Okay, I personally don't believe in God, and that's my way. I believe in science (well actually, I don't BELIEVE in science, I KNOW science) since nothing in science is true unless proven. I believe the universe itself was the first and only thing to ever come from nothing, not that someone had to make it. Religion is something I see as a tool people use to stifle others. I don't think a God would create gay people just to hate on them after the fact, nor do I understand how Annah could be trans and support a religion that hates her kind. You know what, these are my beliefs and I'm allowed to have them just like Christians and all other religions can have theirs. You can have your own beliefs, just try not to make other people's lives miserable simply because they don't follow your code of beliefs. Don't try to force your ideas on others. People are allowed to disagree with you. It's part of what makes us human.

I am not taking anyone's side here. I just think everyone has the right to beliefs.

So now can we all just shut the fudge up and try to live in peace, please?!?!

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 24, 2012, 11:03:34 PM
I will say that I allow for the possibility that there is an intelligence to the Universe.  Sometimes when I have meditated it is like I have downloaded information that I never learned.  If so where did it come from?

I would imagine you extrapolate it from other information already in your brain. New things can be learned by thinking alone.

You have mentioned meditation before. I know little about it but it sounds fascinating.

My understanding is that god created Adam and Eve (that is the god I grew up with).  And he put them in a garden where everything was perfect.  But he put a temptation in the garden because he wasn't content for them to just be happy.  He knew that a good television series needed some drama so all you television viewers out there were thinking, "Oh my lord, dear god, why did you put that temptation in the garden, these are your kids and you are supposed to love them, would you put a child in a room with exposed electrical wires and tell that child, "Now don't go touching the electrical wires of the knowledge of good and evil?"

Except these kids didn't just get zapped.  God went about creating all sorts of punishments not just for them but for their kids, cancer, syphilis, blindness, earthquakes, tornadoes...  In fact god is still trying to come up with new ways to cause suffering and death, medicine resistant strains of flesh eating viruses.

My brother has been bed-ridden for five years now.  He can't speak or eat, he has tubes in all his orifices and he is constantly coughing up puss and experiencing all kinds of infections.  He is on a respirator because Eve ate the apple of the knowledge of good and evil.  Because of that apple that god put in the garden my brother has suffered more than most people will ever know.  His arms and hands are atrophied and curled up in tight knots.  He receives terrible care from the staff at his nursing home which has caused most of his suffering.  Because god wasn't content to love his children, he needed to feel like they respected him and that was more important to him than love or doing good.

If we didn't child proof our homes we could have our children taken away from us but god made death and suffering his passion, quite literally ^_^ .  And what about this satan person?  An angel who played music or some thing?  Satan was guilty of wanting attention or something but that was wrong because satan wasn't god and only god gets to have what he wants because god has all the power.  Fortunately in my own experience that power amounts to paper chains.  Unfortunately for some people paper chains are real if you believe in them.  Then again, perhaps it keeps bad people out of the streets.  Who knows?

Quote from: MariaMx on August 25, 2012, 06:36:24 PM
I would imagine you extrapolate it from other information already in your brain. New things can be learned by thinking alone.

You have mentioned meditation before. I know little about it but it sounds fascinating.

Zazen meditation is the practice of existing without thoughts.  You sit and you are aware but you avoid processing anything.  The most profound experience people have when they first meditate successfully is the realization or 'experience' that they are not their thoughts.  Without thoughts a human will continue to exist.  Life has a bad habit of teaching us that we are what we believe.  Zazen meditation is a way to realize just how silly the idea that we are our thoughts is.

Zazen meditation also allows the brain a break and the opportunity to reset.

Most people go through life like noisy rivers.  You can throw huge rocks into a rushing river and no one would even notice.

Zazen meditation causes the individual to become less like a raging river of thoughts and ideas and more like a glass-still pond.  And when you are like a completely still pond someone can toss a tiny pebble into you and it will create ripples that spread to every corner of the pond.

Zazen which is a term for seated meditation with no thought can be a very profound experience.  It is also a tool for being able to make the best possible life decisions.  It will also allow you to see more, understand more and be more.

The only way to know who rules this universe is looking at it as its reflection. There are many things to look at, though, both good and bad, easy and hard to find.

