Stumbled across a text which said something about the lifespan of "MTF" was 20 years lower than life expectancy of a biologically born a man?
Does anyone know if this is true, and if so why that is?
I've never heard anything about this at Hospital. I think also it is quite relevant to state if this is the case ...

if you put into account suicides, death by violence, self med, then yes...to a certain extent.

I don't know about years but when I did a research paper on transgenders in class last year i looked at suicides and trans.

You have a better chance of surviving the storming of Normandy beach in World War II than being transgender.Now, that has nothing to do with years....but it paints a grim picture.

This is why we must be there for each other.

I think it's mostly perception and that there's not enough evidence to confirm it in stone.  It varies between person and health status, ethnicity, upbringing, economical weath and a few other things.

I surely don't think that when you take an FtM that works out every day and eats healthy vs an obese cisman that drinks beer everynight that the obese cisman will win by default.

Lets also take into consideration the geographical location that one may be placed at where life expectancies are different by location.  Also with possible medical advances people may be able to live longer in the future.  We are seeing that now.

Also if by a slim chance the Mayans have it right it wouldn't matter lol.

Random question but why would this question be in the MtF section if it were about FtM's? o.O

Sorry, I meant MTF. I have modified my post.

If it is that way, its just because we are a high risk group. Stress, violence, suicide, etc. all can add up.   I wonder if it will change though as there is more acceptance and transition becomes a bit easier with easier access to the proper care.

Yes, I'd agree. The lower life expectancy isn't directly related to being trans.

Thanks for the answers, i did think  that it had something with hrt to do.

I don't think HRT itself - if managed by a competent specialist - is a significant risk factor. It IS one, but I think the lower heart/etc. disease risk related to estrogen instead of testosterone would outweight this.

if it's the "living in the home, confined to a bed, not knowing who anyone is" years, then I won't miss em! 

But 20 does seem to be a lot.  I doubt they included suicides in there, just because that's a weird variable.....  We do face some interesting health challenges with the replacement of a hormonal balance though.....

Of course they included suicides. And people who self-medicate and do it wrong. And people who have breast augmentations with doubtful methods or surgeons. And people who are murdered because they are different. That's just how life expentancy calculations work. If it were just a study on the effects of HRT, it would have been called as such and be done with clinical trials on HRT patients and statistical comparisons, and a lot of other things. It would be a very difficult thing to do.

If they factored out suicide and such in life expectancy calculations, why on Earth would Black people have a lower one in racist areas, for example?

I am convinced it is GID that causes most of us to die early, whether that involves lack of ability to integrate and experience life as our truer sex and personal unhappiness/dysphoria or whether it is a result of prejudice and abuse.  Nature (the way nature made us) or nurture (how Society treats us).

My solution is to transition to the degree that one no longer depends upon others for acceptance so that individual can just live and experience life as his or her truer sex.  Not a perfect solution, may not work for everyone but I will do anything to have and maintain it for myself.

Quote from: A on April 21, 2012, 02:20:53 PM
Of course they included suicides. And people who self-medicate and do it wrong. And people who have breast augmentations with doubtful methods or surgeons. And people who are murdered because they are different. That's just how life expentancy calculations work. If it were just a study on the effects of HRT, it would have been called as such and be done with clinical trials on HRT patients and statistical comparisons, and a lot of other things. It would be a very difficult thing to do.

If they factored out suicide and such in life expectancy calculations, why on Earth would Black people have a lower one in racist areas, for example?

I was looking at it strictly from a medical standpoint.  EG: smokers vs non smokers.  What are the health effects from nicotine in a smoker vs a non smoker.  If you included suicides in that, it would not be a true guage in what you are trying to look at.  As life expectancy is based on "The age-specific death rates are calculated separately for separate groups of data which are believed to have different mortality rates (e.g. males and females, and perhaps smokers and non-smokers if data is available separately for those groups) and are then used to calculate a life table, from which one can calculate the probability of surviving to each age." I took the assumption that it was looking at the person from a medical standpoint.  Since hormone therapy does increase the risk of clots, heart attack, stroke, etc I assumed that was the basis of the comparison.

