I've certainly seen this hostility expressed online, however I haven't experienced it in my local community. People seem to be very accepting of who I am, whether or not they totally "get it".

I respect everyone's right to live as and express their gender in whatever ways that feel right for them. If I don't understand it, I listen and try to learn more about their reasons. My being non-binary in no way negates someone else who is binary.

Z

Maybe the reason there is all sorts of "friggin' discussions" (I really like this and will now include it in every post. ) of gender roles, etc. is because we as androgynes don't have any clue what else gender could possibly be. I, for one, have no clue what it is to be male or female. I am not sure this is a *better* state. It could conceivably (and in my case) IS confusing. It's different.

Not everybody likes Aspies (people with Asperger's syndrome) either. I think they don't understand it either.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:

A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.

B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.

But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.

Trista, thanks for be so honest about your feelings. I think I understand better after reading what you said. Even though my experience is similar to Edge and Jay Jay that my non-binary nature is not a choice, I can understand how it would look that way, and how it would make you uncomfortable. Don't let us non-binaries run you out of town for expressing your feelings of discomfort

I'm still on the fence about going back to that support group. After hearing what you said, I realize that despite what they said, my presence does make them uncomfortable enough to make it hard for them to see me as a person rather than a reflection of themselves.

Quote from: aleon515 on June 03, 2012, 01:55:20 AM
Maybe the reason there is all sorts of "friggin' discussions" (I really like this and will now include it in every post. ) of gender roles, etc. is because we as androgynes don't have any clue what else gender could possibly be. I, for one, have no clue what it is to be male or female. I am not sure this is a *better* state. It could conceivably (and in my case) IS confusing. It's different.

Not everybody likes Aspies (people with Asperger's syndrome) either. I think they don't understand it either.

--Jay Jay

That makes sense and I think ties in to something agfrommd noticed in another thread. I know I researched what gender is when I first realized I was male (at the time) to try and figure out what it is.
lol Sorry. I have a potty mouth. Censoring it can be fun though. Saying "darn you to heck" tends to make people laugh and diffuses situations. I stole that from Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light.
My best friend in high school has Aspergers. He was the sweetest guy ever. Ironically, the people who thought he was "slow" are losers (ex: drug addicts and working minimum wage). He is now an engineer.
Sorry for the bit of thread derailment.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:

A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.

B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.

But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.

This except, well, my credibility as a man.
I don't see gender as personality thing - I feel different everyday and I even used to express in androgynous fashion years ago, but I still have trouble seeing androgynous as an identity - I still identified as male while I was wearing those clothing. It's okay to feel more masculine and more feminine on certain days, but I will never understand androgyny as an identity per se. That's okay though, I guess, because I mean, as Trista said, people can express themselves however they want.

I'm all for mutual respect, but the key word there is mutual.
I am very much against the idea of gender being a personality choice or a choice at all. No one has the right to tell me (or anyone else) that I (or they) think that just because I can't fit into the binary (much as I would like to). No one has the right to tell me (or anyone else) that how I (or they) identify or what I feel isn't valid.
I can understand not knowing any better, as I have said. What I can't understand is continuing to act like one doesn't know any better after one has been corrected by several people.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
What I can gather from androgynes is that they treat their gender like a masculinity/femininity scale, and I just don't believe that's what gender is.

Certainly isn't that way for me. My way of approaching problems, my approach to my job, the way I reason about the world, are very male. When I do these things, I recognize the male in me. My way of forming friendships and being involved in friendships, my emotional life, how I relate and identify with other people are very female. When I am involved in these parts of my life, I recognize the female in me. I certainly couldn't place myself on any kind of a scale. I'm just me.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
@agfrommd: If you're asking me, I think you should just keep going lolz. Don't stop yourself just because it makes people feel uncomfortable.