All I know for sure is this: 'I believe there is another world waiting for us. A better world. And I'll be waiting for you there'

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
Zazen meditation is the practice of existing without thoughts.  You sit and you are aware but you avoid processing anything.  The most profound experience people have when they first meditate successfully is the realization or 'experience' that they are not their thoughts.  Without thoughts a human will continue to exist.

Ahh, I think I know what you mean. I have experienced this state of mind a few times. Thanks for the information, I will check this out.

http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/zazen.html

What puzzles me is how so many people say they don't believe in God, and then spend a huge amount of energy being mad at Him, and dissing those of us who believe, and yes, know. Being mad at God is still being in relationship to him.

Also, about the crack above about Annah and the "religion" that is "against" her: most of the mainline denominations are learning more about trans people every year. There are openly trans lay people, clergy, and theologians. We are discussing the parts of the Bible that resonate with us, just like other liberation movements have in their turn. That's the Church...and the Church isn't even God. Trans people can hold the churches accountable the way we hold other cultural institutions accountable. And we can make changes, be heard, and walk away when necessary.

Quote from: MrTesto on August 25, 2012, 08:40:53 PM
What puzzles me is how so many people say they don't believe in God, and then spend a huge amount of energy being mad at Him, and dissing those of us who believe, and yes, know. Being mad at God is still being in relationship to him.

Also, about the crack above about Annah and the "religion" that is "against" her: most of the mainline denominations are learning more about trans people every year. There are openly trans lay people, clergy, and theologians. We are discussing the parts of the Bible that resonate with us, just like other liberation movements have in their turn. That's the Church...and the Church isn't even God. Trans people can hold the churches accountable the way we hold other cultural institutions accountable. And we can make changes, be heard, and walk away when necessary.

Well, I don't think anyone is mad at something they don't believe in. No non-believer is mad at God so much as the perversion of good theorized morals into a power struggle. I for one am not mad at all. I think that you can believe in what you want (and let's be honest, you can't truly KNOW of God's existence without evidence. There's a reason they call it FAITH instead of FACT. To suggest that you know God is real is offensive to other faiths who believe in other gods or in anything else, for that matter). If religious folks are turning around to truly believing in what they preach and accepting and loving good people unconditionally for who they are instead of shunning them as mistakes, then more power to them. I've always had faith in one thing: the goodness of people. If the world can turn into a more united place where people can follow their own beliefs, then that's great.

Know that I am not "dissing" you or any other religious people, only disagreeing with you. If you can be a part of religion and actually accept those who disagree with you, then please continue on with what you're doing and teach others to be just as loving. I'm not trying to get into a religious argument; I'm just stating my own ideals. Have a good one.

Quote from: DianaP on August 25, 2012, 08:54:50 PM
...No non-believer is mad at God so much as the perversion of good theorized morals into a power struggle. ...

All of the progressive people of faith I know are also mad at this perversion. (Which itself has theological connotations!) I should have been more clear about another point - I know people who claim they are non-believers who are deeply (and understandably) angry at God.

Quote from: DianaP on August 25, 2012, 08:54:50 PM
... let's be honest, you can't truly KNOW of God's existence without evidence. There's a reason they call it FAITH instead of FACT. To suggest that you know God is real is offensive to other faiths who believe in other gods or in anything else, for that matter...

Huh? I don't see your logic. Maybe you'll allow this to be one of the things we disagree on. My understanding and experience of God has no bearing on whether other people can also know God or have their own very different understanding. It sounds like you are making vast and incorrect assumptions about my theology. I don't feel dissed, and I don't have much investment in disputing, because, well, I know what I know. I don't know your experience, just mine. I think that when it comes down to results on the "earthly" side of the tally, you and I might agree more than disagree, about what justice would look like. I would simply frame it in context of a divine intention, with reasons that transcend the single lifespan of a person.

Quote from: MrTesto on August 25, 2012, 08:40:53 PM
Also, about the crack above about Annah and the "religion" that is "against" her: most of the mainline denominations are learning more about trans people every year.

