Quote from: Molly on May 17, 2012, 11:31:02 PM
   when I was helping/flirting a cute girl whose number I wanted to get......  in the eyes of an ostensibly heterosexual girl.  Thinking back on it, a little part of me is disappointed in myself for making the adjustment.  Not that it matters much... I never did get her number (because I didn't even ask).

Well...was she in for a hell of a surprise if you got her number and had started dating her....

When I was younger many years before I started transitioning I kept being told 'Be like a man why do you look and act so feminine', my reply was get lost!

A few things...

You don't have to go to someone designated as a GT for therapy.  It's been my personal experience that therapists that were so tightly focused on a thing tended to be far more inflexible and already had an established set of expectations in play before I walked in the door.

Perhaps it is an age thing, meaning that once you reach a certain point in your life you honestly find it easier not to give those f--- about what others think or how they react to you, but if you work on that I think it'll serve you well regardless of the choices you make moving forward.

Don't let anyone else's expectations drive your experiences or expressions of self into some predetermined cattle chute.  The flip side of that is that you're then presented with a very real opportunity to be straightforward in your introspection and suspend your drama and hyperbole in favor of realism and honesty.  It has been my experience that doing anything else is just wheel spinning and can lead to some very real and lasting frustrations.

Don't let other people's horror stories sway your decision making processes.  Bear in mind that the most vocal segment of any online population is usually the segment that has something negative to complain about.  Folks that are happy and content with how things have gone/are going for them usually reserve the level of cynicism common here for tax season and election years. ;p

I'm a firm believer that how you approach and communicate your choices to others directly influence how your choices are perceived and reacted to.  Uncertainty is reacted to with uncertainty, doubt with doubt, drama with eye-rolling, and so on.  Again, just my experience, but I think that you finding someone who'll allow you the time to be genuinely uncertain and work through your stuff without drawing some instant conclusion would be the way to go, or at least something to shoot for.

I didn't address your question because it was a question prompted by the ignorant statement of someone with their head up their ass, and giving it any weight or consideration seems a waste of time and effort.  No-one can tell you how you can be more feminine past the most basic of generalizations. 

It's something you'll determine for yourself as you move forward, based on expectations you set for yourself, not those imposed upon you, or even suggested to you, by others.

I wish you the very best figuring it all out.

-Miki

Quote from: Miki on July 13, 2012, 10:25:20 PM
A few things...

You don't have to go to someone designated as a GT for therapy.  It's been my personal experience that therapists that were so tightly focused on a thing tended to be far more inflexible and already had an established set of expectations in play before I walked in the door.

Perhaps it is an age thing, meaning that once you reach a certain point in your life you honestly find it easier not to give those f---- about what others think or how they react to you, but if you work on that I think it'll serve you well regardless of the choices you make moving forward.

Don't let anyone else's expectations drive your experiences or expressions of self into some predetermined cattle chute.  The flip side of that is that you're then presented with a very real opportunity to be straightforward in your introspection and suspend your drama and hyperbole in favor of realism and honesty.  It has been my experience that doing anything else is just wheel spinning and can lead to some very real and lasting frustrations.

Don't let other people's horror stories sway your decision making processes.  Bear in mind that the most vocal segment of any online population is usually the segment that has something negative to complain about.  Folks that are happy and content with how things have gone/are going for them usually reserve the level of cynicism common here for tax season and election years. ;p

I'm a firm believer that how you approach and communicate your choices to others directly influence how your choices are perceived and reacted to.  Uncertainty is reacted to with uncertainty, doubt with doubt, drama with eye-rolling, and so on.  Again, just my experience, but I think that you finding someone who'll allow you the time to be genuinely uncertain and work through your stuff without drawing some instant conclusion would be the way to go, or at least something to shoot for.

I didn't address your question because it was a question prompted by the ignorant statement of someone with their head up their ass, and giving it any weight or consideration seems a waste of time and effort.  No-one can tell you how you can be more feminine past the most basic of generalizations. 

It's something you'll determine for yourself as you move forward, based on expectations you set for yourself, not those imposed upon you, or even suggested to you, by others.

I wish you the very best figuring it all out.

-Miki

Oustanding post Miki +1

Quote from: Dahlia on May 12, 2012, 07:19:24 AM
That's very odd. She should know that the average pre everything MTF is a (hyper)masculine male and inborn feminity is very, very rare in MTF's.

Are you sure? The average MTF is feminine from my experience. Only a few are 'masculine males' to start with.

