What do you think about peoples like Conchita Wurst, Andrej Pejic, Bill Kaulitz and others.

Any step away from the social pressure for men to be almost uniformly masculine and drab can only be a good thing.

Gonna take a while though I fear.

They all are part of our community.  I think it's great that there are more places being made to go to on the gender spectrum.  This is the way Nature made us all.  It's the way society is supposed to be.

What I think Medusa is trying to get at is that these "girly males" are for the most part just feminine gay men and that it could possibly affect all mtf's because society may look at us and think we're also just feminine gay men or gay men to the extreme. Well, some folks already look at us that way.

who cares if they are girly males or effeminate gay men?

Just be yourself.

(I know, it's the MtF section, but I've a comment on this.)

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 08:08:12 AM
who cares if they are girly males or effeminate gay men?

Just be yourself.

I agree with this post.

I think the emergence of men not being so afraid to be feminine, while identifying as male such as Bill Kaulitz, is a good thing because it shows that men can be feminine and not be considered to have something wrong.  Yes, these are celebrities so they get a little bit more leeway than the just the average Joe, but I think it might eventually get to the point where men don't have to be so worried about coming off as "girly" though it'll probably take quite awhile to come that -- if it does.

This isn't the first time men have dressed in a feminine way ('80s hair bands, anyone?) and it's been awhile since that's happened and there is still a bit of a stigma of being a feminine man.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 17, 2012, 08:00:46 AM
What I think Medusa is trying to get at is that these "girly males" are for the most part just feminine gay men and that it could possibly affect all mtf's because society may look at us and think we're also just feminine gay men or gay men to the extreme. Well, some folks already look at us that way.

Fair comment... so do I like them? No

Can we stop them?! No

Would I want to socialize with any of them, AND their hangers on? No, thank you

Does that make me a bigot? I hope not

Do I want to hang out on freak-shows like "Ladies with Beard"...? Definately not either

Does THAT make a bigot? Surely not, as little has 'enjoying' dwarf-throwing and looking and indulging in other freak-stuff, like how about some body-modifications to make a penis look like a split banana?

Does one have to approve?

None needs my approval in any case So, I don't approve.

Oh, ... "is it good for mtf?" NO!

After all we do live in a culture - not a circus... like it or not.

Axélle

I generally don't think about them. I'm my own special little snowflake:)

Extremely binary notions of gender are delusional, IMHO. Therefore, I think this is a sign of people embracing reality which I think is generally good for the acceptance of transsexual and transgendered people and for just less bigotry in general.

Quote from: dalebert on April 17, 2012, 10:20:20 AM
Extremely binary notions of gender are delusional, IMHO. Therefore, I think this is a sign of people embracing reality which I think is generally good for the acceptance of transsexual and transgendered people and for just less bigotry in general.

Worded a little too thesaurus-y for my taste, but I think I agree. c:

Good question.

I don't know if it really affects all MTFs honestly because I think the problem a lot of MTFs have with being accepted is that they aren't very girly despite transitioning.

And then, I think most of the girly MTFs are stealth aside from a few close people.

There is definitely still a huge stigma against men being feminine though. At least, in the non-celebrity world. Most of the adoring fans of these feminine men are girls, and the pressure on men to "man up" was one imposed by other men in the first place. I don't know if those feminine male celebrities have been accepted for who they are so much as admitted into the modern celebrity freak show.

Who knows though 

This issue is no different than some MTF do not like "out trans people" and feel everyone should be stealth so being TG remain hidden from the public. I assume they feel it's easier for them to pass.  Some people were upset and hated Chaz for making being trans visible. I'm sure these same people won't like this either.

Personally I think it's great these people are out there. Just as I'm not like a stealth TS, I'm not like these people either. But diversity is something I accept as being good and applaud them for being themselves.

Given I don't "hang out" with people just because of what they are, that seems like a moot point for me. I don't have any TG friends nor any gay people I am friends with because they are gay. They might happen to be gay but that has nothing to do with why I like them. I've never gone to "gay bars" or hung out in the gay part of town, but I never avoided being around gay people either. I'm not much for segregating people by what they are.

 I don't think that feminine males will make much of a difference to society's view of us. Being trans is very different from just expressing yourself more femininely; body-"mutilation" is serious stuff.

If anything, all it does is get people to ask why we can't be like them. They'll ask us why we have to go so far as to transition when some people are content with looking like feminine males, and dressing femininely.

It will probably confuse the public more, and make it easier for them to see us as men. At first.

... If enough guys were feminine, though, they might receive some collateral understanding.

and I also believe that, as transgender people, we need to be very careful judging effeminate gay men. To the society outside of the trans circles, that would think us as Hypocrites. For those who are trans allies, they would still see us as hypocrites.

What gives us the right to judge men who want to act more girly, when we ourselves, completely bend societies' expectations of gender assumptions?

Especially Andrej and Bill are feminine by nature...in combination with their (gorgeous) feminine looks.

MTF are usually the extreme opposite of those 2: (very) masculine, rugged and formerly straight men, not interested in girly things like fashion, beauty, make up etc like Andrej and Bill but very often interested in gun play, weapons, football, army, computers etcetc.

I find Andrej and Bill completely natural and credible in their feminity whereas I find lots of MTF not so credible in their 'feminity'.

Most people *think* MTF are like Andrej and Bill, but alas, no way.

No way to compare those natural feminine beauties to most (very) masculine MTF...

Most people don't even realise most MTF used to be very masculine, very straight guys not remotely feminine in whatever respect.

Troll alert.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 17, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
Especially Andrej and Bill are feminine by nature...in combination with their (gorgeous) feminine looks.

MTF are usually the extreme opposite of those 2: (very) masculine, rugged and formerly straight men, not interested in girly things like fashion, beauty, make up etc like Andrej and Bill but very often interested in gun play, weapons, football, army, computers etcetc.

I find Andrej and Bill completely natural and credible in their feminity whereas I find lots of MTF not so credible in their 'feminity'.

Most people *think* MTF are like Andrej and Bill, but alas, no way.

No way to compare those natural feminine beauties to most (very) masculine MTF...

Most people don't even realise most MTF used to be very masculine, very straight guys not remotely feminine in whatever respect.

Might I suggest a brush with a smaller tip?  It seems the car-sized one you're using now is a bit inadequate for painting this portrait.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on April 17, 2012, 12:51:17 PM
Might I suggest a brush with a smaller tip?  It seems the car-sized one you're using now is a bit inadequate for painting this portrait.

85% of the MTF population consists of lesbians/ex straight guys (accordingly behaving)

That's car sized tip, yes.

Andrej and Bill would make completely credible women and not for their looks only but also their *natural* feminine behaviour.

Did you pull that out of your arse?

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 17, 2012, 12:57:27 PM
Did you pull that out of your arse?

I love your curly hair, Jen.