After pastoring for over a decade I have seen this time and time again. And here is the ironic thing:

It isn't the Christians who are usually against me or is mind boggled that an LGBT is a pastor. It is almost always those who are not Christians who attacks me the most. For example, when it comes to a ratio, for every 1 Christian who attacks me (making fun, bewildered, thinks I am stupid) for being a "gay" minister there are easily 5 who claims tolerance and love for all religions (or no religions) who will attack me for what I believe.

Honestly, I could really care less how people feel about me. Whatever they feel about me, so be it. I have a church who needs me, supports me, and loves me. So when people say "I cannot see how Annah can be for a religion that hates her" I just smile and go back to what I am called to do. You see, they are so focused and only believes that Fundamentalist/Conservative Christianity is the only form of Christian worship out there....even when people tell them there are DOZENS of denominations who embrace LGBT. I believe it has to do with an issue that they want to dislike something so much that if they learn there are beautiful Christians out there who loves EVERYONE regardless of sexual or gender orientation then it will completely nullify why they are angry in the first place. It is much easier to just stay angry than to admit maybe it isn't needed to stereotype an entire spiritual group of people.

I am also ecumenical. Meaning, I embrace all religions and spirituality as long as it does not require harming, maiming, or killing people (as a whole...I am not talking about fringe groups within a peaceful religion).

With that said, I have seen horrible and nasty people in every single religion who thinks theirs are the best, the right one, the perfect one. I've seen it all...from One end of the hyper religious spectrum to the Atheist to the Witch. Everything. Nothing is new under the sun.

Is my religion perfect? Nope. But it's not all bad either. It's just like everything else in this world. You either decide to gnash your teeth against the bone and break some teeth in the process or you can take your time and find the tender meat to digest.

When I see people say "Oh Religion 'A' Sucks...it's evil...it's against <subject>, try my religion" it raises red flags.

When I see people say "Oh my religion isn't perfect. It isn't my God (Goddess) that is evil...its how God's (Goddesses') followers incorrectly represent my diety...but we also have good people and the good people makes it worth it" then I hear the honesty in their voices.

So when people say "How can you pastor in a religion that hates your kind?" I then respond, "How can I not?? Does it not take reform to show people the errors they are committing? Do you think that will happen on it's own...naturally?" Also, having dozens of denominations and hundreds of churches who are wanting to Ordain me...not because of my Gender Identity (many, many churches aren't phased I am trans), but because of my calling just tells me people really don't know what they are saying when they think I am in a religion where people hate me. That's when I smile and just walk away...feeling sorry for them because they will never want to see the entire picture. Just the shadows.

I am not just typing this up on a whim. I have experience in this. Life experience. I go to one of many, many, many Seminaries that has students of all backgrounds studying Christianity. Gays, Jews, African Americans, Africans, Trans, Lesbians, Bi, Pan, Atheists, Muslims. Matter of fact we have a Iranian refuge family living one building away from me on Campus at the Seminary. He served in the Iranian Royal Guard and then his family sought Asylum. We have created a safe space for him and his family to practice Islam and to read the Quran without fear of being killed.

We have Atheists who are taking the Masters of Religion Program because they have a desire to learn the history of Europe, America, Etc within a religious context. We treat them with the same respect we would treat the Pope if he entered our school.

Our Vice President is a wonderful gay man and is married to our Bookstore Manager. Our Dean of Admissions is a wonderful gay man. Half of our campus are lesbians. About 20% are gay men. I am the only trans in which only 5 people and the administration knows about.

Our Church leaders are gay, lesbian, and trans and straight. And our Seminary is considered one of the more "Conservative Seminaries" within our United States Association.

So when I hear people say "Christians hates gay people" I just think nothing of it. They listened to Pat Robertson and all the other Conservative people...and if they have no desire to see the other side of Christianity, then that is something they have to work out. I am not in the business to point it out to every single person. Twenty minutes on Google would show anyone not every Christian is against the stuff people think.

And when people get up in arms because I believe in a God or say they are offended, I too just smile and walk away. Because no matter how much side A argues with side B about whether or not a particular God, god, Goddess exists...at the end of the argument you are right back to square one. No one has won anything. Maturity is when you can respect someone's beliefs in a God while that person who believes in a God can respect the person who does not believe in a God.

Throwing mud in peoples' eyes about whether or not God exists makes about as much sense to me as the /Trade Chat Channel in World of Warcraft on a Saturday afternoon.