Yes, there are a LOT (and way to many, actually) suicides in transgendered people, I would have to imagine that per capita, there are more suicides in non transgendered people, simply because there are more non TG people in the world than there are TG. (if you're talking strictly numbers)  Not to take anything away from that stat, but comparing those numbers shouldn't reduce a TG's life expectancy by 20 years in comparision.

Just my opinion of course....... since I don't know where that stat was taken from to begin with.  I know I shouldn't assume..... 

Well, even in a study about an easier thing such as the life expectancy of smokers versus non-smokers, it is impossible to entirely factor out other causes of death only indirectly related to smoking. Fictive examples:

-Smokers, more used to smoke, avoid cars' and trucks' smoke less, since it doesn't make them cough, and get more cancer from those;
-Smokers are people who tend to care less about risk and want immediate pleasure, so they would use drugs, drive too fast and expose themselves to danger more thus lowering their life expectancy.

In any case, since HRT does not bring significantly higher health risks for the vast majority of patients, compared to non-HRT, if it is prescribed by a competent specialist and appropriate follow-up is done (IMO, but I highly doubt I'm wrong), I still think that this statistic, if it is accurate, is 99 % attributable to:

-Suicides
-Murders
-Social integration problems (employment, less friends thus more depression, etc.)
-Self-medicating (wrong dose, illegal HRT not being the right product, people self-medicating oral HRT whilst they're at risk for liver problems and any competent doctor would've prescribed transdermal...)
-Other co-morbidity related issues such as depression, drugs, prostitution to pay for transition, transition costs possibly bringing more poverty, etc.

Also, it's important to note that the study, according to Monica85, mentions that MTF transsexuals die sooner than cis men. MTF transsexuals doesn't mean "people on HRT". So in theory, the study probably includes many non-transitioned MTFs which, first, reduces the ratio of people in the study who are on HRT by a significant amount, decreasing its importance, and second, factors in people who have gender dysphoria but haven't (medically) done anything about it, which would increase depression's importance as a death factor in that data.

Finally, as I've already said, I believe that female hormones, versus male hormones, reduce the chance of developing quite a few cardio-vascular illnesses, for example. One cause among others would be that a female-type fat distribution pattern generally has less abdominal and visceral fat, resulting in a lower waist measurement, than a male-type pattern. All three of these are strong risk factors for various cardio-vascular issues.

In my very own opinion, if you combine the reduction of these risks, the increase of venous thrombosis/etc. issues, both from HRT, as well as the guidance of quilified professionals who would minimize to the extreme the increase in venous thrombosis/etc. risk, the risk difference between HRT and non-HRT is probably zero.

Quote from: A on April 21, 2012, 04:44:37 PM
Well, even in a study about an easier thing such as the life expectancy of smokers versus non-smokers, it is impossible to entirely factor out other causes of death only indirectly related to smoking. Fictive examples:

-Smokers, more used to smoke, avoid cars' and trucks' smoke less, since it doesn't make them cough, and get more cancer from those;
-Smokers are people who tend to care less about risk and want immediate pleasure, so they would use drugs, drive too fast and expose themselves to danger more thus lowering their life expectancy.

In any case, since HRT does not bring significantly higher health risks for the vast majority of patients, compared to non-HRT, if it is prescribed by a competent specialist and appropriate follow-up is done (IMO, but I highly doubt I'm wrong), I still think that this statistic, if it is accurate, is 99 % attributable to:

-Suicides
-Murders
-Social integration problems (employment, less friends thus more depression, etc.)
-Self-medicating (wrong dose, illegal HRT not being the right product, people self-medicating oral HRT whilst they're at risk for liver problems and any competent doctor would've prescribed transdermal...)
-Other co-morbidity related issues such as depression, drugs, prostitution to pay for transition, transition costs possibly bringing more poverty, etc.

