shining through my every pore. i was glowing. i was alive. i stopped at the bridge and watched the sun dance on the water. two absolutely beautiful days. then i must've gotten read because it all collapsed in on me. for me, passing is important. almost vital.

Quote from: Lyric on April 03, 2007, 02:51:12 PM

...
To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.

For me, this hit the nail on the head. I don't dress to pass. I dress to ease my GD and for the most part it works. Right now that is the only action I can take to acknowledge I am a girl and no longer in denial. This acknowledgement is the most important thing I have ever done. No more illusion that I can live my life as a man. No more wasted effort.

Let's be real here, it takes a lot of money to go from overweight, balding, middle aged man, to passable woman. There is no point in replacing old delusions with new ones. For the time being, I am not passable. This does not mean there is nothing I can about my GD. I can live my life in the role of a woman, but to do this, I have to do something to tell society I beleive I am a woman. Dressing, breastforms, and a wig seem to accomplish this.

And surprisingly, by watching women my age and body type, I get by just fine. But I do this for me. If I don't pass it's not the end of the world and it's certainly better than the alternative.

My wife has encouraged me lately to try to move my transition along. She has agreed to tighten our belts so I can go back to therapy and get my facial hair removed. She beleives we can afford for me to start HRT, which combined with facial hair removal should make me more passable. I have to crunch the numbers, I not sure that there is enough belt to tighten. So, hopefully I will be paying the Gender Center of LA a visit real soon.

I have been full time for almost three years now. Passing or not passing is not really going to change my life that much. Those who know me probably won't notice that much and those who don't know me, I don't notice them too much. For me it's more a matter of feeling like a whole real person and it's unlikely that will happen without SRS.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I admire your courage and conviction.  I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. This is something that you have to do and you're not going to let a little thing like money be your determining factor.

Cindi

Quote from: Lyric on April 03, 2007, 02:51:12 PM
OK. I feel the need to comment here again. You folks are probably quite right about the absolute necessity of passing-- for the transsexual. I'm not so sure that is the case for everyone. I personally know from hard experience that it is much easier to get along in public when you're appearance doesn't cross any gender barriers. As an androgynous-dressing male with near waist length swingy hair in the '80s, I had my first gender prejudice/acceptance experiences. Many people will not socialize at all with persons who seem to cross gender barriers. But I found that if you look good-- that is well groomed/good for you-- and carry yourself with confidence most people treat you with respect and even admiration. Now, I wear long skirts, makeup, heels, and dangly earrings, albeit only when and where I choose. I'm sure I don't always "pass" to everyone, but so far, I've gotten respect.

To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.

Actually this really needs to be stressed more.  Self acceptance is more important than passing.

Is passing important to me.  Yes.  Of course.  But there are certain degrees of passing. There is walking down the street passing and passing in every aspect of life.  The later is not always wanted.  I have no desire for deep stealth or starting a new life.  Some of us do not need nor desire the deep stealth that some feel is necessary. 

I say that there is a degree of passing that all trans people want and desire.  But there is a degree of passing that some of us do not want.  Some want to reach a point of passing that allows for deep stealth.  I want the degree of passing to lesser degree.  But I am a professional activist in DC, and I am transitioning as such.  This means I neither want nor desire a deep degree of stealth, and to some extent I will never pass, because I do not want that.  I will be identified as transsexual no matter what, but that is my choice and I believe my responsibility.  Some of us are in positions that allow us to be advocates.  I am not only trans, but I am also a highly educated professional activist.  Being open about who I am, and not passing to a degree sometimes, will be just as important as passing, because it will allow me to change peoples perceptions and speak to issues that effect transgender people.  This may be a concept that may be hard to grasp to some, but for me it is part of my identity, and it goes beyond my gender identity.  Part of my identity is being an idealist, thinking that one person if motivated can help change peoples perceptions and the system itself. 

Remember there are several women and men out there who do help express the ideas of our community in a very public fashion.  They are changing peoples perceptions of trans people and pushing for our civil rights. Passing fully is not something they want or desire, even when they can achieve it.  I am in the position and I feel that I have the responsibility to be one of these people.   Its not for everybody, but being an activist is part of who I am along with my gender identity.

QuoteRemember there are several women and men out there who do help express the ideas of our community in a very public fashion.  They are changing peoples perceptions of trans people and pushing for our civil rights. Passing fully is not something they want or desire, even when they can achieve it.  I am in the position and I feel that I have the responsibility to be one of these people.   Its not for everybody, but being an activist is part of who I am along with my gender identity.

Amy, Thanks for doing this activism work and for being who you are!

zythyra

I am not doing it yet that much, though I am to some degree.  I can't go into all the details just yet taking I am just begining the process. 

passing can be part of the activism...
at my university, i am the transgender wellfare officer for the students union... and i suprise people.... they expect some rugby player in a dress when they hear transexual... with a broad yorkshire accent... i prove that wrong... im a normal female, and ill tell you now, most think the only things that can be done are boob job, cut the penis off and grow your hair... im changing perspectives by being normal, and makeing people see that we can completely integrate into society. i have actually had 'i cant belive you were born a boy' many times, and  when people see old photos, that changes minds... we need to show we can be just men and women to become accepted as men or women...

passing is very important to me, but.... i have no intention of being "stealth." i am always called ma'am, and have men open doors for me, and all of the usual stuff. and it makes me feel wonderful that i am accepted how i perceive myself, and it always hurt me to be perceived as a man. i think of myself as a woman before i think of my status as a transsexual woman. still, i make no secret to those whom i get to know that i am a transsexual woman. i have always considered myself a girl or a woman, but i also knew my body wasn't right. i lived a lie pretending i was a man, and i am not going to substitute it with others lying about my past. the important issue is, for me at least, to be comfortable with myself. that allows me to be honest and comfortable with others. i don't know if it is right for everyone, but i am just trying to be the best person i can be, and i don't see how that is possible if you aren't open and honest about your past.

i am post-op since you asked...