Just remember, when you become intolerant of something through a stereotypical belief system (ex: Christianity hates gay people) then you are just as guilty as the religion(s) you talk about. Intolerant.

I think I have posted something similar somewhere else but can't seem to remember where.
I have just read Karen Armstrong's latest book "The Case For God" in which she points out that the so-called Fundamentalists are actually nothing of the sort.

Rather than a return to the theology of the early Church, she describes it as a Modernist innovation dating from only about 1870 or so.  Before then doubt was always a possibility, because there is no way for a human to fully comprehend God.  The Modernist approach to everything started in the late 19th Century with an attitude of  rigid dichotomy on every subject.  Hence the refusal to consider that there are more than 2 Genders, for example.  The Trinity is a prime example, with it being regarded as "The Mystery of the Trinity" for many centuries.  It was accepted that it could never be fully understood, but the effort to understand it was what really mattered.

Thankfully Post-Modernist philosophies allow for a multitude of interpretations of any issue depending on your personal experience or knowledge.

For me, the jury is still out, but I won't bag anyone elses ideas or beliefs.  Unless they are a total ratbag 

Karen.

God... due to our human condition is only the interpretation of whom, what and however she appears to us – and to our senses.
Certainly, not only the person with the long white beard of old, and who knows how many other pictures have been used, including the Golden Calf those Israelites once figured to be (their) "God"...

This is why one, or so many of us, do get confused. Taking the simplistic nighty-night prayer into our daily adult life? Well, soon you try to, you find, or feel "duped".

The book, "God" by Alexander Waugh ISBN 0-7472-7016-3 makes a jolly good case of it.

I'm sure one can read it and not turn into an Atheist - I'm not

Note: Dogma helps a sense of 'certainty' - yet certainty is NOT where it's at.
Maybe with God... but NOT with us, hum.

Axélle

Then what does one do with this statement made by Jesus "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by me." Either it's the truth or it's a lie. There is no wiggle room. He is either the one true way or He is not.

If there is another way why did He take the religious leaders of the day to task. He flat out called them vipers,hypocrites,graves full of dead mans bones,sons of their father the devil etc etc . They were preaching another way yet He did not let them off the hook. If their way was a truth then why was He so harsh on them? It makes no sense unless what Jesus said is the truth and He is the one and only true way to the Father.

What then do you do with these other statements made by Jesus?

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father —and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Translation... 2000 years of culture.... other than our present one...

How about all that then?

It is MY contention that bible punching as if it was a book of current law, is not the way to go. It is obviously not.

Why would there be such a subject as hermeneutics if it was as straight and simple as just that?

Axélle

Quote from: MrTesto on August 25, 2012, 11:03:00 PM

Huh? I don't see your logic. Maybe you'll allow this to be one of the things we disagree on. My understanding and experience of God has no bearing on whether other people can also know God or have their own very different understanding. It sounds like you are making vast and incorrect assumptions about my theology. I don't feel dissed, and I don't have much investment in disputing, because, well, I know what I know. I don't know your experience, just mine. I think that when it comes down to results on the "earthly" side of the tally, you and I might agree more than disagree, about what justice would look like. I would simply frame it in context of a divine intention, with reasons that transcend the single lifespan of a person.

To clarify, I was saying that you can't truly know God exists. If someone felt like they had an experience with Allah, would that prove that Allah exists? No. All it proves is that one person believes that he exists. All I'm saying is that you have no actual evidence. It's fine for you to believe in God, just don't go around mistaking faith for fact.

Quote from: Annah on August 25, 2012, 11:14:59 PM

After pastoring for over a decade I have seen this time and time again. And here is the ironic thing:

It isn't the Christians who are usually against me or is mind boggled that an LGBT is a pastor. It is almost always those who are not Christians who attacks me the most. For example, when it comes to a ratio, for every 1 Christian who attacks me (making fun, bewildered, thinks I am stupid) for being a "gay" minister there are easily 5 who claims tolerance and love for all religions (or no religions) who will attack me for what I believe.