Thank you for the advice. It's giving me courage to go back.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
My definition of gender is simply, how you feel and how you want to be treated. As a guy I have low self-esteem and several issues with my body. When puberty started I became depressed  ....What I can gather from androgynes is that they treat their gender like a masculinity/femininity scale, and I just don't believe that's what gender is. What I meant by insecurity is that they made me feel like we were all just crazy, and I wouldn't mind so much but when dealing with the subject of hormones, my fertility is precious to me, and I don't want to limit it unless there's a pretty damn good reason.

Anyways, that's my rant, sorry if it's offensive somehow, as that's not my intention.

As for offending, it is hard to be very nuanced, given the type of feedback. I try not to be, but sometimes I am. It's sort of automatic.

Anyway, I don't know re: your definition of gender, since I don't think I have one. The only thing I know is that I didn't choose this. I didn't wake up one day, as I say.

I don't know that a scale is the best way to think about this. But I know that it is often a metaphor (or something). There are lots of problems with the "gender gumby thing" (might look this one up), but there end up to be 5-10 scales which to me works a bit better than one. But still I think it's only a metaphor, and perhaps a quite flawed one.

I don't think anyone's crazy (well unless they are actually crazy, not sure that I met anyone there on susan's). As for hormones,  I don't know that I would do this but I definitely see the draw. Some people who do this feel more comfortable in their bodies, as dysphoria is not so uncommon here either. I would say 90% of androgynes would not take hormones. (Though I have no stats at hand.) My fertility (well when I had it that is) was not at ALL precious to me though. I never had more than a very fleeting passing interest in bearing children. I am asexual so it would be a moot point anyway.

BTW, there are mtfs and ftms who are careless users of hormones too, so I don't think this is all on the androgyne side in the slightest. (For instance, get off the net and so on.)


--Jay Jay

As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.

I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so.  I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years).  I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender.  I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns.  I could go on hormones.  I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.

What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.

None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others.  Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.

There is nothing about gender that could possibly be a "wrong" choice; it doesn't matter if someone is born a certain way or they choose it.  And they most likely wouldn't choose it if they weren't naturally inclined toward it anyway.  I wish society understood that.

I don't think of gender as a masculinity/femininity scale.  That's one possible model for discussing gender, and is sometimes useful as a tool to communicate and understand -- because we all have a pretty good idea of what is male and what is female, so they are handy reference points.  But some people will tell you truthfully they have no relationship to that scale.

What I most want people to understand about gender is that the map is not the territory.  All these terms and models and so on should not be divisive.Really we are all just who we are.

Quote from: Ariel on June 02, 2012, 04:34:52 AM
The thing is that some of it, I think, comes from ignorance... people say how much "better" it must be to be bisexual, because one has more options... when really for me it means that no single partner will have everything I want. It's both, not either/or.

Oh dear. It's exactly that concern that makes me reluctant to consider dating a bisexual and the bisexuals I've met have repeatedly told me this is a fallacy. In other words, what they have been telling me is in fact, either/or rather than needing both. I'm sure it's different for everyone.

I guess if I ever go out with a bi person again, I'll have to discuss this with them at some point before I start to take the relationship too seriously and find out where they stand. This tends to trigger some insecurities in me, knowing that there are some things my partner might crave that I can never provide.

Quote from: Padma on June 02, 2012, 12:56:54 PM
It's like the unpopular kids in the school playground not wanting to be seen with the more unpopular kids.

Yikes! What a viscous cycle... but you're probably right.

A lot of this seems related to the topic.

http://www.thescavenger.net/glb/bisexuality-does-not-reinforce-the-gender-binary-39675-467.html

It is totally logical for nature to create every combination.  I seem to have some level of gender fluidity with ability to move to guy, gal or Bird of Paradise.

I have not found trans community to be mean to me; however they do not like to get outed and they have their own confidence issues.

I am not a Drag Queen as I use very little makeup, do not like high heels, and do not like frilly clothes.  I love bright clothes and nice jewelry.  I hate wigs and I have a receding hairline.  I appear to be "super gay" to everyone rather than "Queen".