Quote from: Katie M. on July 14, 2012, 09:09:18 AM
Are you sure? The average MTF is feminine from my experience. Only a few are 'masculine males' to start with.

Personal observation (from laypersons) is the weakest form of evidence.

Studies have shown that many MTFs overcompensate by attempting to be hyper-masculine. This is from data collected over many years.  Keep in mind that in the recent past, it was not only difficult but nearly impossible to transition. Today, anyone who has the ability to log onto the internet can find all the information she needs to transition. This was not the case even twenty years ago. So this phenomenon of MTFs hiding their femininity by becoming overtly masculine may be becoming a thing of the past.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 14, 2012, 12:33:19 PM


Studies have shown that many MTFs overcompensate by attempting to be hyper-masculine. This is from data collected over many years.  Keep in mind that in the recent past, it was not only difficult but nearly impossible to transition.

Hmmmmmmmm....that's not really necessary anymore since the 1970's...women's lib, women's emancipation feminism, gay emancipation had their influence on men in general.

No need to be hypermasculine to 'compensate' anymore....but I think MTF are very often hyper-masculine by nature.
'Man enough to be a woman' so to speak.

Quote from: Dahlia on July 14, 2012, 01:20:05 PM
Hmmmmmmmm....that's not really necessary anymore since the 1970's...women's lib, women's emancipation feminism, gay emancipation had their influence on men in general.

No need to be hypermasculine to 'compensate' anymore....but I think MTF are very often hyper-masculine by nature.
'Man enough to be a woman' so to speak.

Yep honestly maybe it's different environments but I never got it. It's actually weird for people to suspect someone of being trans before they come out... really it's hard enough to convince someone that you should transition even when they know you as a hyper-feminine male...

And it's not like you're forced to have a big group of macho guy friends.

Quote from: pretty on July 14, 2012, 02:23:20 PM
really it's hard enough to convince someone that you should transition even when they know you as a hyper-feminine male...

Very, very true! I was hyperfeminine and was 'mistaken' for a girl/woman frequently and even so I also sometimes had trouble convincing people my necessity to transition.

Quote from: Dahlia on July 14, 2012, 04:27:54 PM
Very, very true! I was hyperfeminine and was 'mistaken' for a girl/woman frequently and even so I also sometimes had trouble convincing people my necessity to transition.

You should never try to convince anyone you need to transition except by actually doing it.  That is the most convincing argument you could ever make.  ^_^

The reality is we are the only ones who need to be convinced and we don't need anyone's permission.  That is why I had SRS a year before I went full-time, I just didn't need the resistance.  And then I could say, well I already had the surgery O_O .

* Bam! *

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on July 21, 2012, 07:46:33 AM
You should never try to convince anyone you need to transition except by actually doing it.  That is the most convincing argument you could ever make.  ^_^

The reality is we are the only ones who need to be convinced and we don't need anyone's permission.

I totally agree with this. Once I decided to transition I was bursting at the seams and I was totally unstoppable. By the time I had my first appointment at the GIC I had been on hrt for 6 months, had my name legally changed, come out at work and been full time for 3 months already. Being the micro-managers they are they did not like my DIY at all, but there was no point in trying to stop me or slow me down by then so they grunted in dismay and sent me to their endo. Apart from some blood work and prescriptions my transition was all me. No hand holding or guidance from doctors or therapists. I'm not saying my path is recommended or best for everyone, but for me being a self-made woman was absolutely the correct thing to do. If one truly wishes to transition then no one can stop you.

Quote
That is why I had SRS a year before I went full-time, I just didn't need the resistance.  And then I could say, well I already had the surgery O_O .

* Bam! *

That is highly irregular. I like it 

I've not read every reply on this thread so this may have been said already, stop worrying about what others think, relax & just be yourself.
After coming out I felt more relaxed to be myself, I stopped keeping my hands in my pockets & they are now expressive as my face when I speak, my walk is becoming more fluid & whilst i've always been an emotional person I no longer hide this, i'm sure that being more open about my emotions is much better for me than bottling them up..

I know plenty of women who are "tomboys" for want of a better expression, they never wear feminine clothes & they laugh & joke with men on their level but I never doubt their feminity, surely no-one can have the right to say you have to tick X amount of boxes to be feminine.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 21, 2012, 11:58:17 AM

I have never, ever, ever heard a genetic woman say "oh, I feel so feminine!! I love being a girl!"