Honestly, I could really care less how people feel about me. Whatever they feel about me, so be it. I have a church who needs me, supports me, and loves me. So when people say "I cannot see how Annah can be for a religion that hates her" I just smile and go back to what I am called to do. You see, they are so focused and only believes that Fundamentalist/Conservative Christianity is the only form of Christian worship out there....even when people tell them there are DOZENS of denominations who embrace LGBT. I believe it has to do with an issue that they want to dislike something so much that if they learn there are beautiful Christians out there who loves EVERYONE regardless of sexual or gender orientation then it will completely nullify why they are angry in the first place. It is much easier to just stay angry than to admit maybe it isn't needed to stereotype an entire spiritual group of people.

I am also ecumenical. Meaning, I embrace all religions and spirituality as long as it does not require harming, maiming, or killing people (as a whole...I am not talking about fringe groups within a peaceful religion).

With that said, I have seen horrible and nasty people in every single religion who thinks theirs are the best, the right one, the perfect one. I've seen it all...from One end of the hyper religious spectrum to the Atheist to the Witch. Everything. Nothing is new under the sun.

Is my religion perfect? Nope. But it's not all bad either. It's just like everything else in this world. You either decide to gnash your teeth against the bone and break some teeth in the process or you can take your time and find the tender meat to digest.

When I see people say "Oh Religion 'A' Sucks...it's evil...it's against <subject>, try my religion" it raises red flags.

When I see people say "Oh my religion isn't perfect. It isn't my God (Goddess) that is evil...its how God's (Goddesses') followers incorrectly represent my diety...but we also have good people and the good people makes it worth it" then I hear the honesty in their voices.

So when people say "How can you pastor in a religion that hates your kind?" I then respond, "How can I not?? Does it not take reform to show people the errors they are committing? Do you think that will happen on it's own...naturally?" Also, having dozens of denominations and hundreds of churches who are wanting to Ordain me...not because of my Gender Identity (many, many churches aren't phased I am trans), but because of my calling just tells me people really don't know what they are saying when they think I am in a religion where people hate me. That's when I smile and just walk away...feeling sorry for them because they will never want to see the entire picture. Just the shadows.

I am not just typing this up on a whim. I have experience in this. Life experience. I go to one of many, many, many Seminaries that has students of all backgrounds studying Christianity. Gays, Jews, African Americans, Africans, Trans, Lesbians, Bi, Pan, Atheists, Muslims. Matter of fact we have a Iranian refuge family living one building away from me on Campus at the Seminary. He served in the Iranian Royal Guard and then his family sought Asylum. We have created a safe space for him and his family to practice Islam and to read the Quran without fear of being killed.

We have Atheists who are taking the Masters of Religion Program because they have a desire to learn the history of Europe, America, Etc within a religious context. We treat them with the same respect we would treat the Pope if he entered our school.

Our Vice President is a wonderful gay man and is married to our Bookstore Manager. Our Dean of Admissions is a wonderful gay man. Half of our campus are lesbians. About 20% are gay men. I am the only trans in which only 5 people and the administration knows about.

Our Church leaders are gay, lesbian, and trans and straight. And our Seminary is considered one of the more "Conservative Seminaries" within our United States Association.

So when I hear people say "Christians hates gay people" I just think nothing of it. They listened to Pat Robertson and all the other Conservative people...and if they have no desire to see the other side of Christianity, then that is something they have to work out. I am not in the business to point it out to every single person. Twenty minutes on Google would show anyone not every Christian is against the stuff people think.

And when people get up in arms because I believe in a God or say they are offended, I too just smile and walk away. Because no matter how much side A argues with side B about whether or not a particular God, god, Goddess exists...at the end of the argument you are right back to square one. No one has won anything. Maturity is when you can respect someone's beliefs in a God while that person who believes in a God can respect the person who does not believe in a God.

Throwing mud in peoples' eyes about whether or not God exists makes about as much sense to me as the /Trade Chat Channel in World of Warcraft on a Saturday afternoon.

Just remember, when you become intolerant of something through a stereotypical belief system (ex: Christianity hates gay people) then you are just as guilty as the religion(s) you talk about. Intolerant.