I think my autism and lack of empathy makes me totally oblivious to what people are telling me.

I now present either MTF or FTM and have eliminated Gender Blender.

General society and trans community seem much happier.  I am MTF for community and FTM for my cisgender family and neighborhood.  In fact community is positive I finally transitioned and neighborhood is positive that I gave up.  No way.  I just swim upstream.  In fact my name translates to live by a stream.

I seem to be happier as a gal but when I get frustrated or feel threatened I need to scream.  I literally scream with a male voice box.  It is so unladylike!

I dislike being called sir even presenting guy and ma'am is nice when presenting gal.  I prefer my fem name in either mode.  My paranoia makes me think I never pass.  However community tells me I am fine and if I do not out myself I pass.  It is cool.  I think I do pass sometimes.  At least many are nice to me.

Susan's site have always been rather nice and very informative.

First there is no High  Council of Gender Norming that we all have to present ourselves to, to find out if we meet all of the characteristics to be one gender or the other.    Stereo types of male and female are created by Hollywood, advertising wizards, and modelling agencies.   This committee exists only in the fear centers of our brains.    There is no magic closet we can appear out of as the perfect male or the perfect female.   There are no gender police who will arrest us if we do not live within the gender norms for either male or female.    In fact the gender norms don't even really exist except in the book of definitions put out in some ivory tower museum of divine psychology.  Yet our fear of being different creates these mythical norming agencies in the nether reaches of our brain.    Maleness and Femaleness exist on some kind of continuum and most people are somewhere in between.   When we identify ourselves as one gender or another we are identifying with one end of the continuum or the other.   But we are either in the middle of the continuum or on the male side or the female side.  If we are transgender our physical body is on one end of the continuum and our gender identification is on the other.    We want to live on the side of our gender identity.    But as far as physical appearance is concerned unless we start early we are going to have problems blending our bodies to fit our gender identification.   Some of us transgender women may look like we have male hormone problems, which we actually do have. 

Some people will see our choices are at either one end or the other end of the continuum.   While others may only identify themselves according to the continuum line and be totally oblivious to either the male end or the female end of the continuum and may well present themselves somewhere between male and female stereo types.   Many transgender women want to forget that the male side of the continuum even exists even though the effects that male sex hormones have had on their bodies growing up will shine through unless they were able to start becoming female before the male hormones shaped their bodies.   This is the same for male transgenders.

Everyone on the continuum whose bodies do not match with our gender identification are a part of the transgender community no matter of their point of view.   No matter how much many of us transgender women wish to get lost in the feminine end of the continuum and for get that the any of our existence was ever on the male side, our bodies were born male and any one who really cares can discover this and bring us out of the closet.   

We really need to be all inclusive if we ever want to have any acceptance of ourselves according to our gender identity because people will be more and more blind to our physical incongruence if feminine males or masculine females are accepted as normal.

Quote from: foosnark on June 04, 2012, 12:05:02 PM
As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.

I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so.  I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years).  I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender.  I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns.  I could go on hormones.  I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.

What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.

None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others.  Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.

Yes, your route, what you do with what's inside, that's up to you. What you feel, what is internal, is not a choice. I think it causes some confusion. I see that I have several routes as well. I am pretty sure I wouldn't do some of them. They range from doing nothing at all to partial  transition including low dose hormones. People with the set of feelings I have have done all of them.

I doubt that anyone with similar feelings and so on, would do a full ftm transition. This requires an internal drive of how on-right their insides and outsides are that I don't have.

At least I think this is what this is in essence-- it's feeling that the outer and inner self don't match. There are things I can do to either ignore this or act on it to a greater or lesser extent. Whether you are binary or not, I think that essentially is what this is about.

IF being non-binary were a choice, then I could maybe brag about it (or feel lesser about it).
But it is the above question, imo.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: michelle on June 04, 2012, 11:00:49 PM
First there is no High  Council of Gender Norming that we all have to present ourselves to, to find out if we meet all of the characteristics to be one gender or the other.   