Why?

Because it sounds really stupid.

Well, I have heard several cisgirls/women say that...during (the late stages of) pregnancy for instance.
And on other occasions as well.
It doesn't sound stupid to me at all.

Why on earth would a cisgirl/woman appreciating her femininety and voicing that be called 'really stupid'?!?

That sounds like you strongly dislike women who appreciate their feminity.

On the other hand...I've heard cis women and men say about (very) masculine MTF....oh? ehm? really? woman? but I see/hear/sense a guy!

Doesn't sound stupid too.

That just sounds  honest and not in a politically incorrect way.

Just honest, human perception.

As in: 'she's a TS? I can't imagine she used to be a man....she's so feminine (regarding looks, bodylanguage, voice etc)
I've heard ciswomen and men say that about MTF too, see?

Oh, btw; I've heard ( unsuspecting, until her man came out of the closet ) wives/girlfriends  of men who turn out to be TS say....'I feel less woman because of'....or even 'I feel a lesser woman because of....'

That doesn't sound stupid to me too.

Btw: a MTF  calling a ciswomen's femininity  'old fashioned' or simply denying  it,  is almost like saying: 'hey, it's 'normal' and ok for me to be (very) masculine'

<say that you must present an overly "feminine" image to compensate for the fact that they were born trans. >

I'm not overly "feminine'...there wasn't and isn't a trace of masculinity in me....so you won't hear me bragging about how I love shooting big guns, gunplay, baseball, the army, racing cars etc.

Nothing wrong with this song....love it! ;-)

Quote from: Laura91 on July 22, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
Well, since we are bringing music into the discussion how about some Cretin?



and some 13:

Cretins love noise and love to make noise, that's a well known fact :-)

Sometimes this topic leaves me a little torn - one side of me feels that being female simply comes naturally by letting one's old habits go, which was my experience, although I know others who 'teach themselves' to become female. Initially I dismissed such an approach as simply following a restrictive caricature of femininity, and I still believe the over-emphasis of such an approach can end up being restrictive, although I also see it now as teaching oneself the things that would have been learnt if born physically female, which seems fair enough, particularly for somebody transitioning later in life.

However, I never assumed a particularly masculine persona, and many people comment on my femininity (not only people who are 'surprised I am trans', but also those that are commenting and only know me as apparently non-trans), although I put no effort into acting feminine, and simply do what comes naturally. It wasn't so much being feminine that was the challenge for me, but it was deconstructing the feminine male persona I had built and reconciling my confused gender identity. In other words, finding femininity was the easy part, finding femaleness and a centered female identity was the true challenge - made the challenges of navigating medical institutions, surgeries and treatments, outside discrimination and potential rejection look like a cakewalk in comparison.

I'm really sorry the therapist treated you like that.  My first meeting with a psychiatrist, not a gender one, but my local psychologist told me to go to him and that he's SUPER good.  Anyway, I went to him and he told me I'm a homosexual who wants to play the role of a female in a relationship with a hetero male.  I was 15 years old and it felt like the end of the world.  Things got better, though. 

There's really no secret to being more feminine.  Act like yourself!  Though, I did notice that women tend to be a bit more expressive than men.  Grow your hair out, keep your face clean shaven, dress a bit androgynous, etc.  You know that you feel you are/should be a woman.  Own that side and let it out

Quote from: Laura91 on July 22, 2012, 10:37:29 AM
Well, since we are bringing music into the discussion ...

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on May 11, 2012, 09:52:07 PM
I mean IMO, something is wrong when a therapist is telling you to be more feminine.

I've said it before, sometimes looking for the right doctor is a lot like dating, in that you kiss a few frogs before you find the one that clicks with you.  In my experience, some of the best doctors were the ones that let me transition in the ways that felt appropriate to me.  Everyone's needs are different, and a one size fits all approach isn't always right.  Not to mention that there isn't just one way to be "feminine." As a woman, I find the whole idea that you have to be super femmed out in order to be a proper woman a little offensive.  If you want to be, that's fine, but I hate the line that it's the only way to be feminine. 

Worrying about how feminine you are is overrated.

Walk the line where you feel your line is. I love to shoot guns, and I love to shop. I love to go gun shopping while wearing some stylin s*** ... I'll aww over kitten pictures one minute and laugh at stupid women faceplanting into the beach while playing volleyball the next. When it's all said and done, if you're a girl (well... passing is a factor in this too), you will be seen as a girl no matter what you do.