Once again, I am misunderstood. I follow a philosophy similar to that of MLK Jr.'s. It's not that I don't like your religion; you're entitled to it. What I don't like is the oppression religion causes. It's a "hate the sin, not the man" kind of thing. If what you're saying is true and that Christians are becoming more tolerant, then that's great. Keep doing what you're doing, just try to stay out of government and keep your religion to yourselves. Separation of church and state goes both ways, after all.

DianaP. It isn't religion that oppresses people. It's people who oppresses people.

Stalin killed more Christians in Soviet Russia than Hitler killed Jews in WW2. Stalin did this in the name of a pro secular/atheist form of government.

With that said, am I going to sit here and type out "Atheists are Oppressors because of the millions of Christians who were killed in the name of Atheism"? No.

Because I know it was a mad man who used Atheism and Secularism as an EXCUSE to commit the atrocities that he did.

Religion doesn't oppress anyone. It's those who uses religion to oppress others. 

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 26, 2012, 06:21:29 AM
Then what does one do with this statement made by Jesus "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by me." Either it's the truth or it's a lie. There is no wiggle room. He is either the one true way or He is not.

If there is another way why did He take the religious leaders of the day to task. He flat out called them vipers,hypocrites,graves full of dead mans bones,sons of their father the devil etc etc . They were preaching another way yet He did not let them off the hook. If their way was a truth then why was He so harsh on them? It makes no sense unless what Jesus said is the truth and He is the one and only true way to the Father.

What then do you do with these other statements made by Jesus?

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father —and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

I don't get what you are trying to do with these verses. It sounds like to me you are wanting to present this in a fundamentalist black/Grey interpretation that the only people going to heaven are those who believe in Jesus.

If this is the case, you are reading one interpretation among over a dozen different interpretations of what those verses can mean. It was written in Koine Greek over 2000 years ago in a culture you and I cannot even remotely fathom.

To simply read it in it's American/English version and say "that means <this>" is what seperates me from fundamentalists as a Progressive Pastor.  I study the verses in it's original languages and try to exegite the scripture from it's social, cultural, political, and religious arenas through the use of some really well reputable commentaries and other sources.

To read the Bible at face value like it's a "50 Shades of Grey" does it injustice. It should be read, parsed, analyze, and respected like Homer's works or other ancient masterpieces. To read something from Leviticus and then say "that's the reason why my car doesn't work" isn't a good way to approach the Bible. Nor is reading some scripture from the New Testament and then saying, "What Jesus really meant is this.." because if you did that, the Bible is full of contradictions.

On one hand, the New Testament says you must go through Christ to go to the Father.
On the Other hand, in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus says the only way to inherit eternal life is by loving your God and your neighbor like yourself.

The two doesn't exactly match up if you read it word for word.

What I believe it means is this: if you love your neighbor as yourself. If you show charity by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to the homeless then you are doing what Christ always wanted you to do. So without even acknowledging it or not on your end, you are going through Christ by emulating the morality that Christ wanted to show the world..that Love is the most important thing you can emulate.

It isn't about saying a "sinner prayer" and then start condemning other religions because you got the Willy Wonka Golden Ticket. It's much harder...and much simpler than that. It's all about loving people like yourself...even when yo don't want to.

Quote from: Axélle on August 26, 2012, 06:36:16 AM
Translation... 2000 years of culture.... other than our present one...

Why would there be such a subject as hermeneutics if it was as straight and simple as just that?

Axélle

EXACTLY

Quote from: Annah on August 26, 2012, 12:47:19 PM
DianaP. It isn't religion that oppresses people. It's people who oppresses people.

Stalin killed more Christians in Soviet Russia than Hitler killed Jews in WW2. Stalin did this in the name of a pro secular/atheist form of government.

With that said, am I going to sit here and type out "Atheists are Oppressors because of the millions of Christians who were killed in the name of Atheism"? No.

Because I know it was a mad man who used Atheism and Secularism as an EXCUSE to commit the atrocities that he did.

Religion doesn't oppress anyone. It's those who uses religion to oppress others. 

Okay, to clarify, the only things I said on this topic were that religion is a tool used by people to oppress others (with humans using that tool) and that religion has caused a lot of suffering. I never said Christianity or any other religion was bad. People have performed horrible crimes in the name of religion, making both of my statements true. Do I have a problem with religion? No, believe what you want in your private life. Would the world be a better place without it? Probably.