I love the way you put this Michelle.

While there is no High Council, I feel like there are a hundred million low councils who each have there own (highly overlapping) versions. I've always had a hard time fitting in socially and that's made me kind of inhibited about doing anything that makes me stand out as Different.

Quote from: agfrommd on June 05, 2012, 07:08:42 AM
I love the way you put this Michelle.

While there is no High Council, I feel like there are a hundred million low councils who each have there own (highly overlapping) versions. I've always had a hard time fitting in socially and that's made me kind of inhibited about doing anything that makes me stand out as Different.

Too funny.  One hundred million low councils do perpetuate high council policing!

I do not fit in and I have tried to fit in but I do things that cause me not to fit in.

Even twin 7 year old girls down block when I walk dog in boy mode try to "teach" me how to be a man.

They concluded I must be grandma.  I asked how old?

One said 84.

One identical twin is much nicer to me and big Irish Setter.  We are all very different. Even identical twins can be very different.

Quote from: foosnark on June 04, 2012, 12:05:02 PM
As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.

I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so.  I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years).  I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender.  I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns.  I could go on hormones.  I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.

What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.

None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others.  Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.

There is nothing about gender that could possibly be a "wrong" choice; it doesn't matter if someone is born a certain way or they choose it.  And they most likely wouldn't choose it if they weren't naturally inclined toward it anyway.  I wish society understood that.

I don't think of gender as a masculinity/femininity scale.  That's one possible model for discussing gender, and is sometimes useful as a tool to communicate and understand -- because we all have a pretty good idea of what is male and what is female, so they are handy reference points.  But some people will tell you truthfully they have no relationship to that scale.

What I most want people to understand about gender is that the map is not the territory.  All these terms and models and so on should not be divisive.Really we are all just who we are.

Funny, I just about agree with ALL you state – the only difference was choosing MtF and going the whole 9 yards, balls to the wall, the whole enchilada --- SRS

Yes, it is a choice and better be figured out well. Very well!

I my case it was easier as my alternative was going to "check out of this here hotel".

I also have to say that when I'm called by my true/real gender she, her, ma'am and the like, it's like some light switch is turned on inside me.
It happens a lot, as I do pass OK so as not to create an issue with mis-gendering.

Having said that - life GOES on, and we get do downs being a gal - as being a guy... my best guess. I had a pretty good guy act going, but essentially was ALWAYS more female than I dared to acknowledge - until something snapped.

So, yes there are choices... in my case it was MtF. Period.
Sitting "on the fence" or "between chairs" of the binary world in my case, would have been the worst of choices, I feel.
One reason why it took so long till the "last nail" broke? Could well be.

Axélle

Witnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:

Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."

This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.

Quote from: dalebert on June 04, 2012, 12:49:53 PM
Oh dear. It's exactly that concern that makes me reluctant to consider dating a bisexual and the bisexuals I've met have repeatedly told me this is a fallacy. In other words, what they have been telling me is in fact, either/or rather than needing both. I'm sure it's different for everyone.

I guess if I ever go out with a bi person again, I'll have to discuss this with them at some point before I start to take the relationship too seriously and find out where they stand. This tends to trigger some insecurities in me, knowing that there are some things my partner might crave that I can never provide.

Well in my experience no one person can ever provide everything for anyone--this is why it's good to have friends and family and etc.! But please don't take me to be like all bisexual people--there are plenty who are either/or, and even those who might not be who choose to be monogamous. Just trust your partner, I suppose.

By the same token, non-binary people seem to be different in a lot of ways. I think most would say it isn't a choice... I know I wouldn't have chosen to feel the way I am... and the body dysphoria I've had off-and-on most of my life seems to have something to do with that. I talk about societal roles because that does matter but I don't think suddenly reversing what it meant to be "male" or "female" would cause people to suddenly think they weren't male or female, or even cause mass body dysphoria. Gender seems to be a lot of things, a lot of it very much innate.