Quote from: debisl on April 03, 2007, 01:05:09 PM
Passing has been my focal point for so many years. I  mean no offence to anyone, but passing is a must. If you are going to join society as a different sex you better be prepared. If not you will be a lonesome person. Get with the program of what you want to become, and stick to it.

Deb

I see no issue here in that conclusion only because when you consider the alternative of being ostracized or possibly abused, it doesn't make sense to endure such evils. But it should be noted for androgynes like me, whether we are read as males or females, passing doesn't apply, but it does help to be read either or only to ensure our survival as well. It's sad to live in such a savage society where one has to prove one's self to others.

-- Brede

Passing is very important to me

i hope that one day i will look like a woman and that everybody will recognize me as that (hopes)

The ability to pass would be a dream come true. I think at least part of ones self-acceptance is wrapped up in societies acceptance of us, we are after all social creatures.

Interestingly enough being in the gothic scene has made me be mistaken for a woman many times, especially coming from the club or whatnot at night. For any real attempt though, especially during the day I cringe at the thought of the effort required to actually pass full time, even though at some point that is exactly what I would like to do.

It almost seems to me that age of starting transition has alot to do with the ability to pass or at least the effort required in doing so. I guess that means that it is good that I am realizing that I cannot continue my male facade forever at 24 but, even still if I were 16 it would be alot easier. I do have hair down to my waist and naturally have no visible addam's apple already so maybe I am worrying for nothing....

I really applaud the people who have the strength to not obsess about this. I for one certainly don't have that kind of unconditional self acceptance the world would be much, much better if more people did.

I'm a non-op trans girl who has been on HRT for two years now.  For me, passing is secondary to me being myself.  That's not to say that it's not important to me.  But I'm not stealth and never truly will be.  I don't announce my transsexuality to everyone I meet, but if they are good friends, I feel like I owe it to them to tell them.  Especially if there is romance involved.

---

Post Merge: March 13, 2010, 09:16:32 PM

---

Quote from: Hikari on March 02, 2010, 04:44:42 PM

It almost seems to me that age of starting transition has alot to do with the ability to pass or at least the effort required in doing so. I guess that means that it is good that I am realizing that I cannot continue my male facade forever at 24 but, even still if I were 16 it would be alot easier. I do have hair down to my waist and naturally have no visible addam's apple already so maybe I am worrying for nothing....

Well, most changes don't take place between after puberty and before 30.  I doubt it will be much harder to pass whether or not you started at 19 or 30 if you were through with puberty then.  I started at 28 and find it hard to pass as a guy when I try due to the hormones and my natural body language.  I always say that most people can pass.  Body language, voice, the right clothes, and attitude matter more than looks.  Though, there are lots of exceptions.

At this point in time I would have to say passing is extremely important to me.  I would also have to admit that my self-esteem is directly related to passing.  As a truck driver I meet and have to interact with new people on a daily basis, many of them for only that one brief instance ever.  Also though, there are many places I have to interact with the same people on a continuing basis, either with regularity, or perhaps once every few months.  (Truck Stops, regular shippers/recievers, etc...)  Being percieved as a man dressed as a woman has been, and for now will continue to be something that I dread and fear.  Being called "Sir" at a new shipper/reciever or truck stop can completely devistate me for the entire day.  On the flip side, being called "ma'am" at the same places can give my self-esteem such a boost it is indescribable. 

I personaly feel that this is not the best mental attitude to have, and it is something that I am working hard to overcome.  I have long been an advocate of not letting others have any sort of control over me, but yet, as you can see, I have.

Now, all of that being said, I have also come to some eye-opening realizations.  It seems that at the beginning of my transition when I was not very confident, even hesitant in many aspects of appearing as a woman in public I noticed every 'double-take', long stare, wierd look, etc...  Recently I have become much more confident.  I will wear my girly tank top without an overshirt or jacket.  I don't hesitate when giving my name as 'Stephanie' at a shipper/reciever, etc...  And what I have noticed is I do not get the 'double-takes', long stares, etc... as much, or even at all.  It appears to me that just by being more confident internally has changed the way I am percieved externally.  (I am not sure if any of this is based in reality, or if I am just not noticing the old reactions as much or what.  But for now it is my reality, and I am enjoying it.  Though a bit confused by it.)

Have a great day.

(On a side note:  Is there some place I can go to find out what living in 'stealth' actually means?)

Passing will never be an issue for me. At my age and family situation this is something I will only be able to do with close friends and in private. It would be nice to move to a rural location with my 'significant other' where we both can be who we choose to be. Oh Well keep buying a few lottery tickets every week

I think that passing is important to us all but, I have noticed that women come in all sizes and shapes, so are we trying to be perfect, for some of us (including me)it is not going to be. I would like to be passable, walk like a model on a runway and have a sweeter voice instead of sounding like a fog horn. but i do my best. Passing is also important to me also.

Passing means everything to me.

I need to work on my voice more however. It's a difficult thing to do when you have to raise your voice loud enough for someone to hear you and maintain enough control so you still sound feminine. As far as physical looks go- I pass. It's the voice that needs the work these days. It is just grating and annoying when you speak and people look at your disapprovingly and change their smile to a frown- especially when you're in line in customer service.

Things like that just wreck my day.

i used to be at a stage, where passing meant everything to me. it made me feel good, when people would refer to me as "sir", etc. But until i tell close family and friends, im shying away from making people use correct pronouns and such.