Also, it's important to note that the study, according to Monica85, mentions that MTF transsexuals die sooner than cis men. MTF transsexuals doesn't mean "people on HRT". So in theory, the study probably includes many non-transitioned MTFs which, first, reduces the ratio of people in the study who are on HRT by a significant amount, decreasing its importance, and second, factors in people who have gender dysphoria but haven't (medically) done anything about it, which would increase depression's importance as a death factor in that data.

Finally, as I've already said, I believe that female hormones, versus male hormones, reduce the chance of developing quite a few cardio-vascular illnesses, for example. One cause among others would be that a female-type fat distribution pattern generally has less abdominal and visceral fat, resulting in a lower waist measurement, than a male-type pattern. All three of these are strong risk factors for various cardio-vascular issues.

In my very own opinion, if you combine the reduction of these risks, the increase of venous thrombosis/etc. issues, both from HRT, as well as the guidance of quilified professionals who would minimize to the extreme the increase in venous thrombosis/etc. risk, the risk difference between HRT and non-HRT is probably zero.

totally understand what you mean, and I really didn't mean strictly from a HRT standpoint, although sometimes communicating in a forum can seem to have certain opinions point a certain way.  I didn't really explain myself as well as I thought I did.  I have to belive it is at least part of the equation though, as anytime that you replace something naturally occuring in the body with a substance from outside of the body, it can have unwanted effects.  And it also depends on the therapy, even by a knowledgeable physician. (EG: estrogen and progesterone is a much more dangerous combination than say, estrogen and lupron depot... but again, estrogen and progesterone is dangerous for both men, and women, and that risk goes up depending on age.  Testosterone can also cause high blood pressure, amongst other things.  these are always regulated better by the body when naturally occuring..... but it appears we are both very well versed on hormones and their effects, so the point is moot.  It also depends on the person taking them... I work out very hard and eat well, and I still put on about 20 lbs of weight from hormone therapy... quite an unexpected side effect due to my healthy eating and excersise habits.  I've since lost about 15lbs of it, but it was suprising).  I would expect to see this as at least part of the reasoning....

regardless, it still seems that 20 years seems like a very high number, and it would be interesting to see the information divided up into specific areas.   

You have a point. I guess it's a debate that is hard to give an answer to without an array of studies, which we don't have.

Anyway, I guess we should all just go with telling ourselves that even if being happy has a price, it has to be worth it.

Quote from: A on April 21, 2012, 05:53:24 PM
I guess we should all just go with telling ourselves that even if being happy has a price, it has to be worth it.

AMEN!  I'd rather live a short, happy life, than a long unfufilled one....

The star that shines twice as bright lives half as long.

Quote from: Monica85 on April 21, 2012, 12:01:48 PM
Stumbled across a text which said something about the lifespan of "MTF" was 20 years lower than life expectancy of a biologically born a man?
Does anyone know if this is true, and if so why that is?
I've never heard anything about this at Hospital. I think also it is quite relevant to state if this is the case ...

I think using common sense, we can already work out some factors causing lower life expectency of trangsender individuals:
1.  Traditionally poorer social-economic circumstances.

In the past before some job protections came in place, it was difficult to hold down a good job.  As a result, that would result in red light work which would then lead to...

2.  Higher levels of death by violent means/drugs/etc.

If you're on the street, you're more likely to encounter violence, if you're having to do escort work, drugs aren't uncommon, etc.

3.  Higher levels of depression/suicidal tendencies.

4.  Risks involved with long term HRT - I've put a summary somewhere else on this site.

Things have gotten better, but the odds are still stacked against us in many ways.  I would hazard to say that if we exclude the social/psychological factors, then the only negative factor reducing transgender individuals is long term HRT and the effects of long term estrogen HRT are fairly well established at this point.

Things that I think we'd like to know as a community:
1. Compare the number of transgender depression related suicides to non-transgender suicide rates.
2. Are cross hormone HRT complication rates the same as natal HRT?
3. The rate at which young transitioners end up on the streets, and what can be done about it.

I hope this is true because I do not want to become old, and I don't value my life anyways lol. I just sorta roll with it.

I hate to be the one to break this, but...

You ARE going to die, sooner or later it WILL happen.